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Local guitar tech examines my Les Paul Special 2 cut P90's


Etienne Rambert

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I think Freeman asked me what he thought about the instrument.

 

Here it is.

 

[video=youtube_share;W2H-Or8dgVc]

(audio updated)

 

 

I really like the action, playability and the robo-tuners.

 

I am still not crazy about the P90's. But post-setup, it plays real nice.

I like the wide fretboard. I don't really like the sync'd volume & tone knobs. But good grief, this guitar cost $579 w/a $200 gold Gibson hardshell case and the robos thrown in free.

 

It was a no-brainer. This is the guitar I leave out for picking up & playing. I haven't weighed it, but I'd guess it weighs about a pound less than my Les Paul Faded.

 

It's a light-weight guitar.

 

 

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The only thing I learned from that is that your tech can play a lot of notes in 5 minutes and 45 seconds and at the end he says he likes the guitar.

 

You say "...post setup, it plays real nice". What was done in the setup? How did it arrive from Gibson? Why did you feel it needed a setup in the first place? What exactly do you like about the robo-tuners (I couldn't tell anything from the vid except that he pushed a button and a bunch of green lights came on)? I guess I would like to see the robo-tuner compared to a good strobe tuner (maybe in several altered tunings and with different strings). And if thats the sound of P90's, I guess I'm not crazy about them either. Give me a nice set of vintage humbuckers

 

Glad you are liking the guitar, I agree that its a heck of a deal.

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The only thing I learned from that is that your tech can play a lot of notes in 5 minutes and 45 seconds and at the end he says he likes the guitar.

 

You say "...post setup, it plays real nice". What was done in the setup? How did it arrive from Gibson? Why did you feel it needed a setup in the first place? What exactly do you like about the robo-tuners (I couldn't tell anything from the vid except that he pushed a button and a bunch of green lights came on)? I guess I would like to see the robo-tuner compared to a good strobe tuner (maybe in several altered tunings and with different strings). And if thats the sound of P90's, I guess I'm not crazy about them either. Give me a nice set of vintage humbuckers

 

Glad you are liking the guitar, I agree that its a heck of a deal.

 

(a) He installed titanium nut, changed strings (a chore w/robos),

(b) Changed out my incorrect truss rod cover and

© I dunno what else. The action is smoother and faster than before. It wasn’t bad out of the box. But it’s real nice now.

 

I get all my guitars set up. I dunno how to do it.

He does a good job and is prompt.

 

He didn’t need to do much on the Faded.

This one required a bit more work.

 

After I subtract the retail price for the case and the robos,

this guitar cost me about $100-150 new.

 

What do I like about the GForce tuners? it tunes the Guitar - not me. Better than a strobe because there’s no need for eye-balling or twisting tuners.

 

What don't I like about GForce tuners? Changing strings takes getting used to.

 

Also, strobes I’ve owned aren’t that good on the 6th string. GForce tunes them all quickly and exactly. And you can still tune the guitar manually or w/ strobes. Just don’t turn on the robo.

 

What don’t I like about the P90’s? I am an acoustic player. I was astonished how close I could get to an acoustic tone on the 490R & T HB’s on my Faded.

 

What do I like about the P90's? Nothing yet. But I suppose lead players would like it more. This guitar can get a Tele-ish sound. It's an ergonomic Telecaster. No ash-tray bridge.

 

P90s just don’t move me. I think the bridge P90 may be useful for leads. But the neck P90 sounds blurry to me. I don’t like having only tone and volume in sync either. But I guess that’s traditional.

I prefer 4 different knobs.

 

This is the guitar I keep out of the case. It is light weight and easy to play and tune. It's still fun to pick it up.

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I have some sort of innate bias against robo tuners. Seems like one more thing that could break down (I don't like power windows in cars, either). Plus I take snooty attitude that if you can't tune guitar yourself, then why you playing it? Along lines of not being capable of changing strings. The P 90's do sound quite good. Seems would have been more useful if he'd done a bit of "before" setup vid so we can see how much improvement was made.

"After I subtract the retail price for the case and the robos, this guitar cost me about $100-150 new." That is a bargain. Don't suppose it was available without robos and just toss in a gig bag. Reminds me of trip to Singapore decades ago, buying camera: low price on camera, but had to buy overpriced batteries if wanted it. One way, or another, gonna git ya, a gitya gitay gitya

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I have some sort of innate bias against robo tuners. Seems like one more thing that could break down (I don't like power windows in cars' date=' either)....[/quote']

 

They're optional. If a player doesn't like them, he or she can still tune manually. But with a 40 to 1 gear ratio, manual tuning may take some getting used to.

 

That also goes for string-changing. Just do it manually.

 

 

Plus I take snooty attitude that if you can't tune guitar yourself, then why you playing it?

 

I've been playing over 40 years. I'm surprised folks around here keep telling me I'm pretty good too. Dunno.

 

But I know how to tune guitars. I've done it thousands of times. That is exactly why I like robos.

 

Along lines of not being capable of changing strings. The P 90's do sound quite good. Seems would have been more useful if he'd done a bit of "before" setup vid so we can see how much improvement was made.

 

The tech guy emailed me and said he didn't like how they sounded on video. I agree with Les Paul Lover though. There was a lot of processing on that tone.

 

by me: "After I subtract the retail price for the case and the robos, this guitar cost me about $100-150 new."

 

by RC

That is a bargain. Don't suppose it was available without robos and just toss in a gig bag.

 

Yeah it is. Just don't use the robos. Tune manually.

 

For $579, just give that nice hard-shell case away and buy a

gig bag. In fact, I'd pay for the gig bag and take the hard-shell

case off the buyer's hands. I want another one.

 

I'll buy the Klusons too if they don't want GForce. I want

GForce for my other Les Paul. They are the same fit.

(NB: Not all G-Force tuners will fit other guitars. I would not buy a set off EBay without knowing which specific model # it is.)

 

Reminds me of trip to Singapore decades ago, buying camera: low price on camera, but had to buy overpriced batteries if wanted it. One way, or another, gonna git ya, a gitya gitay gitya

 

You may have bought your batteries in the wrong shop. I've been to S'pore. Hated it. But I lived in Southeast Asia for 13-14 years of my life. In addition to knowing how to tune & play a guitar - I know how to shop for camera batteries too.

 

So by now 2 misconceptions should have been cleared up.

 

1. Robos are an option -- not mandatory. A player can tune it manually

if he or she doesn't like robos. Just get used to very precise - 40 to 1 - manual tuners.

 

2. There is at least one player on planet earth who both knows how to tune and piay a guitar and who also likes the robos -- me.

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Does the tuner use offsets calibrated for the tailpiece?

 

 

Sorry. I don't know the answer to that. I suppose I should find out.

 

I can say the size that fits my Special w/a wrap-around tailpiece is the same size that fits my LP Faded, with the traditional LP tail pieces. I researched that much on it, as I was considering buying one new for my Faded. They are the same tuners.

 

People should not buy one on Ebay and expect it to fit though. There is a comprehensive list here.

 

 

Here's the users' manual for downloading.

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Sorry. I don't know the answer to that. I suppose I should find out.

 

I can say the size that fits my Special w/a wrap-around tailpiece is the same size that fits my LP Faded, with the traditional LP tail pieces. I researched that much on it, as I was considering buying one new for my Faded. They are the same tuners.

 

People should not buy one on Ebay and expect it to fit though. There is a comprehensive list here.

 

 

Here's the users' manual for downloading.

 

Just wondering if Gibson defacto supplied the correct intonation by throwing in the tuner and sweetened it with the case and blowout price.

 

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Just wondering if Gibson defacto supplied the correct intonation by throwing in the tuner and sweetened it with the case and blowout price.

 

These guitars were all PLEK'd. That may have included intonation settings. Dunno what all is involved w/PLEKking.

 

But yeah. I have no need for a P90 guitar. The price was so crazy low -- I jumped.

I did need a gold hard-shell case. And I quickly came to like the robos.

 

Sam Ash was selling SG's w/Robos at insane low prices too. But it looks like they're sold out.

 

fetch?photoid=32070411

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No offense, but if it's a chore, then he's doing it wrong, or doesn't know about the G-Force string change mode - no string winders necessary...

 

 

[video=youtube;-AVNmIZBDM4]

 

 

 

Sorry Phil. I have to disagree. A 5 minute video on how to change strings? And you have to do the 1st & 2nd different than the other 4?

 

I've watched that video a few times before today. AFAIC, it's complicated. Push on 3 times, push 2 times, up -- down arrows. -- lights flashing -- inter alia.

 

I like technology when it's easy. GForce makes tuning easy. I like that.

I haven't yet mastered changing strings.

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I have basically three different comments so I'm going to put them in separate windows.

 

First, my reaction to the G-force, aka robo-tuners. I have only seen one guitar with this feature, it was in a music store, the clerk said "hey, look at this" fiddled with some buttons and, presto, it seemed to be in tune (at least as well as I could tell in a noisy music store. And both you, ER, and your luthier say "it works"

 

My feeling is that it isn't necessary and I have a basic distrust for almost all consumer electronics. Our cell phones have a half life of 2 years, I have ton of music and files "stored" on media that I can't recover, the tire pressure light comes on the dash of my car at random intervals, and I've got boxes of discarded gizmos that seemed so cool at the time. Yes, I'm a luddite.

 

But my real question for you and your luthier is how well does it work? Is it dead nuts on perfect tune every time? Is it accurate to a reference (like a tuning fork that I keep in my shop), can I calibrate it? Can it temper the tuning for different keys? How does it handle all the altered tunings that I use all the time (dropped and open and modal and ...)? What happens when it fails? There has been at least one firmware upgrade since it was released - is it a stable product?

 

Instead of answering any of those questions, your luthier pushed a button and waved in my face, then said he liked it.

 

ps - then I saw Phil's vid and my opinion went right down the drain, In the amount of time they changed two strings I could do six and open a nice cool adult beverage when I was done.

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Second, Plek'ing. The Plek machine is simply an automated fret leveling machine. Its computerized so its got to be good, right? Well, maybe. What it really does is speed up a part of the setup that every guitar should go thru and make it more consistent. Its not necessarily bad but the common feeling in lutherie circles is that its only a tool and in the hands of a good operator can do a decent job. But almost every setup technician that I have read says they think that a human can improve a Plek's fretboard.

 

Like the G-force I have very limited experience and I was hoping that someone like your luthier could review just how well were the frets leveled on your guitar. Did he have to do any other work, what are his standards? I have seen two guitars that I know were Plek'd, both Gibsons, and frankly both were atrocious. Thats a pretty small sample to make any judgement on, and very likely I have seen other Plel'd guitars that were fine.

 

So my hope was to learn a little more, unfortunately it didn't happen

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Last question is just a general one. I'm going to reask why you took your guitar to a luthier in the first place. And specifically what did he do (you should have an itemized invoice telling you what you paid for).

 

He put in a titanium nut. What is so good about Ti as a nut? Is it the geewiz factor or is there some advantage. I know Ti is cool, I ride a titanium bike, but why a nut? If the nut is so good, why not titanium saddles? The nut is out of the picture every time you fret a note but the saddle is in play all the time. Does a titanium nut do something cool when its around a G-force tuner?

 

And you have to take your guitar to a luthier to change strings? Oh boy am I going to get rich.

 

Changed out a truss rod cover. Again, you are paying a luthier XX dollars an hour to change the cover? Hopefully while he had the cover off he checked and maybe adjusted the truss rod.

 

The action is smoother. Once again, the consensus is that Gibson is not doing the best setups they could be - what did he find, what did he do?

 

Not pickin' on you, 'bro, but I honestly didn't get much out of your video. I'm glad you are liking the guitar, I agree that its one hell of a deal, and I would love to hear you or your luthier say "this thing was perfect out of the box" or give an honest evaluation of it. Until then I'll pass on the robo-tuners, check the frets even if the ad says they were gone over by some machine, and recommend that people get a good professional setup on any new guitar they buy.

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"...

Like the G-force I have very limited experience and I was hoping that someone like your luthier could review just how well were the frets leveled on your guitar. Did he have to do any other work, what are his standards? I have seen two guitars that I know were Plek'd, both Gibsons, and frankly both were atrocious. Thats a pretty small sample to make any judgement on, and very likely I have seen other Plel'd guitars that were fine.

 

So my hope was to learn a little more, unfortunately it didn't happen

 

Relax Freeman. It was a reasonably good deal for me.

Have a Gibson.

fetch?filedataid=127834

 

I don't know about the fret-work. I'll ask him for you. It's the best-playing guitar I have right now.

 

Ten years ago, my son bought a Gibson SG at GC for <$700. The frets were like railroad ties. I paid $200 for a famous luthier, the late, great Jimmy Foster, to set it up for him.

 

No doubt, a human artisan of his stature can improve on a PLEK machine. But this is a $579 US-made guitar, Compared to my son's SG, the playability was fine out of the box. It's even better after the set-up.

 

So to recap: for $579, I got a bound fretboard, titanium nut, PLEK, a $200 hardshell case and $180 GForce tuners thrown in to boot.

 

A conservative calculation informs me I paid $180 for the guitar itself. I don't know what a PLEK machine treatment would cost. But likely, $200? If that's right - Gibson actually paid me $20 to take this guitar off their hands.

 

Does it play Jimmy Foster-level great? Probably not. But for $579? Gimme a f***ing break.

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Dead on every time I tune it. But nobody around here has hooked it up to an oscilloscope yet to my knowledge.

 

I'm wondering about pitch though. Is GForce limited to A440? Or does it do others like 432 or 444? I need to research that.

 

I agree on changing strings. It looks like a hassle. But the ease of tuning is worth it.

 

BTW, I tune it 1 string at a time. I don't do the strum tune. I've seen it get confused a couple of times on the strums. But it has been dead-on, exact every time I've tuned it. No glitches.

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He's not a luther. I don't yet need a luthier for this guitar.

 

I have been told the brass nut wears out. Gibson gave me a FREE titanium nut and paid for the shipping. So I'm not squawking. But I probably could have survived with the brass nut.

 

The guitar sat new in its box for 2 or 3 years. It's not a bad idea to send it out for a set-up. I know someone local who's qualified. So why not?

 

I don't know anything about your consensus. I've bought three new Gibsons this year. 2 were 2015 models with robos. One was a 2017 w/ Klusons. That's all I know. I gave the SG to a son. I have the two Les Pauls. All 3 played well enough from my POV - straight out of the box.

 

I compare them favorably to a Gibson SG a son bought about 10-12 years ago. (see post below.)

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Fun thread. "You may have bought your batteries in the wrong shop. I've been to S'pore. Hated it. But I lived in Southeast Asia for 13-14 years of my life. In addition to knowing how to tune & play a guitar - I know how to shop for camera batteries too." To clarify this little bit: the shop insisted that if I wanted the camera I had to buy batteries from them. I haven't been back to Singapore in decades... could see the "mallification" and destruction of local flavor and neighborhoods. Could be anywhere and nowhere as a far as identity goes.

I live in Thailand now, have lived in SE Asia since 2000, started trips over here in '82. Like Freeman, I have a distrust of gizmos... especially in this climate mixing heat, humidity and salt air. Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong, and corrosion is endemic. Easy to understand why so much indigenous music in this part of the world uses drums, flutes gongs and xylophone like gamelan (which I love, btw). No strings, no tuners, no moving parts to rust up, for the most part.

Cheers and keep posting. I like your posts

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What is so good about Ti as a nut? Is it the geewiz factor or is there some advantage.

 

​Gibson provided purchasers with a Titanium nut to replace the one that came with the guitars. Gibson had a high volume of complaints about tuning stability. The low friction titanium nuts were furnished initially in response to consumer complaints and then as a default replacement supplied with all robo guitars in general not originally equipped with one from the factory..

 

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Correct. I had to ask for one. The TRC was incorrect also. It read JUNIOR instead of SPECIAL. So Gibson sent both to me in the same envelope- free.

 

It makes sense. Robos probably do create more friction-related wear on the nut. I hadn’t thought of that.

 

I still want GForce on my git’s though.

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