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Why the lack of carbon fiber electric guitars?


EmgEsp

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IMHO, carbon fiber guitars are the future. They require way less maintenance, are usually lighter and more durable, so why aren't there any real mass produced electrics?

 

Are a bunch of old traditionalists holding back progress? Is the general consumer just afraid of change?

 

I mean when it comes to Acoustics I could understand the appeal of guitars still made out of wood, but when it comes to an electric guitar all I see is positives with using carbon fiber. The pickups, nut, bridge, scale length and strings is what makes up the vast majority of the tone from the guitar itself, so why not just use an objectively better material for the body and neck of an electric guitar?

 

Even classical musicians are getting in on the Carbon Fiber action, time to evolve people.

 

 

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Carbon Fiber has made an appearance in acoustic guitars, both as a material added in construction for its engineering properties and completely carbon fiber instruments like your cello. CF is being used to reinforce necks (both with truss rods and to be the rod itself), a few builders are laminating it with spruce or other woods for braces and other internal parts. Here is a repair I did on a brokend 12 string headstock, I inlayed a small piece of CF as a spline across the break (which was then hidden by a mahogany back strap)

 

IMG_3455_zpsbou9tmzk.jpg

 

There are a number of problems working with CF - in particular bonding it to other materials but the point is, some builders are using it.

 

There are also complete carbon fiber (acoustic) guitars. Rainsong is the leading manufacturer but there are at least three others. Here is a Rainsong OM on my work bench

 

IMG_3812_zps1hul5veg.jpg

 

IMG_3813_zpspamao3az.jpg

 

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This one happens to be their less expensive CF plus fiberglass model and has the white added to the gel coat, on most of the Rainsongs you can see the weave of the CF cloth.

 

Rainsong guitars are moderately expensive (at least by your standards) - the pure CF versions sell in the $22-2400 range, the CF + fiber glass "hybrid" versions are $15-1800.

 

The guy who owns this white guitar has another Rainsong (along with quite a few other instruments) - he keeps one at his cabin at the lake and this one stays out on a stand in his living room. All of his other guitars stay in humidity controlled cases - with CF that isn't necessary.

 

In fact, that is CF's big selling point for acoustical instruments - they are pretty impervious to temperature, humidity and the normal bumps and scratches of daily play. Different people have different opinions about how they sound - some people think the are "as good as" an equivalent wood guitar, others point to short comings. When I play this one by itself I think "that sounds pretty good" (like your cello example), when I play it next to an OM-42 I can hear where its lacking.

 

OK, so much for what I know of the current use of CF in musical instruments. Back to your question, why are there no CF electric guitars. First, it only makes sense for a hollow instrument - the stuff is just too damn heavy and expensive to try to make a solid body out of it. The actual manufacture would be relatively easy - make a mold, vacuum bag the CF and any other laminates - its no different from making a kayak or paddle or a fancy dashboard for your car or any of the other techie things. Mold the necks (btw, I don't like the neck profile on that white guitar but that would be easy to change, just make another mold).

 

There are three schools of thought about electric instruments. Some say that the sound is all in the pickups, the "wood" doesn't count. Some say the wood counts a lot - they can hear the difference between swamp ash and mahogany. I'm somewhere in the middle - I think that everything has some effect on the sound of a guitar, but the pups are by far the most important. So, what will a CF electric sound like? The only way to find that out is to build one.

 

Who knows, with the depletion of our great tone wood forests and increasing price of guitars made out of traditional materials, maybe CF is the future.

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Three other minor comments about that white guitar (I realize this is the Electric forum so these are kind of moot points) but first, as a guitar builder I was fascinated by the bracing (or lack of). The CF top tapers from about 0.125 to 0.050 near the sound hole. There is a large CF patch under the bridge, maybe 3 by 8 inches that looks to be the same thickness as the top - in other words its maybe 0.250 total under the bridge. The bridge is bolted on as well as using some sort of aerospace adhesive. There is no other bracing.

 

My whole world of building acoustic guitar has been about bracing, thicknesses of the top and all of the other parts, and how changing the shape or size of a brace can change the sound. It is pretty obvious that since CF is completely consistent and homogeneous they can design the top and not worry about bracing.

 

The second observation is that this is an acoustic/electric guitar - ie it has a built in piezo UST and an internal mic. I did not play it thru an acoustic amp but thru my little 6/12 watt clean tube amp the guitar sounds OK, particularly when biased towards the mic. I think it would be a good choice for gigging, particularly if you were in less than ideal temperature or humidity situation.

 

Last comment, am I going to run out and buy one for myself? Absolutely not, I'm too much of a wood slut. But if I lived on a sail boat or in some tropical wonderland or I needed a dedicated travel guitar I might consider it.

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Hey man, thanks for the info. I'm glad to see people like you with years of experience working with wood who are able to be open-minded in regards to carbon fiber.

 

Is there no filler you can use to make it a solid body or at least semi solid?

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for what its worth, I picked out the HPL dread each time as the guitar I liked the least. I picked out the "all wood" guitar two out of three times against the CF - normally cedar is not my favorite top wood. As you know, there is a whole lot more here - particularly body size.

 

To show how much difference there is between guitars, at the Guild of American Lutherie conference they hold a "listening session" for steel string, nylon string and mandolins. Luthiers submit a guitar for the session, they are tuned by the same person and played by the same person. He plays exactly the same little 30 second fingers style riff on each guitar, the builder then stands up and discusses how the guitar is built - materials, bracing pattern, finish, scale, yadda yadda. This year there were 33 guitars presented (one dreadnaught, a few small bodies but mostly OM size). They ranged from very traditional designs (Gibson 00, Martin 0) to very modern designs (multiscale, floating fretboard, Kashi braced, offset soundholes, and even a few folks using CF reinforcement). No all CF or HPL guitars but some alternate tonewoods that were kind of interesting.

 

There wasn't a bad sounding guitar in the bunch, but what is really striking is how much they vary even tho they basically are all wooden bodied OM style guitars. The guy I was sitting with was so smitten by one that he sought out the luthier afterwards and discussed a commission.

 

ps - my little parlor, even tho it was one of the smallest guitars got some very nice comments about its projection - people in the back of the auditorium said they really liked its sound.

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I had to chuckle when I read your comment. Skis are often made out of sheets of space age materials like carbon fiber, the filler they usually is is wood. It's cheap, inert, damp, holds binding screws and maintains the shape of the ski. Duh

 

As you probably know, many of the "semi hollow body" guitars like Gibson ESxxx are laminated top and back. There is no reason that couldn't be fiberglass or CF just as easily.

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I've SEEN adverts for a few CF body guitars, but they faded away quickly from public view. The first factor was expense. They are expensive and time consuming beasties to produce, with most consumers not wanting to pay the premium price for a still new and unproven technology. A second factor would have to be looks. You either like that look, or you don't, since finishes are kind of hard to do on them. Then there is the most subjective factor: tone. Or lack of. Don't know, since I have not played any. I have played the Rainsongs, and didn't care for it, since I thought it sounded a bit "sterile". It, again, this is subjective, didn't sound that complex, with those little overtones a solid wood guitar has. but again, that's my subjective ears.

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One additional bit of information about that white guitar. The owner brought it to me because "the action seems a little high". Actually, the action is darn high - 0.011 relief and 0.090 to 0.0125 at the 12th fret. As a shredder you would hate it. As a fingerstyle player I hate it.

 

Fortunately Rainsong in their infinite wisdom did put an adjustable truss rod in it (many luthiers who reinforce their necks with CF say they don't need a rod). That lets me take the relief down and since they use a removable saddle (some black magic material, sure isn't bone) I can sand that. However, in my opinion, the neck is overset at the factory (a straightedge is about 0.025 over the bridge) and I sure as heck aren't going to try setting the neck on this thing. In fact, as I stare at it, I wouldn't have a clue how to refret it when it needs that done (and it will).

 

This guitar is about a year old so that how it shipped

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It just doesn't seem like most buyers/players are really all that interested in 'other' materials, on the whole. The acrylic line BC Rich released several years ago was Awesome! They were terrific instruments, but notice they're no longer offered, so that was a bust. ESP tried a composite bodied Devil Girl guitar, killer styling and inlay work, reviews were awesome, again, a bust. Switch 'Vibracell' guitars, same thing. And these weren't even overly expensive guitars. Add in the cost of CF, and you've taken an already small customer base and shrunk it about 400% or better. Until the cost becomes somewhat reasonable, I see no real future for CF in the music industry. Personally, if I had that kind of money floating around, I'd hit a Titanium bodied, single-pickup per string, infinite fret Gittler guitar. Added bonus - the Gittler has LED fret markers for on-stage.

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I just like the idea of lighter guitars that aren't affected by the environment. Its a win/win if they can both get the costs down and properly educate people about the benefits of using such materials.

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I know a fair amount about CF. My first job at NASA was in an office of 8 people that were exploring the initial use of graphite composite materials for airplane construction.We ran a 7 year program with all the major players and a few hundred million dollars to learn about it. There were several issues. Delamination can and does occur under certain conditions, although less likely with an object like a guitar than with an airplane. Additionally, while it is very durable, when damage occurs, it is incredibly expensive and difficult to repair even compared to the original manufacturing costs. I am not talking about minor surface damage which is cosmetic, but structural breaks like a damaged/broken neck. Using reinforcement may correct some of these issues, but since I am not a luthier I cannot make a judgement on applicability for certain things. There is no reason that a guitar could not be mass produced using it. We even saw preliminary concept drawings of full size submarines being woven in a single continuous piece (minus conning tower.) My biggest concern would not be with a totally CF guitar, but one made with other materials also. I would suspect you would have some of the same issues that Ovation guitars have had. Many of their tops break because the wooden tops are subject to expansion and contraction on a different scale than the "plastic" back. That has caused numbers of issues. I own a second year Ovation from 1967 and it has had cracked tops numbers of times over its life because of this issue. Ovation did better with the design and it happens less often, but I would raise that issue as a possible concern.

 

EDIT: Some folks will also never want one because you aren't going to get those beautiful bookmatched tops that folks love so much. Its gonna look a lot like a golf club with strings unless you make them fiberglass like the one above, and even then it isn't like AAAA piece of wood.

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Wood is a really cool material. It's light and strong, comes in different densities and strengths. Is quite resistant to various bacterial cultures growing on it if not maintained properly. Easy to repair because faults don't propagate too far, pleasant to look at, etc.

 

Carbon fiber is a great material for some things, not so great for others. In particular, it cannot be easily repaired if damaged and is fairly expensive. One of it's main benefits is that it is easy to make a shell of something out of it, so yes, it works well for hollow guitars, but the process is not forgiving. Except for weather resistance, there isn't really a reason to make guitars out of carbon fiber.

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For the most part, yes. I almost forgot ESP also did an acrylic release - Kirk Hammet played one live around the early 00s. His was a two-off, I believe, (somebody correct me if I'm wrong on the release numbers) filled with a low viscosity blue liquid. Freaking Sweet!! I'm not that big on the overall look of CF, but am definitely open to other materials. Gibson had a line of aluminum necked guitars, Kramer(?) Did as well, aluminum headstock too. On a different note, have you seen the bowling ball stock fretboard on the EPI Brendan Small Galactikon V? That intrigues me. No more worries on conditioning, etc. Humidity, temp, who cares?

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The short answer is composite instruments are INSANELY EXPENSIVE compared to wood instruments and offer little to no benefit for the typical player. Also, Hendrix, Jimmy Page and Eric Clapton didn't cut any of their famous tracks with a composite/graphite guitar! [edit: these comments are regarding composite electric guitars, since that is the subject of this thread.)

 

It's like wondering why digital modeling amps haven't taken over the amp market, since by any "rational" measure, they are superior in every way.

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I see great benefit to a guitar that lighter, more durable and can withstand different environments without the need for adjustments.

 

What worked for Hendrix, Jimmy Page and Eric Clapton is irrelevant to me. I am not them and so my needs/wants are different.

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I just like the idea of lighter guitars that aren't affected by the environment.

 

That's really the biggest advantage of CF guitars - their stability.

 

Its a win/win if they can both get the costs down and properly educate people about the benefits of using such materials.

 

They'll need to improve the sound of them too if they're ever to have any serious chance of surpassing wood instruments in the minds of many players. Their tone doesn't measure up compared to the best wood instruments - at least not IMHO.

 

FWIW, I was able to pick out the sound of the CF guitar with 100% accuracy in your video. There's a abrasive brashness to the high end that gives them away every time, and that I really don't care for. YMMV.

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It sounds like you've made up your mind that this is due to most people being resistant to change, but that's not it. There's just not enough benefit to add the extra cost, and the sound isn't as good, and they're impossible to fix or modify.

 

Progress is good, but this isn't progress.

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I'm curious Phil, have you ever played a Fly? I know that Ken Parker sold the rights and I have never seen or heard one but they do seem to have a bit of a cult following. I also really admire what Parker is currently doing with archtops (and while they aren't made of CF, they do use some for structural reasons)

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Couldn't you balance the high end with strings that use a material that sound more warm?

 

Like I said before, when it comes to Acoustic guitars I could still see the appeal of wood because in that situation it actually affects the tone in a big way, but in an electric not so much.

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That is subjective whether sound isn't as good, its just different. You think classical players would pay the big bucks for those CF Cellos if they sounded like garbage? I'm mainly talking about electric guitars in which case the material used for the body/neck doesn't make a huge impact on tone. I'm not saying it doesn't make any difference, but its not as much as some would have people to believe.

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It's not the amount of treble that I take issue with it, but rather the sound and character of the treble. Words are not descriptive enough, but it's instantly audible to me whenever I hear a carbon fiber acoustic guitar.

 

Freeman, I've only played a few Flys, and only briefly.

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