Improperly cut nuts

[JimLiedeka]

In the last few months I bought two inexpensive guitars, a Tribute ASAT and a Squier CV 60s strat. Both of them sound out of tune when I play first position chords. It seems the nut slots weren't cut deep enough for at least some of the strings. (Other than that, I have no gripes about these cheap guitars, the pickups are great and the Squier even had the intonation set.)

 

Questions:

Is it common for the nut to be overlooked in quality control these days? I've owned at least ten guitars over the years at all price points and these were the first ones with the problem.

 

Can I fix this myself or should I just take them to the luthier? I'm somewhat handy but I don't currently own any fret files or saws. I'm also not exactly sure about how to get it right except to file a little and retune and check.

 

Also, if I bought a pre-cut Fender bone nut for the Squier, would it be cut right for the guitar or would it still need adjusting?

 

I appreciate any advice.

Jim

 

[Grant Harding]

This is really common. The issue is that once it's too low it's screwed and they have to make a new nut. So they typically leave them higher than perfect. This is the number 1 thing I look at to make inexpensive guitars play well.

 

You can do it yourself, but it's one of the hardest and most critical parts of setting up a guitar. If you get it wrong you can have issues with the strings grabbing and even intonation problems if you don't maintain the angle of the slot. Once you have the slots right I suggest polishing the slots with 1000 grit sandpaper to make sure the slot can't grab the string.

 

Edit: I also rub a TINY bit of nut lubricant in there once they're polished.

[Mikeo]

I bought a new Gibson SG Classic. They totally f!@ked up the nut slot. Good thing it wasn't the slot placement.

 

Took me 3 shots to get a decent SG classic, which is kind of a cheapie SG with P90's

 

 

 

[Freeman Keller]

What Koiwoi says is right on - most nuts are molded and/or cnc milled - in other words they are pretty generic. Because a nut that is too low is worthless, they err on the high side - at least that will be playable. Either your tech or yourself can lower the slots but it takes care, the proper tools and a little bit of understanding of what you are doing. It also should be part of the overall health of your guitar (fondly called a "setup") but you need to understand the inter relationship between the various parameters that constitute "action". To do it right you should have a set of gauged nut files, some feeler gauges and a basic understanding of what you are doing and why.

 

fwiw, today I made a nut for a guitar that I'm building. I use only cow bone and make them from scratch to fit the guitar. I spent most of the day working on the setup in general - there is at least 2 hours in the nut. I was playing the guitar tonight, the slots are still a hair high but I know that its much easier to take them down a few thousands that to take them back up (basically that means starting over).

 

And yes, you can buy another premade molded cnc'd nut that might be better, or not.

[DeepEnd]

You can buy a new premade nut but be prepared to invest some work. In the long run, it's cheaper to have the work done. A good set of nut files will cost much more that you'd pay to have the problem fixed. I've had decent luck sanding the bottoms of nuts (lowering the whole nut instead of the slots) but it's tricky and won't work if the bottom is curved like it is on many Fender nuts.

[1001gear]

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/Off-Topic/acapella-12/31875457-is-your-strat-a-fake#post31875457

[WRGKMC]

A good nut has a big impact on playability. It can go a long way in making a beater play like high end guitar.

I used Feeler Gauges to cut for nearly 50 years. It takes allot of practice but you can do a good job that way.

 

I bought one of these nut height gauges a couple of years ago and it was one of my best tool investments. You can use it to cut the slot depths within 1/1000 of an inch accuracy.

 

 

 

For roughing in the slots you can use feeler gauges in front of the nut to act as a cut depth limiter. You stack the gauges up in front of the nut so they are higher then the first fret. How much higher is a matter of preference. You could make the nut height the same as the first fret to get a zero fret feel. I prefer to have the height get slightly higher on the heavy strings to prevent string buzz. I usually have the top string clear by about 3/1000 and have the strings graduate in height by 1/1000 each.

 

Done right the playability of the strings in the lower registers can be excellent. Just realize this is only a measurement too. The skill to cut a nut doesn't change.

 

The other must have tools are nut files. They need to be rounded or they will cause the string to buzz and thy need to be slightly wider then the string so the slots don't bind on the strings causing tuning issues. I found these to be very good for the price. http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Tools_for_Nuts_and_Saddles/Gauged_Nut_Slotting_Files.html

 

 

You can buy double edged files or use those welding torch cleaners too.

 

If you have a Dremel you can make a Poor mans nut slotting files out of a set of feeler gauges. I used them for many years and they can work well. You use a Dremel cutting disk and lay a set of feeler gauges laid on their sides and cut grooves in the feeler gauges so they have saw blade teeth. Then you can select combinations of the feeler gauges to match the nut slots you need. The only problem you wind up having is the nut slots wind up having a flat bottom. For the larger slots you can take an old set of wrapped strings and draw then through the slots to round the bottoms. You can use a razor knife to round the thinner ones. You just want to be sure you leave a little extra height before rounding the slot bottoms so you don't bring the slots down too low and cause problems. This method works a heck of allot better then the steak knife I used as a kid to deepen slots. Better then needle files too.

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

If the biased shape of the top of your nut is correct and you have suitable string notches, and here I disagree with a few people as all you really need is a small notch to keep the string in place and then a good angle behind the nut, you can just start using a flat file and get the height correct by removing material from the bottom.

 

This clicked for me when I started restoring cellos, double bass and violas, and then it clicks exactly what your nut is trying to do for you and also the bridge on a viola, cello and double bass can tell you a lot.

 

IMO the notches on a bridge should be no deeper than a third of the depth of the string which is going to lie in it.

 

And don't forget, those wound 10, 12, 13 etc are great for round an opening out sizes below them, and finally a nut slot should not run parallel to the fretboard, it should be cut at an angle, so it has a very small point of contact with the string....this is what prevents sitarring on the unwound strings.

 

EDIT:

 

I don't have an electronic version of the beautifully written and hand drawn sheets I have from a local violin, viola and cello maker, but certainly some key points are in here, especially the down slope of the slot and also an allowance for side to side movement, and the one thing a nut should never do is grip a string, and, also the six in a line nuts need this trumpet shape as the plain strings have quite a bit further to go than EAD do. 3 +3 are a bit easier.

[JimLiedeka]

It's disappointing that this is now an unremarkable issue. Thanks for the responses everyone.

 

I'm going to try a ZeroGlide nut on the Squier and take the ASAT to a luthier. The ASAT is a better guitar. The Squier I bought because MF had it for $250 on a stupid deal of the day.

 

Jim

[Freeman Keller]

Jim, stop and think of it this way. It takes me about two hours to make a bone nut from scratch to fit a guitar and the player. The shop I work for charges my time at $30/hour( which is darn low by most standards). A bone nut blank is five bucks and I usually end up putting a new set of strings on - lets say ten. Therefore out my door a new nut is $75 (which is one reason I try to talk people out of a new one unless they totally need it).

 

You only paid $250 for the whole guitar.

 

I'll add a post script - Martin is notorious for shipping guitars with high action and high nut slots. CF Martin IV was quoted as saying that he expects a Martin store to take the time to set up a new Martin for its new owner - as we said before it is much easier to start high and take it down. Unfortunately most people who buy a guitar on line miss out on this kind of attention (however there are some great Martin shops that do it automatically)

[Ancient Mariner]

TBH it's not 'now' unremarkable, but has been so a long time and certainly more than 25 years. If I ever get a new guitar then I just expect to spend a couple of hours doing a setup including nut height, intonation and if it's bad, fret level. The only guitar I ever bought that needed no work was a JJ, bought at a music show.

[JimLiedeka]

I have been wanting to build my own solid body guitars so I went ahead and got the nut slotting kit from Stew-Mac. I'm going to get a Warmoth neck for my first build so hopefully I won't have to do much to it.

 

The Squier now has a Zero-Glide. It's okay, I'm glad I tried it but probably won't do it again.

 

I'll do the ASAT work myself. I knew there was a tiny amount of fret buzz but I found a bunch of high spots when I checked it out with a fret rocker. I'll get the fretboard sorted before adjusting the nut.

 

Just thinking that building guitars suddenly doesn't seem like that much more work than buying a guitar off the rack.

[Cyborg]

In the last few months I bought two inexpensive guitars, a Tribute ASAT and a Squier CV 60s strat. Both of them sound out of tune when I play first position chords. It seems the nut slots weren't cut deep enough for at least some of the strings. (Other than that, I have no gripes about these cheap guitars, the pickups are great and the Squier even had the intonation set.)

 

Questions:

Is it common for the nut to be overlooked in quality control these days? I've owned at least ten guitars over the years at all price points and these were the first ones with the problem.

 

Can I fix this myself or should I just take them to the luthier? I'm somewhat handy but I don't currently own any fret files or saws. I'm also not exactly sure about how to get it right except to file a little and retune and check.

 

Also, if I bought a pre-cut Fender bone nut for the Squier, would it be cut right for the guitar or would it still need adjusting?

 

I appreciate any advice.

Jim

 

Most likely the out of tune issue (99% of the time) is due to the intonation being set incorrectly. Is the saddle/bridge on both guitars "fixed" or "independent" to each string? If you're not sure how to set the intonation on a electric guitar then I would suggest you take them bot to a "guitar repair" guy, not a luthier, as a luthier builds and repairs lutes. The term luthier is misused quite frequently.

 

Hopefully you're not experiencing any fret buzzing, then you'd need to look at the truss rod for proper concavity, if there is on in the neck.

[Grant Harding]

The nut is too high, like roughly 90% of guitars made. They're meant to be tailored to the playing style of the owner.

The "out of tune" being discussed is when the nut is too high and notes in the first couple of frets are sharp due to having to press too hard.

[WRGKMC]

They may not only be high but may bind as well. This is especially true if you use a heavier gauge then the factory strings.

 

Back in the day when you bought new guitars at a music store (often owned by a competent luthier/musician) he'd set the new guitar up to your preferred strings and specs free of charge. Even if it was a used instrument you could barter for him to tweak it to the way you'd like it.

 

Few small stores like that even exist now. Your big stores may or may not have someone competent in tweaking an instrument.

 

last time I had work done by someone else was around 1980. I had been doing my own work for a good 10 years at that point and I had a store do some fret shaping. It came back worse then anything I could do myself and learned how to do it all myself from there on, including work for many music stores where I lived.

 

Today many buy on line now so its essential you at least learn the basics and buy some basic tools for doing the work.

A Fret crowning file cant be purchased for the price or two sets of strings. So can a set of Set or radius gauges, Feeler gauges, Ruler, straight edge, radius block etc. The most expensive essential tools are your nut files, but even there you can make a set from an inexpensive set of feeler gauges by notching them with a Dremil disc to convert the edges into saw blades. (the work better then needle files and cost lest then $5 at an auto parts store. You just need the Dremil too notch them.

 

You could probably get by with an inexpensive set of files like this for $18. The file widths probably aren't ideal. I suspect they are best for thick strings but you could buy a single or two that matched thins strings and use these for the thicker strings. Learning to use them well simply takes practice. Nuts are cheap so you want to buy spares in case you botch the first few. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Guitar-Setup...3D172119909934

[JimLiedeka]

I have since bought most of those tools: a string height gauge, feeler gauges, nut saw and files, fret rocker, notched straight edge, fret leveling bar, and file.

 

The only guitar I ever got a complimentary setup on was my American Strat Plus that I bought in the early 90s which had a roller nut anyway. However, earlier, and cheaper guitars that I have bought didn't suffer from the nut issue. I still have my old $200 Fender Gemini acoustic that was fine out of the box. My Gibson SG was perfect out of the box. I didn't even have to set the intonation.

 

I guess if you buy from Sweetwater, they make sure the guitar is setup before they ship it. I'm likely done buying guitars unless I really want something I don't think I can build.

[Grant Harding]

Different players prefer different action, so there's no perfect answer. The compromise answer is that if you don't know the intended user you make it on the high side so it can be customised for the user.

 

Look up how Martin have traditionally done it. They expect it to be customised for this reason.

[pekelnik]

I got a new J-45 for which I needed to drop the nut slots by about a half on first fret.

[Phil O'Keefe]

My Ric 610 (which I bought new in the early 90s) had a poorly cut nut slot for the G string. I had to touch it up myself. Fortunately it wasn't cut too low.