"Too loud," part 2

[DeepEnd]

Most of you will probably remember my thread, "How loud is 'too loud?'" from back in October (http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-41/31617501-how-loud-is-too-loud). The situation hasn't gotten better and, in fact, there have been more complaints, not just from the lead vocalist but from the pastor. I'm looking for a workaround and one idea is to move my amp and point it at me instead of the congregation so it's more of a monitor than anything else. The problem with that is that my amp will be behind the piano with respect to the congregation. How will that affect what the congregation hears? I figure it can't be good. I'll probably lose any high end. My amp has a line going to the PA so there should be sound coming through those speakers and maybe it will work all right but maybe not. Another option is to replace the Schecter and get a semi hollow so I'll hear more of the guitar with or without an amp. A Guitar Center about 20 miles away has a used Epiphone Dot Studio that would probably be as good as anything, although I'm not at that point yet. My final option is to give up on playing electric--at least in church--and just play my acoustic full time. Suggestions are welcome.

[1001gear]

I forget. Was there a problem with the PA? Just go direct and use a monitor mix you like.

[Grant Harding]

I agree - your amp should be pointed at you and be pretty quiet. The audience should get you through the PA and the rest of the band should get as much of your guitar as they need. Don't be hurt if they say none. They usually say none.

[*BLEEP*]

 

In-ear monitors for all musicians on the stage and practically no amps or on-stage monitors blaring across the stage area and reflecting off of the walls / ceiling ???

 

......eh

 

 

 

[wankdeplank]

Wouldn't you have more control over your volume if you weren't doing a line out to the P.A.? Like you (I assume), I work a day job and play recreationally. But I have played out a few times, solo and with a band, and have never been accused of playing too loud. Then again I've never played to a congregation either. It just seems like it shouldn't be that hard to control your volume through your amp. Did we establish that your amp is old school analog technology and not digital? I recently learned that digital (modeling) amps are so much more difficult to dial in for different venues/spaces.

[WRGKMC]

I've heard this request more times then I can count. You rarely hear it if the music is being performed well. I'm only mentioning this as a possibility and I have no idea whatsoever of how well you play so please don't take anything here personal. But I would consider the possibility, that the request for turning down "may" be the audience saying they don't like your playing or it doesn't fit right with the rest of the band. Maybe its their way of telling you they want you low enough so your playing is masked by the other performers and in the process avoid hurting your feelings.

 

Like I said, I have no idea here I'm simply throwing it out there to reflect on. Believe me I have come across this myself and was always able to read between the lines and understand the differences between actually being too loud or just not a good blend with the other players.

 

It may be you have some weaker players and your skill overshadows their playing and its the other family members thinking its the volume that's making their less skilled relative sound timid in comparison to your playing. Their solution for making that timid player is to make everyone else turn down when its actually that player is afraid to play out the way they should. Its a confidence issue that player is dealing with and you have to deal with it.

 

The only advice I can give is to seek the weakest player in the band and match him in volume and energy. The energy part is the most important. You can still play circles around them but don't overshadow their playing with your strong confidence levels. Its not an easy thing to do either. You have to be twice the player to do this well and not be recognized as intentionally weakening your own parts to let others shine.

 

If you do it right that player will never know you're doing it intentionally. All they will know is they are able to come out of their shell and play on an equal playing field. There is a difference between playing with others you consider way ahead of you and playing on a level playing field. You're less likely to be afraid of making flubs and take more risks playing and when they succeed you go home feeling like you've accomplished something. I'm not sure if this is the problem but it may be part of it and worth thinking about.

 

Being a humble musician is harder to accomplish on guitar then it is on may other instruments. Guitarists are expected to play a leading role in modern bands, but someone playing in a church band could learn allot by studying the demeanor of many of the great Jazz guitarists who played in the big bands. They rarely got front stage status. The horns did most of the lead parts. They played mostly backup and even when they did get their 30 second spot it was to showcase their skills, not dominate the entire stage.

 

Personally, I'd skip the entire PA thing. I've played many churches and would never consider miking or DI with the amount of natural reverberation echoing around. I'd even choose an underpowered amp and turn it up to get good string touch over using a bigger amp that I had to attenuate down so much it farts out. Its something you may need to do for acoustic guitars but an electric guitars midrange response bounces around so much everyone can hear it. I'd dump the PA thing then just turn up on stage. If the sound man balks, tell him to get over it.

[knotty]

[1001gear]

I agree it's possible Deepend is playing out of spec for the arrangements. Church music often has classical style harmony that is very specific about inversions and general voice leading. Even if that is not the case, playing with a piano player and choir is not something you just walk in and fake. At least not at group volume.

[speakerjones]

This is the worst advice I've ever heard as to volume control. Seriously.The worst.

[speakerjones]

Bleep's advice above is very good, but probably not possible due to budgetary constraints and lack of knowledgeable sound people. I'm generalizing here with over 20 years of live sound experience, and having dealt with a bunch of churches.

 

My questions and advice from your original thread went unanswered, so I guess I'll try once more. Amp position in these situations is key. When you're using a PA, your amp should be pointed at your head, and only as loud as you need to hear it. Think of your amp as a laser beam of solid state Fender ice-picky death that's probably aimed just right to annoy the {censored} out of your lead singer, pastor, and biggest donors in the church. Now think of the PA speakers as shotguns of pleasantly EQ'ed guitar signal spread out to the joy of the congregation. This is the ideal of how it should work. The reality of the situation is probably much different depending on quality of sound system, room acoustics, knowledgeable sound people, etc. Also the line out on a budget solid state amp is probably not the way to go to transmit your sound. Mic that thing, or probably better yet, get a SansAmp or similar pedal/DI with speaker simulation to send to the PA.

[Drummer44]

Thoughts:

 

1) Make a recording of a typical session where you're being "too loud" -- and then analyze that to find a way forward. It's important to know "why" they think you're too loud. My first guess: you're too loud. But it also might be they're too soft, the venue's acoustics may be unkind, etc. Anyway, determine the "why, solve the "why."

 

2) Bag the amp, go through the PA, make the sound guy fix it, and have him supply you a useful monitor mix.

 

3) Your idea: Send a signal from your amp to the PA and let the sound guy deal with it, but turn your amp toward you, turn it down, and use it as a monitor. (Note that mix won't have potentially other useful stuff in it, like vocals.)

 

4) Didn't read the other thread, and don't know what instruments, vocals, acoustics in the venue, etc., are like... but sometimes the mix of instruments and the venue and so forth simply isn't compatible. Above analysis may provide more clarity there, but your guitar and/or amp could indeed be something to consider.

 

5) Congregational music is often about the audience hearing the song. Hearing and being able to understand the words. Instruments can often obscure all that. Any instruments, any volume. In fact, sometimes instruments are only there for three (3½?) reasons: 1) give a member a musical outlet (and/or make a contribution to the congregation), 2) time keeping, and 3) hinting the congregation toward a melody they may not know very well (assuming they're doing sing-along stuff). Sometimes #1 can impede #2 and #3.

 

Edit: Another thought is maybe about effects. Some folks only like to hear guitars that sound like guitars. If you're making it sound like a scalded cat -- with some effects box or whatever -- that could impact how the audience appreciates (or not) your sound.

 

-D44

 

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Worst advice? First off it wasn't advice. I was exploring possible causes. I'm sure Deep end determine if any have some validity. Even if I'm way off base I believe there's more to this issue then just volume and I'm throwing a few possible causes that might expand the bigger picture of what's going on there. You cant fix problems you cant identify and I believe he's got something going on here he isn't identifying (or doesn't want to identify)

 

I really think he has someone in that church whose either jealous of his playing or truly doesn't think he sounds right for that situation. Again I may be off base, but either would account for everything he's posted in the past on this same issue.

 

Maybe you haven't read all the other posts he's had on the problem. He's taken all kinds of advice from others in attenuating his amps volume. I even helped him on designing an attenuator box he could use to bring his levels down. I believe his problem has nothing to do with volume at this point.

 

If its not volume what is the source of the complaints? Some 80 year old woman in the front row which thinks the electric guitar is the devils toy? There used to be tones of people who thought this. I battled it all the time I was growing up. You only need one complainer and all of a sudden everything you do is too loud. Its not the amp that's too loud its the ears hearing it that find it objectionable.

 

To me its the perceived volume level has nothing to do with how loud the amp really is. You may think its bad conjecture on my part but when you move from facts to something pseudo like perceived volume levels, its a tough topic to deal with. Finding the "Real" causes aren't so simple and yes, You may piss some people off by even suggesting some of the things I have. The thing is you cant fix problems if you cant accurately identify them.

 

None of the suggestions anyone has made up to this point involving the amp have worked for him. I bet you could stick a DB meter in front of his amp and find its actually reasonable. especially when he's talking about pointing the amp at himself because he cant hear it.

 

He keeps getting told to turn down by someone there. I know He's a smart guy with a fair amount of experience. I think He's tried everything else and is looking for real answers, not the same stuff over and over again. In order to find those answers we have to expand the possibilities by thinking outside the box to find the real causes of the complaints. There's got to be more to this then meets the eye you simply may not be aware of.

 

Let me ask you this question. have you ever gone and played with amateurs who are no where near your skill level? Do you ever think about how you come across to them? If you play with people at your own skill level, then that's one thing but you mix with others on different skill level its a whole different story. For sure, if you're a seasoned player its unlikely those beginners will take kindly to you out playing them.

 

If you're a cool musician, you already know their abilities and gain nothing by outshining them. By being a good mentor you make them shine and inspire them to play better. Who knows, they may wind up being more successful then you could ever dream of becoming. Its happened to me more times then I can count.

[Grant Harding]

So in summary, yes - you're probably too loud in this context.

 

The role that the electric guitar plays in this situation is 80% visual (appeal to the young and progressive) with a bit of atmospheric stuff at really low volume. You're just a small part as compared to the rock band context and you don't want to stand out or draw attention away from the stars.

[moogerfooger]

use a low wattage amp -- mic'ed like a VOX AC 4 or Marshall class 5 or sometime similar. I like the idea of facing the amp towards you - especially if its closed back.

[speakerjones]

I glazed over reading most of your reply, but I was mostly responding to the parts where you say "The only advice I can give..." and "Personally..." which I would categorize as (bad) advice-giving.

 

Anyway, the last paragraph is just really awful advice. The worst thing you can do in a situation like this is forego the PA, crank your amp, and tell the sound guy to stuff it (see my post below - physics, not just a good idea, it's the law). Assuming there is a sound guy, and he has even half a clue, he is the OP's only hope of being more than an ornament on stage at this point. OP needs to decide if he's going to continue with this group. If he is, than he has to change what he's doing. I don't know the politics involved, or the playing level of the OP, but if the pastor and lead singer (read - stars of the show) are telling him he's too loud on stage, then he's too loud.

[DeepEnd]

Okay, to recap, the problem is that, if I turn up my amp to the point I can hear it, I get told it's too loud. Last time, the amp was pointed away from the singers at an angle and it was still "too loud." I know about "too loud." My wife and I attended an R&B concert on the 19th and my ears were ringing at the intermission. This is nowhere near that volume. We're currently a four piece "praise band," two rhythm guitars, bass, and piano, and a couple of vocalists who lead the congregation in singing.

Except for the pianist, who is the church's Music Director, we're all amateurs at roughly the same skill level so nobody is outplaying anyone else. The most recent complaint was that both guitars were too loud, which I don't believe. I suspect the "praise band" is there just so we can say we have one, look how cool we are, but a lot of folks would be perfectly happy if we were playing air guitar along with MP3s.

I don't use effects beyond reverb and a bit of distortion sometimes. My amp doesn't have a "line out," I built an attenuator box that has an extra unattenuated output. It goes to the PA and comes directly from the amp's preamp. The signal that goes to the amp's power amp is being attenuated by about 10dB. You can see the design here if you're curious: http://person2person.faithweb.com/Project.html. The amp is an open backed SS Fender, 65 Watts 1X12. Our sound guy is very good so I guess I'll just have to trust him. My old Roland amp had a headphone output and I may have to try to add one to my Fender. Or this may simply be a "No win" situation for me.

[badpenguin]

I suggest something a little different, and perhaps a bit devious. Next show, point the amp up towards the ceiling at a low volume. You should be able to hear it properly, and the crowd should due to the reflection of the room. Low volume is the key. Next show, the same with the volume at zero. if they still complain, then something more than just volume is going on.

[Mr Temporary]

The semi-hollow isn't going to do anything for you. If your band is playing and you can actually hear the acoustic sound coming from a semi-hollow over it, then anything you do is going to be too loud.

 

I played a wedding once where it was just me on an acoustic guitar and a very good soprano, and I had to laugh when they said we were too loud. I guess it's all dependent on the context.

 

Only other option I can think of is to use a small amp and a direct out to the PA, but have the amp in front of you pointing up at your face like a monitor.

[DeepEnd]

I suggest something a little different' date=' and perhaps a bit devious. . . . Next show, the same with the volume at zero. if they still complain, then something more than just volume is going on.[/quote']

I've actually thought about playing with the volume turned all the way down but then, naturally, I wouldn't be able to hear for sure. Of course, neither would anyone else so it wouldn't matter. In the short term, I'm going to try placing the amp behind the piano, facing me and turned down. If that doesn't work, it's back to acoustic full time.

 

The semi-hollow isn't going to do anything for you. If your band is playing and you can actually hear the acoustic sound coming from a semi-hollow over it' date=' then anything you do is going to be too loud. . . .[/quote']

I can hear what's going on with my acoustic so I figured it would be similar with a semi-hollow. I haven't played one much so I'm guessing not?

[WRGKMC]

When I was growing up any church bands were 100% acoustic and few even had PA's. The only electric instrument might be the bass. The highlight of the music was the vocals, and the band simply accompanied the signers, always being careful never to be a distraction to the voices.

 

That has changed of course. I play with my band at my wife's church at their festivals and several special occasions. We usually cut the gear down well below half. I leave my 3500w rack system and cabs at home. There's no way I could bring that to a church and not have people walking out after the first song. I just take my 500w powered mixer that drives two Yamaha 15" cabs and a single stage monitor.

 

The bass player cuts down to a single 15" cab. and he's as loud as he needs to be. I usually have to get him to back it down so I can do the same. I cut down from my normal 4X12 or 4X10 cabs to a single 12" or 10" "Unmiced" In fact we only run vocals through the PA and the band is still too loud for playing indoors at a church, and that was doing the easy listening music for the older folks.

 

The lever you want is low enough where the people hanging out can talk to each other without yelling. That's around 90db tops. That's real tough on a drummer because they can hit 100db+ on their own just playing normal. If you see people having to raise their voices or not talk at all, you're probably too loud for that audience, no matter what you think the volume actually is.

 

Fact is you don't need to mic everything to sound good, in a gig like that. Clubs, Theaters, paying gigs where people are coming to hear the band voluntarily, no problem, mic things up and pour it on. People choose to be assaulted in those situations. You only have to be sure your bar tenders can hear what people are ordering.

 

I doubt if many people who go to church would be there if they didn't feel obligated to attend. They do it out of conscious and tradition over their own preference. Younger kids usually find the church band exciting, but the parents probably loose interest if they aren't directly involved and are expected to be listeners. Most have probably heard pro bands and know the difference between really good music and not so good. They'd probably prefer an amateur band to be lower in volume so they can chat with friends as the band plays, especially if its the same players performing the same way they did the last time they heard them.

[DeepEnd]

We play to accompany congregational singing. Nobody is supposed to be talking, on their cell phone, etc. This is worship, not a bar. Yes, back in the mid 70's I was in a group that played in churches and we had two acoustic guitars. Period. I know what people expected 40 years ago. The current lineup for "praise band" is two rhythm guitars, piano, and bass. We've had a praise band for several years, although the electric guitars are a relatively new addition (within the last year or so). I very much want to be respectful and play at an appropriate level but I also want to hear what I'm playing.

[guildfire]

Only other option I can think of is to use a small amp and a direct out to the PA, but have the amp in front of you pointing up at your face like a monitor.

 

I agree w this approach. Get a small acoustic amp with a true "line out" to the PA. Works for me.

[DeepEnd]

. . . Get a small acoustic amp with a true "line out" to the PA. Works for me.

Any particular reason why I should get an acoustic amp for my electric? To make it sound less like an electric guitar perhaps? Why not simply play my acoustic?

[speakerjones]

You guys need to get a drummer. That way everybody will start complaining about him.

 

 

 

[1001gear]

Thoughts:

 

 

 

5) Congregational music is often about the audience hearing the song. Hearing and being able to understand the words. Instruments can often obscure all that. Any instruments, any volume. In fact, sometimes instruments are only there for three (3½?) reasons: 1) give a member a musical outlet (and/or make a contribution to the congregation), 2) time keeping, and 3) hinting the congregation toward a melody they may not know very well (assuming they're doing sing-along stuff). Sometimes #1 can impede #2 and #3.

 

 

 

-D44

 

 

 

This. The congregation is there to worship. They want to bask in the fog of piety. Unless of course it's a Gospel place. Unfortunately the latter would indicate that you are indeed out of spec.