Stainless Steel Refret - Your opinion about this job

[ibanez_3120]

Hello, thank you for reading this post.

 

I just wanted to have your opinions on this Stainless Steel Refret I had done a few days ago in Singapore.

 

Could this be improved?

Could you briefly state your experience in this matter?

 

Ref.:

 

Ibanez RG3120TW 1999

Second Refret in 5 years

Previous Frets Nickel Jumbo

 

The exact fret wire used this time is this one:

http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-not-wood/fretting/fretwire/stainless-steel-fretwire

FWSS1100

Bigger than a Dunlop 6150:

 

0.102" vs 0.110” wide

0.042 vs 0.057” tall

 

Thank you

Best Regards

Alex

 

Image Gallery:

http://imgur.com/a/v4b8j

[ibanez_3120]

Update:

 

It seems that the neck has locked itself in position and some frets will not go all the way down. What would you do at this point? Please have a look: Image Gallery:

http://imgur.com/a/v4b8j

 

Hi-Resolution Pictures:

http://www.quebecguitare.ca/2015_09_28.zip

 

Sound Clip - D String

https://clyp.it/tp5rer10

[WRGKMC]

Hopefully you cleaned the slots properly so they are deep enough to allow the frets to seat at the bottom.

After that there's only a few options. for traditional methods, Remove the frets and either use wider tang fret or crimp the frets to fit wider slots with fret tang crimpers like this http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Fretting/Pullers_nippers_sizing/Fret_Crimper.html

 

What I'd do is glue them in with Crazy Glue. Wax the fretboard, wick CA glue under the frets one at a time, then quickly clamp them down.

 

I use a large wood clamp for this with a 1" width Radius block over the fret. Trick here is the wax prevents the glue from sticking to the fret board where you don't want it to. You have to work fast and get the fret seated before the glue solidifies. This method takes about an hour to complete, maybe 2 if its your first time. The wax can be paraffin or beeswax. You can also use vinyl tape right up to the fret but you may wind up with an edge of the CS that needs to be smoothed with Emory and steel wool. I've used both and gotten good results. Its better if you glue the entire fret in but once the slots are too wide, you don't have allot of options.

[ibanez_3120]

Hopefully you cleaned the slots properly so they are deep enough to allow the frets to seat at the bottom.

 

If the slots are cleaned and the right size but the frets won't go down, what should I do?

 

The repair seems to have told me that everything was fine until he started getting the frets in. Then some of them wouldn't go down:

 

He said:

 

GJ: By default they should be flat against the board but sometimes on hard wire like stainless steel on a Refret the board will not be able to hold all frets at the exact same level

 

GJ: That's why high frets have to be releveled and recrowned

 

So basically he started leveling the frets even they we're not all the way down the slots. Btw is it the correct term "not well seated" for this scenario?

 

Thank you

Regards

 

 

 

 

 

[ibanez_3120]

Remove the frets and either use wider tang fret or crimp the frets to fit wider slots with fret tang crimpers like this http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Fretting/Pullers_nippers_sizing/Fret_Crimper.html

 

Could you use the same fret or you have to cut new one?

..They are new frets but I think a first leveling was done on them while they were not seated at the bottom.

 

thank you

Regards

 

 

[WRGKMC]

It depends on the removal. If you don't bend them up or damage them when removing them then you can probably remove them. You will have to re-level and re-crown them after they are all properly seated of course using either method.

 

You could wick the CA under them and leave them as is. Its not going to look as pretty but the glue once it dries will provide a solid base to the fret so you wont have any dead notes or further lifting. It all comes down to weather you want a traditional fret mount or glued in fret. Neither sound quality or playability is a factor here. I use both methods and do prefer to glue them in myself.

 

Gluing does not affect future re-frets. CA doesn't stick to metal permanently and the old frets can be removed just like hammered in frets. In fact you have less chipping with glued in frets. The only problem with CA is it can be difficult to work with. you don't want to get it all over the fretboard and look nasty. If you do use it on your current issue it should wep up under the frets and fill in those gaps. You may have to do it a couple of times per fret on each side with the thin stuff. You can use the gel and get it in a single pass. Then quickly wipe off the excess. I do prefer the thin stuff however because it will draw in under the fret better.

 

Be real careful to not overload using the thin stuff. It will run and leak out the ends and run onto the back of the neck if you aren't real careful.

Applying CA takes practice but with proper preparation and careful application you can eliminate those gaps and be hard pressed to know they were even there.

 

Still Its much better to just do the job correctly from the start. I as well as just about anyone else whose done their own fret work has come across the same issues you're having. Stainless is just more difficult. It has to be properly radiused to the neck and the neck has to be properly radiused too. If the fretboard has a compound radius and gets flatter up top you have to work the fret radius before installing them. With normal Nickle silver you can get away with a fret being off a little and the fret slot will hold it down. Stainless is going to want and resume its normal shape so you need to get a perfect fit before you install them.

 

When you glue you don't need super tight slots. You can seat the frets and get a perfect fit before you glue them in. This is one reason why I prefer it. Plus I have less issues with dented frets hammering them in so I retain more fret material and need less leveling and crowning when I first install them.

 

What I need to get is a set of these jaws http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Fretting/Jaws_Fret_Press_and_Inserts.html

I made my own rig that does a similar job but its a much slower to work with. I just cant justify the $250 for them. Its not like I'm replacing frets every day. Maybe when I retire I'll get back to doing it full time to earn some extra money. Right now, most of my necks are in great shape.

I only have one new one I'm going to redo the frets because it came with those really thin frets that wear out in no time. Its a beautiful all maple neck otherwise.

[ibanez_3120]

It depends on the removal. If you don't bend them up or damage them when removing them then you can probably remove them. You will have to re-level and re-crown them after they are all properly seated of course using either method.

 

Thank you so much for the lengthy post WRGKMC.

 

I wanted to ask you, do you think that the slots are the problem on my neck?

If yes, how to I slot them right?

Could you explain the details... ?

 

Do you really think it was the neck that bent during the refretting and prevented some frets to seat well, or the other way around, the guy did uneven sloting, making the job inconsistent?

 

Thank you,

Best Regards

 

[Freeman Keller]

Alex, when I am doing a refret the first thing I do is measure the old fret tangs to make sure my new ones are the same. If there is a significant difference I widen or deepen the slot to be compatible. That can be a real hassle with bound boards (your board isn't bound). To check I take a piece of fret wire and file the barbs off, if it slides all the way back and forth in the slot the new fret should fit fine. This is a new board but the little L shaped thing is a piece of the fretwire that I'm going to use to check the slots

 

 

Your LMI like gives the measurements of all of their wire - the SS frets all seem to be 0.020 in tang width - depth isn't given directly but you can subtract crown from total height.

 

Boards are often damaged when pulling the old frets and frequently new ones need to be glued in. There are several schools of thought here - I do use thin super glue knowing that any good tech will use heat to remove them in the future. I also PRESS the frets in rather than hammer them - I think I get a much better job with a properly radiused caul.

 

 

edit to add, you can see the little piece of fretwire with the barbs filed on the drill press vice - again, I check each slot right before the fret goes in.

 

Obviously you need to radius the wire before you start and if the board is bound you need to make little relief cuts in the ends of the frets. One other little trick is to back off the truss rod to let the slots open slightly - if its a double acting rod you can even put a little back bow in the neck. After the frets are in I clamp the neck with a radiused caul to seat them.

 

Almost every fret job requires a little bit of leveling but there is not reason for a fret to stand proud of the board. If it does pull it and redo it. As you know changing the fret height (and width) will mean the nut and setup need to be redone.

 

Stainless frets are a real PITA - I charge a lot more for them. They eat up my tools and take a lot more time to get the same level of shape and polish as normal wire. However if that's what a customer wants....

[WRGKMC]

Freeman explains it well below. I'm not sure weather your issue is the slot depth or the radius was off.

There's allot of additional questions that need to be asked. Did you sand and re-radius the fret board. Did you use a radius tool to bend the fret wire or did you buy pre cut wire that was (supposedly) radiused already. Did you measure the slot depths. Did you hammer or press them in. Did you level the fretboard with a straight edge or just released the truss before you began. I could go on here.

 

I like many find a slight back bow makes the slots open a little before you install the frets, then when you release the tension and put string on the slots tighten and grip the frets better. If I glue them in I leave the neck dead flat and use a razor saw on unbound necks and cut through all the crap that may be in the slots.

I do cut through the lacquer on the ends of my own necks and let the tangs fill it in when I trim them.

 

Bound necks are tougher because you obviously want to keep the Binding intact. In those you have to dig them out with a razor knife and file, whatever you may have to get all the stuff out of there and make sure its deep enough to fit the frets. I use a small ruler with the masking tape marking off the millimeters so I can see the depth easily sticking it in the slot. You can use one of those radius depth gauges too if you want to spend the money.

 

On unbound necks I don't need the fret board to grip and hold the frets in since I normally glue frets in. The razor saw I use is just the right width for the frets I use. its not a specialized saw however, its just a saw I came across that does the job so I have no depth guide on it. Instead I take a straight edge and tape it to the side for a depth gauge. A little tacky but who cares so long as it does the job.

 

I can then tap them in lightly and they will seat right up to the crown. If the radius isn't letting them sit right, I can pull them back out and reform the arch until they are just right. With normal wire I can leave a little arch in the center and it will flatten when I glue and clamp it down. Its better to have the crown in the center. If its too flat in the center you wont get the ends to lay down right. The target is a perfect match whenever possible. You have enough trouble dealing with the unexpected.

 

Once I get the radius right I mark the fret where it aligns with the edges of the fretboard. I can then remove, glue then clamp it in on those lines. I then trim them after the glue is dried and do the ends, leveling and all of that. I don't even use a beveled file for the ends. I've done it the hard way with a hand file so long I'm used to just eyeballing that stuff. I should invest in an angled block or make my own. Its just not something I do every day. I may do a couple of fret jobs a year at the most. The exception at the moment is I have like 5 necks to do. I can get two done a day if I push it, but you hands can get pretty sore with all the finishing work so it winds up being like one a week. This way I can actually mount the necks and get worked under normal operating conditions.

[ibanez_3120]

Thank you Once Again WRGKMC. I've emailed these questions to the repairman and will update this post once I have his answers.

 

Best Regards

[ibanez_3120]

Thank you so much Freeman! Will update if anything.

Best Regards

[Phil O'Keefe]

Yes, that's correct - they're not fully seated.

[ibanez_3120]

Thank you Phil.

[ibanez_3120]

Hi WRGKMC, I transfered your questions to the repair guy and I got these answers.

 

I was hoping you would have comments based on the pictures and this new information:

 

The fretboard was resanded to 16" but there was not much work to be done as it was already radiused and straight to begin with.

 

Wire was pre bent but not pre cut.

 

No measurement of slot depth by an instrument. Fret slots were cleaned by a knife.

 

Frets are hammered.

 

Fretboard was leveled with a straight edge.

 

Frets were also installed with a backbow.

 

No Glue was applied.

 

This is the second refretting for this guitar. Previous frets were nickel.

 

Thank you,

Best Regards

[ibanez_3120]

Hi Freeman, I transferred WRGKMC questions to the repair guy and I got these answers.

 

I was hoping you would have comments based on the pictures and this new information:

 

The fretboard was resanded to 16" but there was not much work to be done as it was already radiused and straight to begin with.

 

Wire was pre bent but not pre cut.

 

No measurement of slot depth by an instrument. Fret slots were cleaned by a knife.

 

Frets are hammered.

 

Fretboard was leveled with a straight edge.

 

Frets were also installed with a backbow.

 

No Glue was applied.

 

This is the second refretting for this guitar. Previous frets were nickel.

 

Thank you,

Best Regards

Alex

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

 

What I'd do is glue them in with Crazy Glue. Wax the fretboard, wick CA glue under the frets one at a time, then quickly clamp them down.

 

I use a large wood clamp for this with a 1" width Radius block over the fret..

 

I only do SS refrets now, I find them relatively easy, but I use roughly the method above, and always with CA wicked into the fret slotand visually check that the whole pre-radiused fret is in full contact with the board then clamp.

 

I do not however churn out SS fret jobs, so I have the luxury of taking around a week for each job, so I can get it all right, but then I believe that if you're not gonna do stainless correctly just use high quality nickel silver frets

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

IMO the "no glue" with stainless is a problem because it is hard and I'll use the non engineering term, stiff.

 

This means that if the fretboard moves, dries out a bit the pre-radiused stainless fret will hold it's shape and ignore the movement of the neck/board material and lift

[ibanez_3120]

I do not however churn out SS fret jobs, so I have the luxury of taking around a week for each job, so I can get it all right, but then I believe that if you're not gonna do stainless correctly just use high quality nickel silver frets

 

Thank you Ratae Corieltauvorum!

[ibanez_3120]

 

What I'd do is glue them in with Crazy Glue. Wax the fretboard, wick CA glue under the frets one at a time, then quickly clamp them down.

 

 

Do you use a press or you have the fret clamped as soon as it's in, one by one, clamp by clamp for a few hours?

 

Thank you

Regards

 

[ibanez_3120]

Most people seems to agree with the glue at this point.

[WRGKMC]

I've only done 2 Stainless jobs so far. One was for a friend and one was on a build of mine. I still have a couple of 2' lengths of the regular wire before I need to purchase more.

 

The first stainless Job I did, didn't go as well as I wanted it to. I didn't radius a couple of the frets properly and wound up with some high spots. It was a bitch getting that neck level, Frets re-crowned, and polished.

 

I learned by that experience, the trick with stainless is getting the frets in perfectly from the beginning so you don't have to level and polish. The neck had been refretted before too so the fretboard was a bit worn between the frets. I should have used a radius block and sanded it ultra flat.

 

Stainless frets that are left with the original surface play like glass on the strings. Getting the scratches off the stainless after crowning and polishing is difficult. I probably need to get one of those flexible polishing wheels Stuart sells. The best I could do by hand was to use swirl remover and allot of elbow grease after using super fine Emory cloth and 00000 Steel wool to remove the scratches.

 

I am tempted to purchase a pound of stainless but I been using the regular wire since the late 70's and do better work with it. I really need a press and cauls to do the job right using stainless. I don't have room for a press in my garage because I converted it into a studio instead of a shop. Guess I'll just wait till I need it then flip a coin.

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

There are plenty of cheap clamps out there that will keep frets in place , glue and clamp, 3-4-5 at a time, leave for 3 hours, move on to the next. Challenging with set necks, piece of piss with bolt on neck

[ibanez_3120]

+1 Thanks.

[Freeman Keller]

OK, Alex, just a couple of comments. First, the fact that this was the second refret and your tech sanded the board leads me to believe that he simply took enough wood off that the slots weren't deep enough. Most of the time a board is slotted before it is radiused which means that the depth is less at the edges to start with. Sanding can make it too thin - when I look at your pictures I don't see any gap at the bottom of the tang.

 

16 inch radius is common on acoustics but pretty flat for an electric - most are 12 or even less. It is possible that the board was 12 inch before and by sanding to 16 wood was removed from the center of the board.

 

Either way, if the board is sanded the slot depth must be checked.

 

An unbound board like yours would have been very easy to make the slots deeper. Its a huge hassle with a bound board but still needs to be done.

 

That looks like a bolt on neck - it should have been refretted with the neck off the guitar. Lots of people hammer frets - I just don't have the technique and have much better luck pressing them. I've built several cauls that hold the neck in the press (my pictures are of a new fretboard but the same thing applies to a refret). My technique is very simple - I prebend the fretwire and cut to approximately the correct length, undercutting the ends for an unbound board. I put the board or neck in the press, check the slot for clean and depth, put three tiny drops of CA (each end and center), slip the fret in place and lightly tap it with a hammer. Pull the curved caul down and hold for a count of ten. After doing five frets I clamp my radiused sanding block (the same one that I sanded the radius into the board) and let it set for five minutes or so for the CA to kick off. Do the next five, take a break, five more...

 

Level, crown, polish, radius the ends in the usual fashion. Clean any CA off the board with steel wool.

 

In my humble opinion you have two choices. If the frets are level, well crowned, the ends aren't sharp then live with it. You'll get some dirt in the gaps, they may raise up some (if they aren't glued), you may get sharp ends (particularly if you don't pay attention to humidity). But basically, if they are level, play 'em.

 

If they aren't level or if the ends are sharp or you simply don't like having what I consider a mediocre fret job then pull 'em and do it right. It would be ironic that you've spent extra money for stainless (and long life) but have to do it over.

 

I can't see them well enough to advise further - obviously by asking the question in the first place you aren't happy

[Freeman Keller]

A couple more comments on equipment - my fret cauls are from StewMac,

 

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Fretting/Fret_Press_Caul_with_5_Fret_Press_Inserts.html

 

It works best in an arbor press, but can be used in a drill press. It floats from side to side meaning that the pressing force is balanced across the fretwire. They make a version called "the Jaws" that puts this thing in a straddle grip - that removed the need for an arbor or drill press (and can be used around the neck heel) - but its pretty expensive.

 

My radiused sanding blocks (which I used for clamping) are also from StewMac. I use both their neck caul and some home made ones - UHMW works well, as does wood padded with cork.

 

If you read the LMI link about SS wire they talk about how hard it is on tools. I now use a diamond fret file as the SS totally destroyed my steel file.

 

In Dan Erlewine's book on guitar repair he discusses all the options of gluing frets (including CA, HHG, epoxy and AR). He discusses compression fretting (using a wider tang to remove relief). He seems pretty adamant that some sort of glue be used. If this is the third set of frets I would think that glue is totally necessary.

 

I try to talk people out of SS fret jobs (by making it prohibitively expensive LOL). I also really don't like doing bound boards and have decided not to do any with the Gibson style nibs. Just me - I don't do this for a living and I don't need the hassle