Most useful minimalist configuration

[gmaslin]

I've pondered ordering a custom guitar with only one push/pull volume pot, either with or without a tone cap but without a separate tone control, to use with two humbuckers. I wanted to put out a feeler if anyone ever did this before to get the benefit of their experience. I see the benefits of this configuration as giving 8 useful tone variations, a simpler (ie: shorter) signal path with more of the pickup character and less unwanted artifacts. Rolling off the volume will typically take off some brightness and this tone rolloff can be designed with the right choice of tone cap. Am I thinking this right or is there some obvious reason why this will fail?

[badpenguin]

I can't see 8 useful tones. 1 Pickup? 2? 3? on/off switches?

[gmaslin]

Two humbuckers, three position switch, split coils yields BS, BH, NS, NH, BNS, BNH so you're right, it's only six tones from the coils, not eight but I was thinking two to the third power. My error.

[badpenguin]

Ok, so 3, 3 way switches, one for each [pickup, one for pickup selector, and a volume. Not really shortening the signal path much with that, so why not add the tone?

[gmaslin]

I figure you lose over four inches which when you factor in the expected parasitics, you're filtering everything above 2.8KHz so you lose the second harmonic on everything from the top D (22nd fret) and you're probably going to hear the effect from the 20th fret. This doesn't even account for the noise of the second pot when it's in the circuit or its loading effect. You can probably EQ it back and if you're an avid FX user, you might not hear any difference but electrically, the one pot circuit will show the character of the pups more clearly than a standard configuration. To add a little more spice to this mix you can put a bleeder on the single coil selection and keep the standard tone cap on the humbuckers so you can retain those high scratchy funk tones at low volume. The more I think about this, the more advantages I see but I really don't want to put up the scratch to make a custom ax unless I'm absolutely sure it will be a success so keep the negatives coming. For the record, it's only one three position switch, not three so the wire savings can be even greater in some circumstances.

[gardo]

This is why I like no load tone controls

http://www.allparts.com/EP-4186-000-CTS-No-Load-500K-Pot_p_1391.html

[DeepEnd]

Given that a typical amp cable is measurable in feet, I'm not sure how much difference 4 inches of wire more or less is going to make.

[gmaslin]

DeepEnd

Yes, the cable is also a factor but we are in the wireless age now particularly in an FRFR venue.

 

Gardo

The no load pot doesn't address the wire that's there to pick up RF noise.

[badpenguin]

I think that worrying over the 4 inches of wiring is a little anal, considering the loss with the wireless signal. And Gardo's suggestion of the no load pot,.makes perfect sense. You're going to add all sorts of sound options with the switching, why not add the tone pot? Do you honestly think you will hear any difference with the 4 inches of wire?

 

Another possible route would be making it a circuit board to eliminate the wire altogether.

[gmaslin]

badpenguin

What loss of frequency is related to wireless? The inches of wire in the cavity are not just parasitic additives, they're also RF receptors. I've already stated why I'd prefer to avoid a second pot. A circuit board as a buffer or active circuit introduces other issues and though I agree that is a good way to design what I want, it is a much more complicated solution.

[badpenguin]

Personally never liked wireless, so that's my own bias. If you have it properly shielded, you won't have the RF issues. And the circuit board, like Gibson is using, isn't active, it's a simple way to go without the wires.

I use the tone control as part of my sound. So of course I will argue for the inclusion of one on any guitar.

[gmaslin]

badpenguin

There are lag issues and some players sense something like an unnatural WAH effect with wireless but wireless seems to be immune to HF loss unlike long cable runs. Lots of players would agree with you and I know I'm in the minority believing a single control can do an adequate job on both volume and tone but the math seems to indicate it can. I'm here to discover as many negatives as I can so keep 'em comin'. Does anyone know a reason why a tone cap or bleeder won't work properly on a volume control?

[DeepEnd]

DeepEndYes' date=' the cable is also a factor but we are in the wireless age now particularly in an FRFR venue. . . .[/quote']

Just what does "FRFR" mean in this context? How is a guitar plugged into a cable less "for real" (which, as far as I know, is what "FRFR" means) than the same guitar with a wireless connection? As for using a tone cap with a volume control, it sounds like you want a treble bleed: http://www.ratcliffe.co.za/articles/volumepot2.shtml.

[gmaslin]

DeepEnd

FRFR is the acronym for "Full Range Frequency Response" like with a PA (Public Address) system or digital recording environment. The issues I'm concerned with won't matter much with a direct connection to a solid state amp that is miked because there are bigger problems to worry about and a smart engineer can EQ the niggling problems away but wouldn't it be better to not have them in the first place?

[DeepEnd]

I see. So a direct connection isn't "full range," a solid state amp isn't "full range," and an instrument mike isn't "full range." Only whatever gear you use is "full range." That explains a great deal. Quite honestly, the issues you're concerned about won't matter much if at all with a wireless connection to a tube amp that isn't miked either.

[gmaslin]

DeepEnd

Beside being a bit snide and hostile, your response seems to imply that you believe my characterization of a direct cable connection to an amp is wrong or misleading in some way. Do I understand you correctly? This is really quite easy to clear up. Provide some examples of what you believe are FRFR amp/cabinet/cable configurations.

[DeepEnd]

No intention of hostility. I simply thought I encountered a whiff of BS. It's really not that hard to figure out. In an ideal world, whatever comes out of the guitar comes out of the speakers. But it's not that simple. Given the contributions/effects of pickups, amps and speakers, not to mention various pedals, the effects of a few inches of wire are minimal. A wireless connection can also have issues with A/D conversion artifacts. Plus, there are wires connecting the amp to the speakers. I'm simply not convinced by a long shot that a direct cable connection or a SS amp is significantly less "FRFR," given a minimal run of quality cable and a well designed amp.

[gmaslin]

Okay, let's see where the BS really is. Name an amp/cabinet or combo that you believe is FRFR.

[Mr.Grumpy]

Replying to trolls is a waste of time.

[DeepEnd]

Okay' date=' let's see where the BS really is. Name an amp/cabinet or combo that you believe is FRFR.[/quote']

It depends on what you mean by "full range" doesn't it? A guitar amp probably isn't "full range" by your definition. (Speaking of which, I can't find an official definition of "Full Range." Isn't it nice to be able to define your own terms? It means you automatically win the argument.) Guitar speakers typically roll off below 120 Hz or so and drop off above maybe 5 or 6KHz. Human hearing theoretically goes from 20Hz to 20KHz so that's not "full range." But electric guitars don't exist in a vacuum. Unlike an acoustic guitar, an electric needs an amp to produce sound. The guitar and amp work in symbiosis. It's possible to build an amp that goes clear up to the FM radio band but the speakers, being mechanical devices, are the limiting factor. So the "full range" of an electric guitar is what comes out of the amp and speaker, and most good combo amps are capable of reproducing that range. So, are there combo amps that are "full range" in that respect? Yes. Then again, if you're swooning over the disastrous effects of four whole inches of wire, you probably don't consider that "full range." The truth is, speakers that actually produce 20Hz-20KHz are rare, large and expensive.