Polytune Clip On

[WRGKMC]

Its not like I don't have a bunch of tuners already including a strobe, but I thought these were too cool to pass up for $50. The cool thing is you can see the tuning for all six strings at the same time. Its especially useful for floating whammy bars where you tune one string up and the other five tune down slightly.

 

I want to see how well it does on some of my thin necked guitars where the relief can vary a little. The specs say it has .02 cent accuracy which is really good. I'd prefer the plug in type that run on an adaptor but they're double the price. This may still find its use however. I'll just have to buy extra CR2032 batteries.

 

 

[DeepEnd]

Happy New Tuner Day.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Very cool - happy new tuner day!

 

I'd be interested in reading your thoughts about it once you've tried using it for a while. In particular I'd be most interested in knowing about its accuracy, freedom from or susceptibility to glitching (particularly in a noisy environment, such as you'd find on stage in a club), if it's easy to use or not, and what the battery life is like.

[Phil O'Keefe]

PS What guitars do you have with thin necks?

[WRGKMC]

PS What guitars do you have with thin necks?

 

I think its mostly the all maple Tele necks. The Affinity Tele and several other DIY builds with similar Tele necks can change pitch by several cents just sitting back in a chair. There's definitely nothing wrong with the setups.

 

I'm highly critical on setting them to the best setting for the particular instrument too. I like it so I can just blow on the strings and get them to sound right. It really makes a "Huge" difference in the way they feel and sound.

 

I do have some high end guitars too and I'm able to match the playability of them on my lower end guitars. The budget necks just don't retain the settings as well because the necks tend to change under tension allot, probably from temp and humidity or just the quality of the wood.

 

The rosewood capped Strat necks are much better and have much less flex. My Gibson with ebony fret boards guitars don't have the issue much either.

 

My Ric is thin all the way up but its got dual truss rods and an thick fret board. That thing is rock solid and never needs to be touched. I haven't had to touch the truss or the setup on that one in about 25 years. I only tweak I even need is after normal fret maintenance.

 

Just goes to show, good materials and better builds have a big impact on reliability.

 

My Epi Dot is not so hot. Its another guitar you can again sit back in a chair and have the pitch go up a few cents. The plywood body on the thing is beginning to warp near the neck so the body joint isn't as solid as it should be. I already had to re-glue the top down to the neck block but its past its prime.

 

Allot of these cheap necks have green wood that wasn't properly kiln dried. They may look good on the outside but actually wind up being a nightmare in disguise. Just because its maple it doesn't mean its the same quality you get with your high end Fenders because I own one of those too and never have to mess with it. I doubt many of these china factories know the trade secrets involved in curing wood older companies like Gibson do or they just don't bother with it and are looking for a fast buck.

 

There's a reason better woods cost more and you shouldn't fool yourself into thinking budget stuff is even close to being the same. You may get lucky and find a good one but I think many aren't the right species or aren't grown in the right environment. The necks I have do feel good. They have the shapes I like but they may take 10 times amount of tweaking to maintain a good setup.

 

I have about 9 other thicker necked guitars, of all types don't have the issues with them or its so small its negligible. I do like the thin ones for speed playing leads so I Just have to keep them tweaked.

[WRGKMC]

I'll let you know. I have used clip on mics with normal tuners and they work fairly well. The note duration isn't the best however, and you have to find a sweet spot in the neck where the piezo element picks up the best tones.

 

The specs say .02 cents but I'm a bit skeptical. My Planet waves strobe is .1 cent and I question its accuracy. Both may be exaggerated but well see. I've used the Strobe for a year and its really good but my ears are still needed quite a bit. There's more to string tone and playability then just pitch.

 

Anyway, I just checked the shipping, looks like its been delivered so I'll be trying it out tonight.

[WRGKMC]

Well I got it last night. It was smaller then I expected, about the size of a very large tie clip. Installed the battery and it powered up without any issues.

 

Get this, in the box was a Free promotional code for a copy of the Polytune DAW plugin. Its normally on sale for $39 right now and its a free download with the code you get with the purchase of the clip on. I just downloaded it and will be trying it out on my DAW today. http://www.tcelectronic.com/polytune-plug-in/ Looks like it works like the hardware version. I'll have to review that later too.

 

The clip to the clip on folds out. its a metal spring clip so it looks very durable. I looked to see if there was a Piezo element on the clip but couldn't see any wires between the rubber pads and the unit. My conclusion is either the metal clip is the conductor to the Piezo element inside the rubber pads or the entire clip resonates and the element is inside the unit. I don't know which but its nice to know there isn't some thin wire that can get broken.

 

I clipped it on to 6 different guitars so far for testing. When I strum the six open strings it works exactly as intended. You see which strings are flat and sharp. The speed of the led elements are smooth and steady, practically no jumping around. The duration of them showing was a big concern of mine too. That was an unnecessary worry. The duration seems to be a good solid 30 before some of the led's fade.

 

During this test I tried strumming hard and lightly. Some tuners go nuts with a hard pick attack, this one didn't. I did get the low E and A string twang sharp for a second before it settled down. I came to find out those two strings on that guitar had slightly sharp intonation. I fixed that and the strings twanging sharp open disappeared. Bingo, just what I was looking for.

 

When I picked single strings the tuner automatically switched to the needle mode. I was then able to check my intonation. This is where the tuner shows its accuracy. The LED's to the left or right of center will gradually dim brighter if its of in pitch by even the slightest amount. The tuners on my first guitar tested have 18:1 ratios and I was barely cracking them making fine tuning changes. Same setting the intonation, I was turning the intonation screws 1/16 of a turn and seeing the results. My Strobe will see these changes too, but the stability of this meter is so much better, I can get things zeroed in on a 1:1 basis ultra fast.

 

I then tested the guitar by ear plugged in and gained up. String beating between notes playing chords was practically non existent after making those micro tweaks the tuner detected. I also compared the tuning to the strobe which was using the pickups. It did show some strings slightly sharp in comparison to the polytune yet the instrument was tuned better with the polytune. It may be the difference between the pickup seeing only a small area of the string vs the clip on hearing the body resonance or it may be the difference in accuracy between the two. Don't know which. Maybe when I get the plugin going I can compare it to the clip on.

 

I tried the tuner on my Les Paul which is a very finicky guitar to set up intonation. Its got a shorter scale and lower ratio tuners which makes tweaks very difficult to zero in. My worries were unfounded. The tuner did a fantastic job on it. I had two strings, the G and low E with slightly sharp intonation and after tweaking it played like a dream.

 

Next was the Epi Dot. It had set for awhile and was about a half tone flat overall. I quickly tuned it to pitch and checked the intonation. Again, I found a couple of strings had slightly sharp intonation which I corrected. This guitar is normally a best to tweak because the saddle screws have so much schlock in them. No problem for this tuner however. I was also able to detect the bass side of the bridge was a tad low too. I could tell by the way the open strings vs the 12th fret were reacting. The open bass string would twang sharp and the 12th required extra pressure. I tweaked the height 1/16 on the low side and both were resolved.

 

The last guitar I tried was a strat build with a floating whammy. This is my favorite whammy guitar because its does those incredible dive bombs and returns to tune. I can do my Jeff Beck stuff on this one and its wonderful to play. I connected the tuner and began to test and intonate. I could tell things were going south quickly. I plugged it in and played it and it sounded awful. I said to myself, what the heck is going on here. I wound up breaking out a ruler, setting the saddles back to specs, using the strobe for fine tuning and doing the rest by ear. I tried the clip on again, and it wanted to take me south again.

 

This morning I woke up and it came to me. The clip on picks up body resonance. This means any spring resonance will be heard clearly and confuse the tuner. I took a piece of soft foam and stuck it under the springs to deaden them and bingo, the tuner was working the way it was supposed to. . Using a plugin tuner this isn't an issue.

[WRGKMC]

As far as the down sides, I haven't found many and the ones I did weren't unexpected. Getting a good spot on the headstock so you have good sound conductance is important. I did get a few of the strings that failed to register or sustain properly. I simply reseated the clip on and made sure it was flat on the top of the headstock and the notes appeared the way they should.

 

Second, when testing single notes or switching strings, dampening strings is important. A guitar tuned to pitch is like a reverb spring that can resonate. Dampening the strings prevents syncopated resonations and overtones in other strings from sounding and throwing the tuner off. Picking a single string with the others open can throw it into multistring mode so dampening all strings except the one you're checking prevents this.

 

Third, the tuner times out and shuts off, even when its in use. You have maybe 3~5 minutes to tune before it powers down and you have to turn it back on. This is a battery saving feature which is fine for me. It is a little annoying but its still better then having to replace the battery prematurely.

 

4th, Polyphonic tuning seems to only work with the open strings. I was hoping it would work with barred strings in different positions. This would be wonderful because you could test the string tensions at different points along the neck with multiple strings held down which can cause barred chords to sound sharp in comparison to single fretted notes.

 

The small instruction sheet does show a chromatic mode using the buttons on the side. I haven't messed with it yet. I believe it can be used to shift the open string registers. It may be, you can shift the polyphonic tuning up or down in registers. If so this may allow for testing barred notes holding all six strings down at the 5th, 7th and 12th frets which I often do to tweak string tension along the entire fretboard.

 

Its not a huge problem because I can still check any single note while holding down multiple strings and like I do with a normal tuner, and compare it to a single string being held down.

 

The other thing that I didn't mention which is very cool is when you do hold down a single string and pull on the string end to end at the fret to make the string sharper or flatter it shows up on the meter in 1:1 scale. This is very handy too. If your string is only slightly sharp at an octave you'll immediately know if its being caused by your finger pressure or if the intonation is off.

 

That's about it. With the exception of the spring resonation tuning the whammy on the one guitar, I find this tuner very high on my list so far. I do have a Boss, Sabine, Planet Waves, Fender, A Conn and several others built into multi effects pedals as well as maybe a dozen of software based tuners. This little clip on gets the job done as well if not much better then the others. The poly tuning is incredibly fast and its accuracy doing setups is extremely accurate.

 

The way it filters out garbage noise and locks onto a note is excellent so I'd have to give it a :thu::thu: rating over my other tuners.

Add to that I got a free plugin version?

[Preacher]

Thanks for the detailed review, that was excellent.

 

[knotty]

Sorry but I think the Chinese have been making wooden instruments MUCH longer than Gibson or Fender. I think they know how to cure wood.

Whether the cheaper factories bother is a different issue.

[WRGKMC]

Dam, the Plugin is win 7 only and my DAW is Vista. I don't see why they'd do that. The two operating systems are essentially the same.

 

I saved the copy in case I ever upgrade, but that may not be for awhile.

[WRGKMC]

Sorry but I think the Chinese have been making wooden instruments MUCH longer than Gibson or Fender. I think they know how to cure wood. Whether the cheaper factories bother is a different issue.

 

If you feel the need to defend their low quality products, be my guest. It's a free world where I live.

 

I reserve the right to express my own opinions based on my own personal experience and I judge the quality of the products I've purchased first hand.

 

As far as China's history goes, Its horrific. Its true they built their own folk instruments and played their own traditional music for thousands of years but when it comes to modern western instruments they are very new at it. They have no history in making western instruments and in fact had banned all western musical instruments and the music they produce ever since the communists began to take power there. They destroyed all western instruments and banned all western music from being performed or played there. People who were found with classical instruments were either imprisoned, sent to reeducation (brain washing) camps or killed.

 

All documentation, music, manufacturing, of any musical instruments became part of the communist state. Western music especially was considered to be illegal and were purged from their society. The country's production of any western instruments ceased for at least 50 years and I doubt many builders of their own folk instruments survived to pass their trade down to their children.

 

My comments are not political however, just factual. Guitars do date back thousands of years and Companies like Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker still make some of the best and I use them as a benchmark against all the budget imports I come across.

 

As of now, My experience tells me many of their companies don't use shed storage for drying the woods slowly. They may use kiln drying but their results are highly questionable. My opinion is most use allot of green wood and maintaining proper humidity levels is purely low tech guesswork. .

 

Here's a small sample of some of the necks I've purchased from their largest manufacturers. All of them have the symptoms of wood curing problems and its the basis of my criticism.

 

This neck is new. I purchased it maybe 6 months ago and has never been mounted. It was straight when I got it but you can clearly see what's happening here.

 

I place the straight edge on the neck near the headstock

 

 

You can see how back bowed its become. There's no truss pressure on this neck at the moment. I don't know if I can salvage this one. I may have to remove the frets and plane the neck flat again. I don't think even the thickest strings can correct this back bow but I will likely try that first.

 

In my book, this is not high quality craftsmanship. The wood grain looks OK and the materials are average, but again, I doubt this wood was properly cured. Its most likely green with humidity levels much too high and should not have been assembled until that humidity level was low enough.

 

Experienced Manufacturers not only cure the wood to drive the humidity out, they also rehumidify it to the proper levels before assembly. I don't know what part of the process they are screwing up on. Maybe all of it. I only see the results which are blatantly obvious to me. If you think they deserve defending, then again be my guest.

 

[gdsmithtx]

Great, thorough review of the tuner; thanks.

 

Regarding the PC: Is it a really old machine? If it's got Vista, I'm guessing it is.

 

Regardless, if it can run Vista well, it should run Win 7 (in addition to being much more stable, Win7's hardware requirements were lower than Vista's). One of the main problems with Vista is that lots of OEM vendors installed it on machines that couldn't really handle it, so it ran like crap on a lot of systems. I never had any major problems on Vista because I build my own systems and they're always hi performance.

 

Anyway, if you upgrade to Windows 7 and run Windows Update a few times to get your system fully up to date, you'll almost immediately be eligible for a free upgrade to Windows 10, which will be released on the 29th. You'll see a the windows logo notification button that appears on the taskbar; click it to "reserve" your copy, and you can claim the Win 10 upgrade any time in the next full calendar year after reserving it.

 

Plus, you'll also get use of the free plugin you got with the tuner.

 

So if your machine can handle Windows 10, you can upgrade your OS three full levels (win 7, win 8 & win 10) for the price of one upgrade copy. You can find legit Win 7 upgrade copies on ebay for $50-60 (http://www.ebay.com/bhp/windows-7-upgrade).

 

Win 10 min requirements: http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-will-your-pc-run-it/

[WRGKMC]

Here's some more.

 

This one came in fine and was mounted on a guitar for maybe 6 months and started to back bow. It continued to back bow for about a year and a half with no truss pressure. I eventually removed the frets and put it on a belt sander to level it.

 

 

Here you can see the fret board had to be taken down 50% to get it level. This neck wound up with no radius and its actually a cool guitar to play. The neck feels like a classical guitar and feels excellent playing chords, but its obvious why this back bowing occurred. Rosewood is an oily wood. Its not going to dry out very quickly and in fact resists moisture. The maple was green with high moisture content. As it dried out it began to shrink and caused the neck to back bow.

 

Too bad they didn't put a dual tension truss in these necks. You could then forward bow the necks to compensate.

 

 

 

 

 

Here's my latest one. I hold down the headstock on a flat surface........

 

 

 

 

You can see the gap on the one side easily accommodates my 1/2 mm ruler. The twist on this neck is at least 1mm. The fret job is horrendous as well.

 

I usually re-fret my necks anyway and I may be able to salvage this one with some fret board leveling in combination with super jumbo frets leveled. I'll likely let this one set for 6 months and check it regularly.

 

Again, in my book, these are symptoms of green wood drying out and shrinking. Construction is as good as any other budget Fender neck I've seen, but the problem is quality control in manufacturing and it all points to them not taking the time to cure their wood properly. They just cut it, slap it together, finish it and sell it for a quick buck. As I said, the problems are hidden inside, not outside.

 

 

 

There are companies like Epiphone who set up factories in that country who do make the instruments properly. That skill didn't come from within that country however, it came from the west. I suppose they will eventually fix their problems the same way as Japan did. It took Japan about 30 years before they actually made some high quality guitars. Much of the junk before then had all the same problems China is having now.

 

 

 

 

[knotty]

 

If you feel the need to defend their low quality products, be my guest. It's a free world where I live.

 

I reserve the right to express my own opinions based on my own personal experience and I judge the quality of the products I've purchased first hand.

 

As far as China's history goes, Its horrific. Its true they built their own folk instruments and played their own traditional music for thousands of years but when it comes to modern western instruments they are very new at it. They have no history in making western instruments and in fact had banned all western musical instruments and the music they produce ever since the communists began to take power there. They destroyed all western instruments and banned all western music from being performed or played there. People who were found with classical instruments were either imprisoned, sent to reeducation (brain washing) camps or killed.

 

All documentation, music, manufacturing, of any musical instruments became part of the communist state. Western music especially was considered to be illegal and were purged from their society. The country's production of any western instruments ceased for at least 50 years and I doubt many builders of their own folk instruments survived to pass their trade down to their children.

 

My comments are not political however, just factual. Guitars do date back thousands of years and Companies like Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker still make some of the best and I use them as a benchmark against all the budget imports I come across.

 

As of now, My experience tells me many of their companies don't use shed storage for drying the woods slowly. They may use kiln drying but their results are highly questionable. My opinion is most use allot of green wood and maintaining proper humidity levels is purely low tech guesswork. .

 

Here's a small sample of some of the necks I've purchased from their largest manufacturers. All of them have the symptoms of wood curing problems and its the basis of my criticism.

 

This neck is new. I purchased it maybe 6 months ago and has never been mounted. It was straight when I got it but you can clearly see what's happening here.

 

I place the straight edge on the neck near the headstock

 

 

You can see how back bowed its become. There's no truss pressure on this neck at the moment. I don't know if I can salvage this one. I may have to remove the frets and plane the neck flat again. I don't think even the thickest strings can correct this back bow but I will likely try that first.

 

In my book, this is not high quality craftsmanship. The wood grain looks OK and the materials are average, but again, I doubt this wood was properly cured. Its most likely green with humidity levels much too high and should not have been assembled until that humidity level was low enough.

 

Experienced Manufacturers not only cure the wood to drive the humidity out, they also rehumidify it to the proper levels before assembly. I don't know what part of the process they are screwing up on. Maybe all of it. I only see the results which are blatantly obvious to me. If you think they deserve defending, then again be my guest.

 

 

Your doing it again, whats wrong with you? I never defended inferior products I actually AGREED that some factories dont bother about the quality of the wood.Read my post again!

 

I was just pointing out that the Chinese do know HOW to cure a piece of wood. But hey, dont let that get in the way of your prejudiced ideas.

[WRGKMC]

 

Your doing it again, whats wrong with you? I never defended inferior products I actually AGREED that some factories don't bother about the quality of the wood. Read my post again! I was just pointing out that the Chinese do know HOW to cure a piece of wood. But hey, dont let that get in the way of your prejudiced ideas. .

 

 

No sir you're the one doing it again. You chimed in on this thread saying. "Sorry but I think the Chinese have been making wooden instruments MUCH longer than Gibson or Fender". If that's not a defense of their skill then what it? They surely haven't been making "guitars" as long as Gibson or Fender.

 

"I think they know how to cure wood. Whether the cheaper factories bother is a different issue". I already stated that as the basis for my criticism of the budget necks I've purchased.

 

Now you're stating "But hey, don't let that get in the way of your prejudiced ideas". Now you're suggesting I'm prejudiced?

I was quite clear when I talked about the products I purchased and the reasons why "I" thought they were defective. I don't see race having anything to do with it as your obviously do.

 

Prejudice is a word which suggests hate towards a race of people. I highly recommend you refrain from characterizing others like that. I know its a typical method of winning an argument. Just call anyone you disagree with a Bigot. Sorry sir, but that's not going to work here.

 

I suggest you just stick to the topic which is about a tuner and how well it works on even inferior instruments.

 

[knotty]

Oh dear

 

 

No sir you're the one doing it again. You chimed in on this thread saying. "Sorry but I think the Chinese have been making wooden instruments MUCH longer than Gibson or Fender". If that's not a defense of their skill then what it? They surely haven't been making "guitars" as long as Gibson or Fender.

 

"I think they know how to cure wood. Whether the cheaper factories bother is a different issue". I already stated that as the basis for my criticism of the budget necks I've purchased.

 

Now you're stating "But hey, don't let that get in the way of your prejudiced ideas". Now you're suggesting I'm prejudiced?

I was quite clear when I talked about the products I purchased and the reasons why "I" thought they were defective. I don't see race having anything to do with it as your obviously do.

 

Prejudice is a word which suggests hate towards a race of people. I highly recommend you refrain from characterizing others like that. I know its a typical method of winning an argument. Just call anyone you disagree with a Bigot. Sorry sir, but that's not going to work here.

 

I suggest you just stick to the topic which is about a tuner and how well it works on even inferior instruments.

Oh dear Your determined to escalate an innocent statement arent you?

 

My only observation was that the Chinese DO know the "secrets" of curing wood. I even agreed that cheaper factories dont always do it.

I think, from your posts, your veiws are prejudiced, I never mentioned race, or politics for that matter, that was you.

As a point of fact the Chinese have been making plucked, guitar like instruments for much longer than ANY American manufacturer.

I know your ego wants to embelish this into another row so you can report me as a bully or stalker. Well I am not playing because you are not up to a robust discussion without crying wolf.

[Craig Vecchione]

knotty and WRGKMC,

 

I'm pretty certain you both were requested to:

 

1. find a way to get along

 

-OR-

 

2. if you can't get along, then use the forum "ignore" feature so you don't see each other's posts

 

If you failed at this, you were both warned that bannings would be the next step.

 

So....

 

Not another word, not another sound, not another peep. We don't want to see your posts reported again. We don't want PM's from either of you arguing how you're being stalked, or how the other is lacking in some way. We especially don't want to see anything more here, or in any other thread, about this argument. It's done, or you're both done for a much longer time than you might feel is warranted. I don't appreciate making a polite request only to see it completely ignored a few weeks later.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Well I got it last night. It was smaller then I expected, about the size of a very large tie clip. Installed the battery and it powered up without any issues.

 

Get this, in the box was a Free promotional code for a copy of the Polytune DAW plugin. Its normally on sale for $39 right now and its a free download with the code you get with the purchase of the clip on. I just downloaded it and will be trying it out on my DAW today. http://www.tcelectronic.com/polytune-plug-in/ Looks like it works like the hardware version. I'll have to review that later too.

 

 

I'd love to read it... maybe you can post that over on the Studio Trenches forum... I'm sure others who are into recording would be interested in reading about it too.

 

Very nice job on the review - thanks for posting it!

[WRGKMC]

"Well I am not playing because you are not up to a robust discussion without crying wolf".

 

I have no problem with a robust discussion. I actually enjoy them when the person whose posting is on topic and has something worthwhile to add.

 

Given our past disagreements, "you know" I don't want to have "any" conversations with you of any kind.

 

The fact is I didn't invite you into this conversation and I didn't post the words. If you don't want your words to be misinterpreted I suggest you choose them more wisely in the future and stick to the topic.

 

This thread was about how well a tuner works, not whether a country can or cannot make better instrument.

 

Who cares if China does or doesn't knows how to cure wood. What good is knowledge if it isn't being used?

 

My beef is limited to the products I do buy. If the seller, wants to develop a good reputation in the industry and have steady customers, they need to hear both the good and the bad criticism from their customers.

 

Forums like this do get the word out, and if their businesses suffer because they fail to take corrective action and fix their product flaws, then so be it. They deserve what they get for selling people unusable junk.

 

Those who do listen and take corrective action will be rewarded with have happy customers willing to buy their product, again, even at a higher cost. Those who don't, deserve the negative criticism and should be driven out of the business.

 

If my views are Prejudiced because I believe companies succeed or fail based on the quality of their product, then so be it. I call it common business sense myself

[knotty]

knotty and WRGKMC,

 

I'm pretty certain you both were requested to:

 

1. find a way to get along

 

-OR-

 

2. if you can't get along, then use the forum "ignore" feature so you don't see each other's posts

 

If you failed at this, you were both warned that bannings would be the next step.

 

So....

 

Not another word, not another sound, not another peep. We don't want to see your posts reported again. We don't want PM's from either of you arguing how you're being stalked, or how the other is lacking in some way. We especially don't want to see anything more here, or in any other thread, about this argument. It's done, or you're both done for a much longer time than you might feel is warranted. I don't appreciate making a polite request only to see it completely ignored a few weeks later.

 

Sorry Craig but I am a bit staggered by this.

 

If you and the management of this forum are happy with the insinuation that " if its made in China by Chinese, its junk", rather than "if its made on the cheap its junk" then feel free, ban me far as long as you want. Because thats not really a community I want to be part of.

The only thing I ask is that you leave this post up so the forums position is clear. (You wont of course)

 

[WRGKMC]

 

I'd love to read it... maybe you can post that over on the Studio Trenches forum... I'm sure others who are into recording would be interested in reading about it too.

 

Very nice job on the review - thanks for posting it!

 

No problem.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Sorry Craig but I am a bit staggered by this.

 

If you and the management of this forum are happy with the insinuation that " if its made in China by Chinese, its junk", rather than "if its made on the cheap its junk" then feel free, ban me far as long as you want. Because thats not really a community I want to be part of.

The only thing I ask is that you leave this post up so the forums position is clear. (You wont of course)

 

You're staggered that you were warned to ignore WRGKMC do to previous flamewars, that you instead ignored the warning, and that you're being told AGAIN, to cut it out?

 

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the content of your argument with WRGKMC. It's his opinion and he's free to express it. You're also free to disagree, and to discuss it maturely. But you two have a history of getting personal with your disagreements. So it's not about your point of contention. It's about being given a direct warning by moderators and admin, and ignoring it. You seem to want the time off, so you've got it.

[Craig Vecchione]

The forum's position is that when we tell a member not to engage another member with whom they can't get along, we mean it.

 

It has nothing to do with your or WRGKMC's position on Chinese manufacturing.

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

Sorry Craig but I am a bit staggered by this.

 

If you and the management of this forum are happy with the insinuation that " if its made in China by Chinese, its junk", rather than "if its made on the cheap its junk" then feel free, ban me far as long as you want. Because thats not really a community I want to be part of.

The only thing I ask is that you leave this post up so the forums position is clear. (You wont of course)

 

You seem to be trying to make an insinuation that because the comment was made by a forum member that the overall quality of guitars coming from China is perceived by some as not being as high as the quality of the instruments coming from other countries, Harmony Central is somehow racist or bigoted. First of all, I find that insinuation very offensive. Secondly, it was the opinion of the forum member who stated it, and not the official POV of HC. Finally, even he alluded to how, as the level of experience with the manufacture of western instruments increased, so did the quality of the instruments produced by other non-western nations, such as Japan. In the 60s, the quality level of guitars made in Japan was considered to be pretty bad by most guitarists, but by the 1980s, many players considered MIJ guitars - at any given price point - to be some of the best built in the world. Many people feel Korean-built guitars went through a similar progression.

 

As I read his post, the impression I got was that he felt it was a matter of experience and budgetary concerns, not due to some intrinsic inferiority on the part of the Chinese, as you seem to be suggesting he was implying. Many people think that, even today, some of the best classical guitars are made in Spain, and some of the best banjos are made in America, yet I don't see people accusing them of racism. While it is true that China has a much longer history of civilization than the west, and a long and rich musical history to go along with that, experience making traditional Chinese instruments - even when done by highly expert craftspeople - does not instantly convey expertise in the manufacture of western instruments, any more than experience with making Spanish guitars and American banjos makes one an expert in the building of Chinese guzhengs, pipas or qinqins.

 

Finally, as Craig said, the main issue here is that both of you were instructed - on more than one occasion - to put an end to your ongoing war of words; either through finding a way to get along enough to at least keep the discussions civil, or failing that, by ignoring each other.

 

WRGKMC, it's no longer a request. Please add knotty to your ignore list. If you need assistance with instructions on how to do so, please PM either me or Craig. Do not comment about his posts, or mention or respond to him in any way. Please stay out of threads he starts, and do not contact or mention him in any way on HC from this point forward. If you see him talking about you, or posting in a thread you started, or responding to your posts, DO NOT RESPOND - instead, send a PM to one of the moderators.

 

The same applies to you upon your return knotty.

 

As of right now, neither of you exist in any way, shape or form insofar as the other is concerned, and you are both expected to act accordingly. If we see either one of you do otherwise, as Craig said, the ban will not be a short one.