Members Made Posted July 21, 2015 Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 i'm looking for some good advice on what to do here. I just bought this old Tokai, and it's covered in some weird red paint. Seller said it was latex paint, and that the original under it, is nitrocellulouse. I've tried the following with no result: Turpentine(Mineral edition, maybe it's called mineral spirit or something), rubbing alcohol, benzine, dishwashing agent, soft soap (the brown stuff). I didn't leave any of it for very long, but it didn't seem to have any effect whatsoever. My girlfriends' nail polish remover though.. It eats right through the red paint, and i'm afraid a bit more than that. looks like it takes the top coat off the original paint too. Its acetone based. I tested under the pick guard. Tell me if you need more info., I'm really hoping it can be removed without damaging the original paint too much. Sorry if i've made spelling/language-mistakes, not a native english speaker Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted July 21, 2015 Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 Do you have any lighter fluid ( naphtha ) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 If your intention is to remove the red paint and leave the original finish, you're going to have a really hard time doing so. Try doing a Google search on "latex paint removal" - the methods I'm seeing include things like rubbing alcohol, Goo Gone, Goof-Off, and latex paint strippers that will probably also strip or at least damage nitrocellulose lacquer too. Acetone (nail polish remover) will DEFINITELY remove nitrocellulose lacquer! You may have to resort to using a strong stripper and removing all the paint, then refinishing the guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 No, i don't. I Denmark we usually buy lighter fuel as a gas on a pressurized bottle. I'm not familiar with Naphtha, but do you think it'd take off the red paint and not the original? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 This is what the nail polish remover did. Almost down to the bare wood i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 It seems to be much harder than i anticipated, and i'm seriously considering stripping it down and getting it refinished. I'm not even sure the paint is actually latex, that's just what seller assumed. Might wanna look around for a guy who can make a good paint job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 What country do you live in? Is there some place locally (or a supplier in your country) who sells spray cans of nitrocellulose lacquer? There are a couple of companies here in the USA who do, but nitro can't be shipped by air, so you'd have to source it locally. Lots of people do manage to refinish their own guitars in a way they're very happy with with such products though, and you could save some money by doing it yourself. The guitar isn't a collector's item that would have its value diminished by a refinish job as far as I can tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Oops - sorry, I see you're in Denmark. Naphtha is the same thing as most lighter fluids - like the Zippo or Ronsonol fluid you'd use to refill a Zippo lighter. It's usually also available in pint / half-liter cans at your local hardware store. It usually won't damage nitrocellulose lacquer, and depending on what the red paint is, it may remove it without removing the underlying finish. It's certainly worth a try! https://www.google.com/search?q=Naph...utf-8&oe=utf-8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 Thank you for your inputs. Highly valued!! I'll try getting some lighter fluid. It's some sort of petrol isn't it? I'm pretty good with wook working and prepping for finishing, but i'd be sad to see the old tobacco burst go away. But then again, i could decide any color i want. I'll try lighter fluid, and then if that doesnt work, consider stripping it down. Wonder about ammonium though..? any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted July 21, 2015 Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 Personally, I think some elbow grease, and some steel wool. Start at 00, then go to a 0000. o lightly, and as soon as you see the original finish, use the finer 0000. After you get it to where you want, use rubbing compound to bring back the original finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 That may work, i'll try to see if i can dent it that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 22, 2015 Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 Frankly, and unfortunately, I think you are in for a complete refin - strip it to bare wood and start over. And, as you probably know, a refin is almost always a compromise - it will never be as good as the original finish. I have a 1932 Dobro that some bozo had spray painted black - the only reasonable approach was to strip to bare wood, do as good as I could on a mild sunburst and they shoot the nitro. I purposely did not try to bring it to gloss - it looks OK but its obviously not original. btw - beware of harsh chemicals and strippers. They will damage binding, decals, anything plastic, and my contaminate the wood which could compromise your refin. You have gone thru the usual series of tests - I always start with denatured alcohol - if that softens the finish it is French polish or possibly an oil based finish. Mineral spirits will sometimes soften acrylic or maybe latex paints. If lacquer thinner softens it then its lacquer (duh). If neither of those do anything it is probably a modern catalyzed finish. Naptha (lighter fluid) is usually consider a safe solvent for cleaning guitars because it doesn't (normally) soften anything. I prefer water, but will use Naptha to remove really gunky stuff. Good luck. If it were mine I would strip to bare wood with a commercial stripper (I don't like trying to sand finish off), then clean the wood with denatured alcohol. Prep and do all the usual stuff with whatever finish you are comfortable with and which will give the results you want. If you want to restore the 'burst that would mean either nitrocellulose or water born lacquer and the appropriate dyes. Post some pictures, and before I forget my manners, welcome to HCEG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 Thank you for your response Freeman Keller. It may end up with a refinish, but i started going at it with some steel wool, at it looks like it's working pretty well. I think i can control it so that i don't scrub through the original too much. I'll try, and if i mess it up massively, i'll strip it down. I'll post pictures of the progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 22, 2015 Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 When you get down to the original finish go to an auto parts store and get some Swirl Remover. Make sure its the non silicone type. I use the Maguire's which works very well. You can then use a soft cotton cloth and buff out the steel wool scratches and shine it up again. The body looks to be lacquer so you can overspray the area you went too far down to the wood with clear lacquer. Its under the pick guard so you probably don't need a perfect color match, just a coat of two for wood protection. Once you have the new lacquer over-sprayed and feathered over the old and dried for like a week, you can then smooth the two finishes with the fine steel wool and then buff it with the swirl remover. Just be sure to tape it off so you don't overspray the area outside the pick guard area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 Thanks for the hints! I'll use them depending on the result i have when the red paint is removed. i get off work in a couple of hours and will go home and start stripping... the guitar... I'll update soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 Progress pictures as promised. Steel wool. It's A LOT of very hard work, but i'm getting stubborn. My arm like an old leek now, i need a break It seems like the original paint is harder than the red stuff, so it doesn't come off too easily. So yes, i tool the elbow grease - steel wool advice. it seems to be paying off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 Oh yeah, this was around 2 hours of grinding with a little lumb of steel wool. I'm NOT looking forward to the edges btw. the paint is awfully thick there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted July 22, 2015 Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 Well, yes you make look like Quiagmire or Popeye when done, but it sure beats a complete refinish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted July 22, 2015 Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 That last pic is one strange looking guitar. Anyway, keep up the good work and keep us posted. Oh, and if it doesn't turn out perfect, keep in mind that the "reliced" look is in these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 22, 2015 Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 I do see some areas that were worn through under the red. That's probably why they painted over it. It may still look better then that red crap on there. You may want to try patching it with lacquer sticks. http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online...Stick_Kit.html They can save allot of time and do a fairly good job patching up what you got. Individual sticks - http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Finishing_Supplies/Lacquer_Sticks.htmlKit & sticks - http://www.shellac.net/burninsupplies.html If not you could just break out a sander and take it down to the wood. The question would then be what kind of body is it. A tobacco burst may be hiding the edges of a piece of plywood. If its solid wood then using a Tung oil finish is real easy to apply and get good results. Just wipe it on and wait for it to dry between coats until you get it as glossy as you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 Hey thanks for your advice. I'll probably just leave the marks as is. I don't mind it looking worn, and i'd much rather have a worn burst than an ugly red finish I think you underestimate this guitar a tad. It's '79 Tokai Te-80, these are by no means cheap guitars. One just sold at around 1500 USD, similar to this one, except no red paint and new frets. It's a one-piece , i think it's alder. I assembled it before starting to scrub off the red paint, and it plays really well and resonates like crazy. Frets are a bit low, and they're a very small profile, and the nut profile seems a bit low, giving it a bit much buzz, but that gives me a few things to improve on edit: My point is just, that i'm sure there's no plywood etc. correct me if i misunderstood what you meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 24, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2015 Alrighto! Update time. I finished the front. The nitro is very, very thin. And it looks like it's been heat damaged or chemically damaged under the red paint. This results in a few more flaws than i had expected. But frankly, i'm okay with it. When the parts are assembled, it just looks like a guitar with some long years behind it. I'm not looking forward to doing the sides, it'll be a big piece of work. The back side is already started, and i may be able to manage that without any holes in the nitro, since it doesn't seem to be previously damaged on the back. I've attached some pics, hope you like the update. I've probably been at it for around 8 hours now, so there's quite a bit to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Made Posted July 24, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2015 I could use some advice on what to do on the spots where i got through the nitro. I'm thinking about rubbing something disgustingly dirty into the wood to go with the relic'ed look. I don't really have any high hopes regarding repairing the lacquer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Lacquer is actually one of the easier finishes to repair. It's not simple, and I'm no expert on it, but since fresh lacquer will "melt into" existing lacquer, it can be repaired. In the USA, you can get clear nitrocellulose lacquer at many hardware stores - I'm not sure about its availability in Denmark. However, if you were to cover the entire guitar with coats of lacquer, you'd be in for even more hard work in terms of hand-sanding and polishing it... and it would take a really skilled expert to match the shading of the sunburst, if that's what you had in mind. In your shoes, I don't think I'd do anything to it once the red paint is off... You've sure done a lot of work - it's really coming along. Thanks for the update! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted July 24, 2015 Members Share Posted July 24, 2015 Great job Made! personally, I would leave it, and let time and your body, make it look like it was meant to be this way! Amazing how much dirt your arm has on it, when playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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