Members wankdeplank Posted July 20, 2015 Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 Now I get it when it comes to the Gibson vs Epi Les Paul comparison, or other copies for that matter. I mean there may be an exception here and there, but you're generally paying for better quality wood and possibly hardware. Whatever the case, you can hear the difference between the two variants on Youtube or at your local Guitar Center. In this case, my choice was the Gibson which I love. But when it comes to the ES-335 which is not even made of solid wood, what exactly are you paying the considerable difference for? Not sure about the Dot but in this video, the Epi 335 Pro seems to hold its' own in the sound department: [video=youtube;Q3cRHg-xH48] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted July 20, 2015 Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 Now I get it when it comes to the Gibson vs Epi Les Paul comparison' date=' or other copies for that matter. I mean there may be an exception here and there, but you're generally paying for better quality wood and possibly hardware. Whatever the case, you can hear the difference between the two variants on Youtube or at your local Guitar Center. In this case, my choice was the Gibson which I love. [b']But when it comes to the ES-335 which is not even made of solid wood,[/b] what exactly are you paying the considerable difference for? Not sure about the Dot but in this video, the Epi 335 Pro seems to hold its' own in the sound department: Not made of solid wood? you seem to think that this is a bad thing. Laminate is better suited to a 335 type guitar.It gives a more mellow sound I wonder if the lighter weight wood used in the laminate is the same for both brands? "All-maple bodies aren’t unheard of—although the weight is usually off-putting—and, on its own, a maple body produces an extremely bright, precise tone with tight lows." http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/all-about-tonewoods/14591 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stormin1155 Posted July 20, 2015 Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 It's not the wood that is $2000 superior, it's the Gibson logo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted July 20, 2015 Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 I'm not saying this is worth the entire difference, because obviously it's not.....but...... At least a part of it is for giving someone a decent job with decent working conditions. And ideally you'd be paying more for time spent per guitar on build quality. Fit and finish and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pine Apple Slim Posted July 20, 2015 Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 The Gibson has a more expensive finish. Nitro or higher end synthetic with (theoretically) more time and care taken in application. Wage rates are a factor too. Higher labor costs with (theoretically) more attention to details. I say (theoretically) because HJ is a typical capitalist who wants production and productivity above all else from the workers despite the meme of great care and attention to detail. The combination of pressure for numbers, HJs aholery and worker turnover, and the fact that anybody can have a bad day works against the attention to detail part of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted July 20, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 20, 2015 The Gibson has a more expensive finish. Nitro or higher end synthetic with (theoretically) more time and care taken in application. Wage rates are a factor too. Higher labor costs with (theoretically) more attention to details. I say (theoretically) because HJ is a typical capitalist who wants production and productivity above all else from the workers despite the meme of great care and attention to detail. The combination of pressure for numbers' date=' HJs aholery and worker turnover, and the fact that anybody can have a bad day works against the attention to detail part of the equation. [/quote'] As Slim says, you can take any hand finished product that has the best of everything lavished on it, to make it a quality made US piece of work, and subcontract it out to a cheaper labour market, skimp on some key components, and sell it considerably cheaper. I can't criticise Gibson for offering choice to those who want a Gibson like semi, LP or ditto Fender/Squier. Ya gotta cater for peoples spending power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted July 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 Not made of solid wood? you seem to think that this is a bad thing. Laminate is better suited to a 335 type guitar.It gives a more mellow sound I wonder if the lighter weight wood used in the laminate is the same for both brands? "All-maple bodies aren’t unheard of—although the weight is usually off-putting—and, on its own, a maple body produces an extremely bright, precise tone with tight lows." http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscella...onewoods/14591 No not at all, just that the sound is generated in a different manner. I should clarify this by stating that those of us in the "tonewood" camp adhere to the belief that good quality "resonant" tonewood is the major difference in the tonal characteristics between a Gibson LP and a typical Epi LP. I realize that some cling to a different supposition regarding pickup quality and perhaps hardware in which case a few mods should be able to transform the tone of the latter to the former. Based on the research of others, I'm not convinced that is the case. [video=youtube;ykYrFOKNHOA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_3886062381&feature= iv&src_vid=h_x30oqq8M4&v=ykYrFOKNHOA My point is that even without any modification the Epi 335 Pro in the video sounds almost identical to the Gibby 335 ostensibly giving more credence to the tonewood argument and begging the question, why pay more in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted July 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 I concur in this case. It is also informative to click to the youtube page for that particular video where most all of the comments seem to also agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted July 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 Thx for weighing in SC. Now the working conditions part is an entirely different can of worms, but I think you hit the nail with the fit and finish part. I seem to remember WRGKMC mentioning the conundrum of his Epi Dot top pulling up over time. I hoped to hear more of this type of experience in this thread, possibly supporting the quality of the Gibby over the Epi. In my case, I posted this after jamming last week with a fellow guitar aficionado that like myself has a large collection of guitars with a smattering of both high end and budget models, and enjoying both types. With a wall full of Rickenbachers and US and Japanese Fenders, I was a little surprised that his 335 was an Epi Dot with a bigsby installed. Not sure of the year or the Country of origin, but that baby played and sounded quite superbly. For myself, I brought my Gibson Les Paul and my MIK Carlo Robelli 335 copy as I knew from his youtube videos that he was a 335 junkie. We were both impressed with our cheapies that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted July 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 The Gibson has a more expensive finish. Nitro or higher end synthetic with (theoretically) more time and care taken in application. Wage rates are a factor too. Higher labor costs with (theoretically) more attention to details. I say (theoretically) because HJ is a typical capitalist who wants production and productivity above all else from the workers despite the meme of great care and attention to detail. The combination of pressure for numbers' date=' HJs aholery and worker turnover, and the fact that anybody can have a bad day works against the attention to detail part of the equation. [/quote'] I'm not entirely convinced that that is necessarily a good thing from a tonal perspective. Have you seen or heard of this?: [video=youtube;DiyhMn0pTT8] [video=youtube;r8OFvb9JbWE] [video=youtube;snuY3h5wyuM] In my case, I had to reinstall a covered set of Gibson (490R/498T) in my Gibson LP Deluxe LIte because the uncovered boutique set I installed exacerbated the problem rather significantly. Added with edit: This static issue is a direct result of the nitro lacquer used and can get pretty bad in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted July 20, 2015 Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 My point is that even without any modification the Epi 335 Pro in the video sound almost identical to the Gibby 335 Pro ostensibly giving more credence to the tonewood argument and begging the question, why pay more in this case. And there we have it, That big word "almost." So we end up like a dog chasing it's trying to decide how close is close enough. The biggest factor seems to be the skill of the player. If you've been playing for two or three years the difference between the two may not be apparent but to a skilled pro the difference may be huge. The amp can effect the differeces as well especially compressin and pretty much all recording is done digitally so suble nuances will be lost. So how close is close enough? It will vary for each person. I am not a pro and can be quite satisfied with a good Epiphone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted July 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 Well said Ratae. In my case, coming from a Blues fan perspective, I always envisioned myself one day adding a Gibson 335 to the stable. But since picking up what I consider to be a very good copy for a fraction of the cost, I just don't have the same jones for it anymore. Actually, I'm pretty thrilled with what I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted July 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 You seem to be suggesting that the more skilled an individual, the less he requires top-shelf guitar as his playing makes up for the difference. I'm not sure I can agree with that argument as the better I get the more discriminating I seem to get as well. When I say almost identical, I should clarify that from the video I honestly can't tell which guitar sounds better. No expert, but I have played a couple of Gibson 335s and I have yet to have that aha moment regarding the difference btn that and my MIK Carlo Robelli 335 copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted July 20, 2015 Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 I honestly thought that the Epi, sounded better. But it's all subjective, what sounds better to my ears, might sound like crap to someone else. I think there is a more distinct tonal difference between the Epi and Gibby Pauls, but in this case, VERY minor differences in tone. Why spend the $2000 more on the Gibby? Because your ego demands it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted July 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 I hear ya Penguin and obviously a personal decision. With the Les Paul comparison, I hear and feel it with the sustain and overtones which was important enough for me to invest in the Gibby. Not feeling it with the ES335 however. Probably some custom shop or vintage ES-335 that would totally blow my doors off however, even if I could never afford it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted July 20, 2015 Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 I'm saying a new player will sound bad on anything and won't know the difference . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 As Slim says, you can take any hand finished product that has the best of everything lavished on it, to make it a quality made US piece of work, and subcontract it out to a cheaper labour market, skimp on some key components, and sell it considerably cheaper. I can't criticise Gibson for offering choice to those who want a Gibson like semi, LP or ditto Fender/Squier. Ya gotta cater for peoples spending power. Well-said, and I totally agree with your points here. Beyond just the laminated body wood there are other differences - real and / or perceived - such as being US vs foreign built (and the effect that has on appreciation / future resale value), electronics, finish, the wood used for the neck and fingerboard, the quality of the hardware, inlays, etc. - and I'm glad that Gibson and Fender offer us a variety of choices at different price points. I own a '01 Epiphone Casino (MIK / Peerless)... and I love it! It's one of my favorite guitars, and I have more than a few. Like all Casinos, the body is all laminated wood. I've also reviewed the MIC Epiphone Casino Coupe, which despite some skepticism going into the review, also ended up impressing me. I've read reports that the Elitist Casinos and the Gibson ES-330's are even better, but I have not tried them personally. Outside of some of the potential differences we mentioned, I don't know how they could be significantly better than my Casino... the Casino I have is a absolutely superb instrument. Maybe the inlays could be better, and I did have to replace the three-way switch at one point because it failed, but other than minor stuff like that, it's perfect IMO. GREAT neck (and I'm super-picky about neck shapes and dimensions) and it plays and sounds fantastic. I could put different pickups into it, or replace the hardware, but I've never seen any need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted July 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 OK gotcha Gordo. Somehow I got that the youtube player made the two guitars sound similar with his skill level which is another argument I've seen a lot of - the "tone is in the fingers argument". Operating on fumes right now - sleep issue, exclupa por favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted July 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 Thx for weighing in Phil. Like you with your Casino, I feel the same way about my MIK Carlo Robelli 335 copy (2000, possibly Peerless as well I imagine). Superb IMO, particularly after changing out the neck pickup with a Seymour Duncan 59 and replacing the nut for a tusq one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted July 20, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 20, 2015 Love my Peerless Casino too, much livelier than the IBLJ, I did some work on recently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted July 20, 2015 Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 And I feel the same with my Chinese made Ibanez AS73. Some different pickups, flatwounds, and some love, and it's as good as any Gibby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 21, 2015 Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 There is a very good reason for those guitars being "plywood". You couldn't afford (or would want) a carved archtop semi- solid body. As you know, I'm currently building one and I fully understand why they are made this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted July 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 Yes coming along quite nicely I see. And when I see the work that goes into it I wonder how Epiphone can blow theirs out so cheaply. I've always admired your builds and was wondering if this one is easier or harder to build than the LP types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted July 21, 2015 Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 I've played 335 style guitars for most of my career and found the Yamaha and Ibanez models from the 80s to be among the best of the bunch. Gibson certainly does not have a monopoly on that model of guitar although they make some very good ones too. If I were looking for one today, I would just play a bunch of them and pick the one I connected with best regardless of where it came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The Gibson has a more expensive finish. Nitro or higher end synthetic with (theoretically) more time and care taken in application. Wage rates are a factor too. Higher labor costs with (theoretically) more attention to details. I say (theoretically) because HJ is a typical capitalist who wants production and productivity above all else from the workers despite the meme of great care and attention to detail. The combination of pressure for numbers' date=' HJs aholery and worker turnover, and the fact that anybody can have a bad day works against the attention to detail part of the equation. [/quote'] Having already given my thoughts about my Casino, I will add this - I also currently own a '96 MIK Epi Limited Edition Les Paul, and last year (well before Gibson purchased HC), I reviewed a Gibson Les Paul Standard and was able to extensively play and compare them side by side. Yes, there's a very large difference in price, but if you gave me the choice of owning one or the other, it wouldn't even be close - the Gibson was the far superior guitar - and I really like my Les Paul a lot. Not as much as my Casino, but it's definitely not a "bad" example of a Epi LP. The Gibby blew it out of the water in pretty much every way, save for the price tag. I lived through the bad years of Fender and Gibson - the 70s and early 80s... and today's guitars - from both companies - are generally much better instruments than either was putting out in their worst periods. It's not even close - in fact, some of today's instruments are, IMHO, every bit as good as some of the golden age stuff from the 50s and 60s - which I've also played quite a few examples of, and owned a few of myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.