Members gardo Posted May 19, 2015 Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 Mostly common sense but there's nothing common about sense either I still can't post videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 19, 2015 Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 Guys like that are the cause of half the myths that get passed around on the net.He's obviously not a tech and totally ignorant to what he's talking about. .He didn't even have one pro tube amp in the bunch. It was mostly all cheap mail order crap you bought at Sears and Montgomery ward back in the 60's Two items he mentioned are especially BS. You do nothing absolutely "Nothing" to hurt an amp by powering it up without an instrument plugged in. The plug terminates itself and switches the signal to ground when the instruments not plugged in and in fact is "safer" then having an instrument plugged in because there's no chance of hum or feedback coming from the amp when its powered up. The other is playing the guitar as the power comes up. It does nothing, to hurt the amp when it powers up. You may blow a speaker if the speaker is too low of a wattage and the power comes up the volume on max. All you have to do to avoid that is turn the volume off, then it wont matter if you're playing or not. The others, Tubes are unlikely to be damaged moving the amp with the tubes hot and are no more or less susceptible to damage hot or cold.Hot tubes take all kinds of vibrations in combos from the speakers when you're playing. Moving the amp when the tubes are hot aren't any worse then the vibrations you get playing. If anything an extreme temp change is something you'd want to avoid, like taking the amp immediately into the ice cold. This can weaken solder joints quickly with the metals expanding when hot and contracting when cold. It would be a stretch on tubes however unless you dump them in the snow. The last one about connecting digital gear to a tube amp is likely a tube snob joke. I think he meant to say solid state, but even that is stupid because that involves most pedals today. Fact is even if the gear uses digital processing like DSP the signal will be analog, not digital by the time it reaches the amp. Tube amps and preamps are used together all the time and there's no reason to limit yourself to old technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted May 19, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 Two items he mentioned are especially BS. You do nothing absolutely "Nothing" to hurt an amp by powering it up without an instrument plugged in. The plug terminates itself and switches the signal to ground when the instruments not plugged in and in fact is "safer" then having an instrument plugged in because there's no chance of hum or feedback coming from the amp when its powered up. The other is playing the guitar as the power comes up. It does nothing, to hurt the amp when it powers up. You may blow a speaker if the speaker is too low of a wattage and the power comes up the volume on max. All you have to do to avoid that is turn the volume off, then it wont matter if you're playing or not. The others, Tubes are unlikely to be damaged moving the amp with the tubes hot and are no more or less susceptible to damage hot or cold. Hot tubes take all kinds of vibrations in combos from the speakers when you're playing. Moving the amp when the tubes are hot aren't any worse then the vibrations you get playing. If anything an extreme temp change is something you'd want to avoid, like taking the amp immediately into the ice cold. This can weaken solder joints quickly with the metals expanding when hot and contracting when cold. It would be a stretch on tubes however unless you dump them in the snow. The last one about connecting digital gear to a tube amp is likely a tube snob joke. I think he meant to say solid state, but even that is stupid because that involves most pedals today. Fact is even if the gear uses digital processing like DSP the signal will be analog, not digital by the time it reaches the amp. Tube amps and preamps are used together all the time and there's no reason to limit yourself to old technology. Those first two things in particular had me wondering. I'm sure the last one is a snob joke but I somewhat feel that way too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr.Grumpy Posted May 19, 2015 Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 Mostly common sense but there's nothing common about sense either [video=youtube;fg98niimMDE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr.Grumpy Posted May 19, 2015 Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 When posting video links, always delete the letter "s" in the "https" and change it to "http".... I hope this helps. (you can quote this post to see the link) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bucksstudent Posted May 19, 2015 Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 This video has been around for a while, and I know from my own interaction with this guy that he's a complete moron. He's spreading a lot of bad information, especially concerning the digital/modeling effects part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted May 19, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 This video has been around for a while' date=' and I know from my own interaction with this guy that he's a complete moron. He's spreading a lot of bad information, especially concerning the digital/modeling effects part.[/quote'] He does seem to lay on some b-s- but some of what he says is true I completely agree with his digatal comment. I may not know all the proper terminology but I know what i hear and digital effects steal the soul away from a tube amp. But you won't notice this on a recording as they are digital as well . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 19, 2015 Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 Who wouldn't know tubes get hot? The same people who don't know coffee at McDonalds can burn you? The thing with a plug is more like a 50/50 chance of getting shocked and that's usually when you override the plugs safety feature. Back in the day before grounded plugs you had one side of the plug larger and it wasn't supposed to fit in a jack backwards. Connected properly the one side is chassis ground and if you didn't have bad house wiring, you weren't supposed to get a shock. Many of your larger amp both solid state and tube had ground reversal switches in case the plug was wired wrong. Even if the amp is vintage its best to replace the cord with a grounded one. Its not hard to do and its not going to hurt the value of the amp. He does over inflate the dangers in an amp too. I don't mind that because I wouldn't want some kid messing around in an amp and getting hurt.Bu there again, I was working on gear by the time I was able to walk. I learned respect for electricity at the age of 3 when I stuck a key in an outlet. Once the amps unplugged the power caps should drain themselves off through the power transformer. If you do get shocked, its a single zap, not a steady current like when its plugged in. I suppose if you have a weak heart or conditions are right you could get hurt but most of the time in the tight confines of an amp you would be hard pressed to get the current to flow across your chest say from one arm to the other which could stop the heart. In the cases of holding the guitar strings you can actually eliminate that possibility by installing a high value cap in series with the ground wire. This allows hum to be grounded but isolates the player from being grounded through the strings. Most shocks you get working on amps occur from one part of the hand to another part. This will make your hand numb for awhile and the jerking away is often what causes worse injuries, cuts, bumps etc. It will wake your ass up but not usually fatal as many suppose. As a tech I've likely been zapped hundreds if not thousands of times over the 50 or so years working on gear. Its something you have to respect because you are going to get zapped as a tech but worrying actually makes a zap worse. When you sweat you produce salts that conduct electricity better. Of course I'm by no means saying go ahead and mess around in there for no reason. No one should intentionally go looking for danger. Its always best to discharge caps when working on amps. They just don't compare to some really nasty stuff like TV fly back transformers that put out thousands of volts and jump through the air to get you. You get zapped by one of those I guarantee you glow in the dark for a week. Luckily most new gear has gone low voltage many of the boards run on 9~24 volts and is all DC which is allot safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted May 19, 2015 Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 Interesting points in the vid, if only we had someone who used to be a tech........... :snax:1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted May 19, 2015 Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 Who wouldn't know tubes get hot? The same people who don't know coffee at McDonalds can burn you. . . . You're showing your ignorance with that one. The infamous McDonald's coffee incident caused burns that required skin grafts. The cup had partially melted, which caused the spill. Not what most of us expect. If I spilled coffee on myself, I might expect to say "Ouch, that smarts!" or something equally profound but I wouldn't expect to need surgery. Stick to what you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bucksstudent Posted May 20, 2015 Members Share Posted May 20, 2015 You're showing your ignorance with that one. The infamous McDonald's coffee incident caused burns that required skin grafts. The cup had partially melted, which caused the spill. Not what most of us expect. If I spilled coffee on myself, I might expect to say "Ouch, that smarts!" or something equally profound but I wouldn't expect to need surgery. Stick to what you know. You make a good point, man. However, it's like fighting an uphill battle when you try to dispel bad info in almost any context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted May 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 20, 2015 Who wouldn't know tubes get hot? The same people who don't know coffee at McDonalds can burn you. The thing with a plug is more like a 50/50 chance of getting shocked and that's usually when you override the plugs safety feature. Back in the day before grounded plugs you had one side of the plug larger and it wasn't supposed to fit in a jack backwards. Connected properly the one side is chassis ground and if you didn't have bad house wiring, you weren't supposed to get a shock. Many of your larger amp both solid state and tube had ground reversal switches in case the plug was wired wrong. Even if the amp is vintage its best to replace the cord with a grounded one. Its not hard to do and its not going to hurt the value of the amp. . My '67 Ampeg had a plug that could be put in either way. I learned to keep the Ampeg logo facing up when I pluugged it in to avoid getting zapped. I did get shocked one time when I was playing the guitar and reached over to turn the light on,it was no big deal but it did get my attention.. When I had a tech go over the amp he replaced the cord with a 3 prong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t_e_l_e Posted May 20, 2015 Members Share Posted May 20, 2015 el84 tubes a very sensitive to moving, even more if they are still hot, you can move 6l6 6v6 or el34 amps as much as you want, but with el84's i'm careful now, have spent too much money on replacing faulty el84 tubes in the past Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 20, 2015 Members Share Posted May 20, 2015 It was meant to be sarcastic. The point was, you should know its hot and not be an idiot and touch something when its hot or you'll get burned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 20, 2015 Members Share Posted May 20, 2015 el84 tubes a very sensitive to moving' date=' even more if they are still hot, you can move 6l6 6v6 or el34 amps as much as you want, but with el84's i'm careful now, have spent too much money on replacing faulty el84 tubes in the past[/quote'] Like anything, the brand of tubes have different qualities and durability. If you buy bargain basement stuff you'll likely get what you pay for. I usually use a pretty good grade of tubes and have never experienced any issues with EL34's. They do run at a higher voltage and amps that use them like Marshalls are very finicky on speaker impedances. They also tend to be have biases above what the tubes were originally designed for which can cook a tube pretty quickly and reduce its lifespan. There are several different designs and variances that will work in many amps too like the 6CA7 and KT77 which may prove to be more durable. The key to a long lifespan is to buy good tubes and have them properly biased based for type of tube you buy. Unfortunately this doesn't always get you the best tones the tubes are capable of producing. The tubes in most guitar amps are pushed beyond specs to give them drive and likely decreases their lifespan at least in half. Some brands may only last a year and others may get you 4 or more. It all depends on the amp. Historically, Back in the day they had 3 main grades of tubes. Consumer, Industrial and Military. Military tubes were the most durable and had metal cans. There are hard to find these days and I'm not sure they actually sounded any better then normal tubes. They were made to be durable instead. The metal protected them from having the glass crack and hopefully shrap metal and bullet to some extent. I believe they are still used as a backup for the military in case of EMP pulses from Nukes. Tubes wont get wiped out like SS devices do. Industrial tubes were glass but had strong durable elements. You'd find numbers like 6L6 "GC" being the industrial version of a l tube used in commercial applications, mobile units, PA and instrument amps where those amps saw shock and vibrations and were moved around allot. The Consumer stuff was often put in table radio TV and Hi Fi stuff. Its not made to be moved around and though the tubes produced some good tones, could easily become microphonic or rattle. They were cheap and kept TV repair shops in business. Since allot of the tubes being made today come from 3rd world factories using 3rd world materials I wouldn't expect many of them to be as durable as others. They may have copied older designs and sound like the originals when new but since they are reissues there's no way of knowing the material quality matches the originals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I was hoping some fun, creative things would make the list... like, don't take your vintage tube amp skydiving, don't go surfing with your plugged in (500' extension cord ) vintage tube amp, don't try to plug Primacord into your vintage tube amp, etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 PS Not all MILSPEC tubes use metal cans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted May 20, 2015 Members Share Posted May 20, 2015 Then you could have picked a better example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members V Posted May 21, 2015 Members Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yeah...a lot of pseudo-info here. You definitely need speakers plugged in if you don't have the amp off or on standby, but a guitar lead? Why? Even if the jack wasn't shorting itself to ground when not in use, you still have a resistor attached between the grid and ground if you're worried about it flying around unconnected. Sure, tubes can get hot but you aren't going to get any lethal voltage unless you actually open the amp or possibly break open a tube (he makes it sound like just putting your hand on the chassis will shock you or something). The two prong plug thing is legitimate but only if your chassis is connected to the + on one amp and - on another amp (or, as usual, the chassis of something else is connected to -). He could explain why rather than just make sure you get all those evil objects away from you. Most of the time swapping similar preamp tubes isn't really a problem. It's power amp tubes that are an issue. Also not all vintage amps are worth much. Some are worth like 100 bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t_e_l_e Posted May 21, 2015 Members Share Posted May 21, 2015 Like anything, the brand of tubes have different qualities and durability. If you buy bargain basement stuff you'll likely get what you pay for. I usually use a pretty good grade of tubes and have never experienced any issues with EL34's. They do run at a higher voltage and amps that use them like Marshalls are very finicky on speaker impedances. They also tend to be have biases above what the tubes were originally designed for which can cook a tube pretty quickly and reduce its lifespan. There are several different designs and variances that will work in many amps too like the 6CA7 and KT77 which may prove to be more durable. The key to a long lifespan is to buy good tubes and have them properly biased based for type of tube you buy. Unfortunately this doesn't always get you the best tones the tubes are capable of producing. The tubes in most guitar amps are pushed beyond specs to give them drive and likely decreases their lifespan at least in half. Some brands may only last a year and others may get you 4 or more. It all depends on the amp. Historically, Back in the day they had 3 main grades of tubes. Consumer, Industrial and Military. Military tubes were the most durable and had metal cans. There are hard to find these days and I'm not sure they actually sounded any better then normal tubes. They were made to be durable instead. The metal protected them from having the glass crack and hopefully shrap metal and bullet to some extent. I believe they are still used as a backup for the military in case of EMP pulses from Nukes. Tubes wont get wiped out like SS devices do. Industrial tubes were glass but had strong durable elements. You'd find numbers like 6L6 "GC" being the industrial version of a l tube used in commercial applications, mobile units, PA and instrument amps where those amps saw shock and vibrations and were moved around allot. The Consumer stuff was often put in table radio TV and Hi Fi stuff. Its not made to be moved around and though the tubes produced some good tones, could easily become microphonic or rattle. They were cheap and kept TV repair shops in business. Since allot of the tubes being made today come from 3rd world factories using 3rd world materials I wouldn't expect many of them to be as durable as others. They may have copied older designs and sound like the originals when new but since they are reissues there's no way of knowing the material quality matches the originals. sorry but now you are posting some BS here in a tooo long post i don't will read to the end all my point was, EL 84 (eee elll eight four) tubes are very sensitive, no matter what brand or what grade they are, the ones you put in an AC30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 21, 2015 Members Share Posted May 21, 2015 Couldn't understand the broken English very well, but I think I understand why you think the tubes are fragile when its actually the amp design. AC30's are noted for having very short tube lives. The vintage amps used to continually melt down. The Repair shop I used to work in used to have dozens of them abandoned by owners because they got tired or having them repaired. Tubes in an AC30 have a very short life expectancy, often 6 months or normal use. The short life is caused by extremely hot cathode biasing. There are some tubes that can survive allot longer but you may sacrifice some tone in the process. The best tubes for them were the EI EL84's which met Vox's specs for low current draw but they are no longer in production and very hard to find now. The second best are the JJ's or the Sovetec. I think the JJ's sound better myself but the Sovetec do make some durable tubes. Quote as per The tube store "The VOX AC30 should have a health warning for tubes since I have yet to encounter a harsher environment to operate in". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t_e_l_e Posted May 21, 2015 Members Share Posted May 21, 2015 ^WRGKMC you are more the tech expert than i am, no doubt about that regarding amp design vs tube design, it depends imho on the viewpoint if the design or the tube is to blame. most el84 amps are rated for either 15W (two el84) or 30W (four el84s) and regarding the specs of the tubes they are running on the upper end of their usable power range, meaning they are running very hot, is this now a weakness in the design of the amp or how el84s most commonly used and a weakness of the tube design compared to a fender deluxe with two 6v6 which is rated for 12W, if the output transformer allows it can also easily run at 20W with no troubles, which is almost two times the power it is rated for. if you over power a normal el84 amp you will just blow the output tubes. i have two el84 amps (one 15w and one 30W), with both i had a lot of broken el84 tubes over the years. at some point i started to take more care when moving the amp (from or to a gig), let it cool down before break down after the gig, avoided knocking it to something when lugging it to and from the car etc. and since then i had no troubles anymore with my 6v6 and 6l6 amp i never had troubles when moving the amp, they seem to be built like a tank, the tubes aswell as the amp just for the record i used JJ's, current production sovteks and now i have some tube amp doctors el84 in them, regarding live expectancy i could not experience any difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 21, 2015 Members Share Posted May 21, 2015 ^WRGKMC you are more the tech expert than i am, no doubt about that regarding amp design vs tube design, it depends imho on the viewpoint if the design or the tube is to blame. most el84 amps are rated for either 15W (two el84) or 30W (four el84s) and regarding the specs of the tubes they are running on the upper end of their usable power range, meaning they are running very hot, is this now a weakness in the design of the amp or how el84s most commonly used and a weakness of the tube design compared to a fender deluxe with two 6v6 which is rated for 12W, if the output transformer allows it can also easily run at 20W with no troubles, which is almost two times the power it is rated for. if you over power a normal el84 amp you will just blow the output tubes. i have two el84 amps (one 15w and one 30W), with both i had a lot of broken el84 tubes over the years. at some point i started to take more care when moving the amp (from or to a gig), let it cool down before break down after the gig, avoided knocking it to something when lugging it to and from the car etc. and since then i had no troubles anymore with my 6v6 and 6l6 amp i never had troubles when moving the amp, they seem to be built like a tank, the tubes aswell as the amp just for the record i used JJ's, current production sovteks and now i have some tube amp doctors el84 in them, regarding live expectancy i could not experience any difference Well its a chicken or the egg thing. The tubes were designed long before the amps were. Most were used during the war for communications, radio etc. Amp builders simply used the components available for their designs, not the other way around. Not all schematics were well designed and not all components are equal. Vox amps sound great with their hot biased tubes, they're just one of the highest maintenance amps out there. At least they aren't big bottles that cost allot more. If you're finding some better lifespan babying them, I'd definitely look into some really simple and effective mods like rubber washer that float the chassis from the cab to reduce vibration, and maybe try some of those socket O rings that are supposed to absorb vibrations at the base where it plugs in. Cab vibration is the #1 tube killer next to improper speaker impedance and something as simple as some neoprene rubber washers can float that chassis very well. I used to do this mod on heads for all the big bands in the Asbury Circuit close to that shop. This worked like a champ and kept even highly microphonic tubes from self oscillating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted May 21, 2015 Members Share Posted May 21, 2015 Cab vibration is the #1 tube killer next to improper speaker impedance and something as simple as some neoprene rubber washers can float that chassis very well. I used to do this mod on heads for all the big bands in the Asbury Circuit close to that shop. This worked like a champ and kept even highly microphonic tubes from self oscillating. From post no. 2. "The others, Tubes are unlikely to be damaged moving the amp with the tubes hot and are no more or less susceptible to damage hot or cold. Hot tubes take all kinds of vibrations in combos from the speakers when you're playing. Moving the amp when the tubes are hot aren't any worse then the vibrations you get playing." Make your mind up. We should call you "flip flop" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AlamoJoe Posted May 22, 2015 Members Share Posted May 22, 2015 I was hoping some fun' date=' creative things would make the list... like, don't take your vintage tube amp skydiving, don't go surfing with your plugged in (500' extension cord ) vintage tube amp, don't try to plug Primacord into your vintage tube amp, etc. etc.[/quote'] Lol..I was thinking the same thing Phil... And NEVER,EVER, loan your vintage tube amp to your flaky buddy, your drunk Uncle, or your girlfriend..I don't care how hot she is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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