Members DeepEnd Posted December 6, 2014 Members Share Posted December 6, 2014 The other guitarist in praise band mentioned earlier today that he doesn't intend to use his 1X10 35 Watt SS Peavey Backstage Plus, which I gave him, because it's "just a practice amp" and can't get loud enough to play live in church. I'm convinced he simply doesn't know how to use the amp. My little 1X10 25 Watt SS Roland is plenty loud for a small church like ours. I'm used to thinking of a "practice amp" as something with 15 Watts at most and I know there are tube amps with 5 Watts or so and at the other end there are probably folks who "practice" with a Twin Reverb. Anyway, what's your criterion for a "practice amp"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members billybilly Posted December 6, 2014 Members Share Posted December 6, 2014 Generally, it's one you "can't" gig with but of course that depends on the size of your gig. My practice amp is a 22watt tube amp so go figure. , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jtr654 Posted December 6, 2014 Members Share Posted December 6, 2014 A amp to small to Gig with 5 watts or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phaeton Posted December 6, 2014 Members Share Posted December 6, 2014 I think of something small-watt, probably SS. These days they'll have headphone jacks and CD/Mp3 inputs and such, and might come bundled with a guitar in some sort of starter pack. One of my cheapo CL guitars came with a Frontman15 and while it's surely no boutique tweed it's more useful than I thought it would be: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Floyd Rosenbomb Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 Ss watts and tube watts are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 Ss watts and tube watts are different. No, a Watt is a Watt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sammyreynolds01 Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 No, a Watt is a Watt. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 7, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 No, a Watt is a Watt. ^ Thanks. Tube amps sometimes have more dynamic headroom, meaning they can pump out something beyond rated power in bursts even though they can't maintain it. SS amps tend to have similar steady state and dynamic power. Because of this, there's an assumption that "Solid State Watts" are lesser or smaller than "Tube Watts." This is simply false. The term "Watt" has a fixed definition. That's not what I'm talking about, although anyone who is paying attention already knows this. It's also true that a smaller amp in terms of Wattage will overdrive at a lower level, which is useful for a "practice" or studio amp. There's also the issue of how the amp is going to be used. Maybe five years ago, I heard a very good young guitarist who was playing through a small Marshall amp--very likely a "practice amp"--that was miked. But for most uses, it was still a "practice amp." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Floyd Rosenbomb Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 This Technically Knotty is right. The simple answer is that a watt is watt whatever produces it - and that a watt is a measure of power, not volume (acoustic pressure level - decibels, that is). The volume is a factor of power AND speaker efficiency (ie: how many decibels a speaker produces for one watt). As long as we're talking about pure clean tones and not pushing your amp to it's limits, a SS amp and a tube amp set up to produce the same output power (watts) AND going thru the same loudspeaker will produce the same volume (db). The a-bit-less simple answer is that a SS amp cannot produce much more power than what it's rated for - it will almost immediately hard-clip your signal - while a tube amp will smoothly go into a more gentle soft-clipping, slightly warming up and compressing your signal but with still quite a lot of "less clean" available power. Given the very dynamic nature of a guitar signal, this means that when pushed to it's nominal power, a tube amp will still have some "not quite clean but pleasantly sounding" headroom where the SS amp will hit a brick wall. If you factor in the fact that most SS guitar amps are budget practice amps with cheap cabs, cheap and inefficient speakers and more often than not very optimistic nominal power rating you understand where the myth of the "tube watts vs SS watts" comes from. EQ (from the guitar, the preamp AND the speaker) also plays a huge role when it comes to perceived loudness, specially in a mix where you have to compete with other instruments. Guitar tone is essentially about mids, mids and then mids, so if you end up with a very scooped "V shaped" EQ you'll have to compete with the bass and kick in the lows and with the cymbals in the highs, and chances are you'll need much more power to be heard. My take on this thread is ...use the gear you like. I'd rather have something other then a 10 inch speaker but surly it can do the job in your usual church setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 7, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 . . . The a-bit-less simple answer is that a SS amp cannot produce much more power than what it's rated for - it will almost immediately hard-clip your signal - while a tube amp will smoothly go into a more gentle soft-clipping' date=' slightly warming up and compressing your signal but with still quite a lot of "less clean" available power. Given the very dynamic nature of a guitar signal, this means that when pushed to it's nominal power, a tube amp will still have some "not quite clean but pleasantly sounding" headroom where the SS amp will hit a brick wall. . . .[/quote'] In other words, what I already said. . . . If you factor in the fact that most SS guitar amps are budget practice amps with cheap cabs' date=' cheap and inefficient speakers and more often than not very optimistic nominal power rating you understand where the myth of the "tube watts vs SS watts" comes from. . . .[/quote'] A long time ago, SS amps weren't much to get excited about but that was decades ago. If you had said "SS guitar amps used to be . . ." or something similar, then yes, you'd have a point, but they aren't any more. You can't judge an entire class of amps based on a few bad examples. I could easily say "Most tube amps are self destruct devices with high maintenance costs" and be correct based on very old tube amps. . . . My take on this thread is ...use the gear you like. I'd rather have something other then a 10 inch speaker but surly it can do the job in your usual church setting. In a perfect world, I'd like a bigger amp with a 12" speaker or maybe a 2X10 but sadly I don't live in a perfect world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 I guess I don't believe in the term "practice amp". I practice with my tube amps that I would record with. (and gig with if I gigged...but I don't) I suppose in some ways when I here the term "practice amp" the image I get in my head is..... a piece of sh... sounding amp that I would never buy. As for "tube watts" and "SS watts" I believe that has to do with, as floyd was kind of saying, power ratings. ie....solid state amps usually having peak power ratings to make them look "powerful" and tube amps having proper RMS ratings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 7, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 . . . As for "tube watts" and "SS watts" I believe that has to do with, as floyd was kind of saying, power ratings. ie....solid state amps usually having peak power ratings to make them look "powerful" and tube amps having proper RMS ratings. No. By law under the FTC, power ratings have to be in RMS (which specifies a range of frequencies and a maximum amount of distortion) or at least EIA (which specifies a maximum level of distortion at 1 KHz). This has been true since the 70's so pretty much any amp in use today will be rated in either RMS or EIA. There is no room for "peak" power ratings although true RMS ratings are rarer than they should be, even among tube amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HoobaStunk Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 Generally' date=' it's one you "can't" gig with but of course that depends on the size of your gig. [/quote'] This has been my definition of a "practice room amp" as well. Usually just a retired working amp that you no longer want or need to drag to gigs. But, if I were describing or specifying a new "practice amp" to someone, it would depend on the room size, if there is a real drummer involved in the practice sessions, and if you were set up in a normal stage configuration as opposed to a desktop recording configuration. One of these amps would likely be a combo amp and would range between 5 and 40 watts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 No. By law under the FTC, power ratings have to be in RMS (which specifies a range of frequencies and a maximum amount of distortion) or at least EIA (which specifies a maximum level of distortion at 1 KHz). This has been true since the 70's so pretty much any amp in use today will be rated in either RMS or EIA. There is no room for "peak" power ratings although true RMS ratings are rarer than they should be, even among tube amps. ahh...that's interesting. thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Les Paul Lover Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 I practice with either my Orange AD15 or with my Orange Rockerverb 50. They both sound better than my old "practice" amp at any volume, and so my SS combo has been sold. If I need whisper quiet volume, i just play unplugged. Can't see the point of plugging in an amp if you can hear the strumming of your guitar over it. And it makes for very good practice too - no dirt to mask your mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mbengs1 Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 i don't use a practice amp anymore. i use a real loud amp. but i just turn the volume down to bedroom levels. i remember the only amp i used for about 10 years was a fender 15watt frontman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members speakerjones Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 The Backstage was marketed as a practice amp. Hence the name. Not sure about the OP's church, but I know with most of those environments, it's all about keeping a low stage volume. So, what you can get away with there, you might not on a loud rock stage. I think a 25w SS would be no-go for what I do, whereas a 25w tube amp would be just fine. Depends on the gig and whether I was mic'ed or not. I'd rather have more power than I need, than not enough. And yes, while there are a handful of manufacturers making good sounding, giggable solid state amps, it's still largely the platform of the beginner/practice amp market. I have several amps I use for practice depending on where I am in the house, and my mood. A MicroCube, a Gibson GA5, a Fender Musicmaster Bass (12w, tube, 12" combo), or a Music Man HD130 (130w, hybrid, through a 2x12 EV cab). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sauntman Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 My first amp ever was a Peavy Backstage Plus I bought back in 1985 or 1986. That amp is plenty loud for a church setting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 My first amp ever was a Peavy Backstage Plus I bought back in 1985 or 1986. That amp is plenty loud for a church setting! Especially considering nobody is actually listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RockPianoman Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 If you get a small tube amp, you can really work it without deafening the audience or yourself and mic it into the PA....you can get tone out of a smaller amp that a larger amp would have to be too loud to get the same tone.....you want to actually have to give your amp a workout to get the best tone and if it's too loud to do that at a typical bar, get one that isn't as powerful.... Definitely get a tube amp and turn it on as soon as possible to get the tubes nice and hot for the show..... I like Fender tube amps because you can still get a great clean tone from them....any amp can sound distorted with effects or whatever but the quality of your clean tone is what separates them.....I would listen to as many as possible to see what YOUR ear likes..... If you play heavier music Marshalls are great but once again, make sure to get one with tubes....I like Fenders for clean tone more than Marshalls.....I don't want to name specific models of amps.....I think you should listen to them yourself....... I absolutely hate solid state amps for guitar......when a solid state amp distorts, it's ugly and not in a good way......tube amps interact with your playing when you are driving them correctly..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pine Apple Slim Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 I can't imagine a church setting where the Peavey wouldn't be loud enough. It's seems to me it's more likely that he can't make it work as opposed to it won't work. For example I have a Mustang 1. It works for me well in the practice room but I've never been satisfied with it in a jam or band practice. Yet the guitarist in my band also has the exact same amp and uses it all the time, even gigs, and it sounds great.(a not too loud Americana band w elec& acoustic, bass and drums). So go figure. The operator is a big component of the system. Let him play what he wants, just don't let him get stupid loud and ruin it for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 7, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 I can't imagine a church setting where the Peavey wouldn't be loud enough. It's seems to me it's more likely that he can't make it work as opposed to it won't work. . . . The operator is a big component of the system. Let him play what he wants' date=' just don't let him get stupid loud and ruin it for everybody.[/quote'] ^ This. The guy has no clue how to operate the amp. It has two volume controls with the idea that you can overdrive the preamp and get some grit. He can't seem to find a setting that doesn't produce bad, distorted sound and he's given up. My Roland has a similar dual volume setup and I have no problem with it. I think it just burns my biscuits that I gave him a decent amp I paid good money for and he's ready to dismiss it as a mere "practice amp" because he can't operate it properly. Again, my Roland has about 70% of the Wattage of the Peavey and it's plenty loud for our setting. It also cost about 2/3 of what I paid for the Peavey (although the pawn shop threw in a phase pedal and a cheap set of cables with the Peavey). He wants to save up for a modelling amp and frankly I dread what might result. He can't operate a plain vanilla amp and a modelling amp is likely only going to be harder to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Floyd Rosenbomb Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 In other words, what I already said. A long time ago, SS amps weren't much to get excited about but that was decades ago. If you had said "SS guitar amps used to be . . ." or something similar, then yes, you'd have a point, but they aren't any more. You can't judge an entire class of amps based on a few bad examples. I could easily say "Most tube amps are self destruct devices with high maintenance costs" and be correct based on very old tube amps. In a perfect world, I'd like a bigger amp with a 12" speaker or maybe a 2X10 but sadly I don't live in a perfect world. "Decades Ago" LOL you're high, or crazy, or both. If you think any -$500 (practice amps) SS amp has a better tone then a -$500 tube amp you're high or you are crazy or both. SS is better then it was, certainly, but there is not one -$500 SS amp that is anywhere near as satisfying to play as a tube amp. Your posts indicated that you play clean and only clean. If you played with overdrive or distortion then you would know better then to spout such tone blind commentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Floyd Rosenbomb Posted December 7, 2014 Members Share Posted December 7, 2014 ^ This. The guy has no clue how to operate the amp. It has two volume controls with the idea that you can overdrive the preamp and get some grit. He can't seem to find a setting that doesn't produce bad, distorted sound and he's given up. My Roland has a similar dual volume setup and I have no problem with it. I think it just burns my biscuits that I gave him a decent amp I paid good money for and he's ready to dismiss it as a mere "practice amp" because he can't operate it properly. Again, my Roland has about 70% of the Wattage of the Peavey and it's plenty loud for our setting. It also cost about 2/3 of what I paid for the Peavey (although the pawn shop threw in a phase pedal and a cheap set of cables with the Peavey). He wants to save up for a modelling amp and frankly I dread what might result. He can't operate a plain vanilla amp and a modelling amp is likely only going to be harder to use. Poor guy, he has to deal with your narrow view of what he should play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 8, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 8, 2014 You dared to disagree with my opinion as a self proclaimed expert so I'm going to lash out like a jerk, just like always. Next, I'll send you another nasty PM. SS is better then it was, certainly, but there is not one -$500 SS amp that is anywhere near as satisfying to play to me as a tube amp. Your posts indicated that you play clean and only clean. If you played what I do I might respect your opinion. ^ Fixed. Poor guy, he has to deal with your narrow view of what he should play. As opposed to me having to deal with your narrow view of what I should hear. I've heard him play and it plain sounds bad. You haven't. Not overdriven but just bad. Overdrive has its place. I do in fact use it occasionally and I recognize the difference between well-used overdrive and bad sound, just like I recognize the difference between constructive posting and whatever just came spewing out of your keyboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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