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Guitar theory, please give guidance from those who know.


Delirium trigger

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I have been playing guitar for quite a while now. Growing up, I was around a long of talented metal musicians who taught me. Much like the guys in Lamb of God, not knowing theory much, that is how we were. We can play things that look extremely complex, yet we are going by patterns, muscle memory and figuring out what sounds right.

 

I want to expand my playing. I want to learn theory. So, I forced myself to learn where all the notes on the guitar are and how to get to them quickly. I can now do that successfully.

 

But I do not know how to figure out what keys work over certain notes. For example, if a song is in the key of A, how do I figure out what all keys I can play a minor pentatonic scale in? Obviously I can play it in A. But how do I figure out what other keys will work? Sort of like, I know that you can play a G major scale over a song in the key of C if it has chords that are in the key of G.

 

I have figured out, if I go down the neck for example, I can play a backing track in the key of G minor, and go playing the scale over it from everywhere I see G on the fretboard, even when the scale is not in the key of G. And it sounds like it's in key. Although I do not know how to figure out what my options are.

 

So again, song is in the key of G. What keys can be played over it and be in key? And why? And how do I figure that out for any note, not just G.

 

The circle of fifths, I kinda understand but I don't completely understand or how to use it. Most websites, seem to be explaining it to people who must already know what's going on. Because I can't find anything that breaks it down for someone who has no idea.

 

Last question, what should be my next step? I know the major scale, I know the pentatonic scales, I know quite a lot of scales that I learned over the years that I do not know the name of. I know arpeggios. My problem is, I have to apply all these things my ear, because I do not know what all keys work over a note. If something is in the key of G, I don't want to always play from the same G position, I want to be able to play from other positions that work in it's key.

 

When I go through the chords in the key of G. Why are those chords in the key of G? If I could figure that out, I could figure out what Chords are in the Key of something else and why.

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There's lots for you to learn, but one good place to start is the following.

 

Since you seem to really like the G scale/key at the moment, write out the seven notes of the G major scale on staff paper (with the F# in the key signature at the beginning of the first bar).

 

Next, add two notes, vertically, above each note of the scale. If the scale note is on a line, add these two notes above it on lines. If the scale note is on a space, add these two notes above it on spaces.

 

When you have finished this you will have seven chords in the key of G Major.

Next name these seven chords. GMaj, Am, Bm, CMaj, DMaj, Em, F#dim.

 

Next play these chords, anywhere you can on the neck.

All of the above chords are related to GMaj.

 

When you have worked with these for a while, write out a Cmaj scale and follow the same procedure as above.

This should be an eye-opener for you in terms of theory and also give you an understanding of how chords are related to each other.

 

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I would suggest you get yourself a piano or some kind of keyboard.

 

On a piano, the key of C Major uses only the white keys. You will notice that all the notes in the A minor pentatonic scale are on the white keys as are the notes in the D minor pentatonic scale.

 

If you add the other notes of the C Major scale to the A minor pentatonic you will be playing in the A aeolian mode and if you add the other notes of the C Major scale to the D minor pentatonic scale it will be the D dorian mode.

 

If you play a chord scale in the key of C Major, all the notes of all the chords will be on the white keys. Jazzer2020 touched on this in post #4 above.

 

IMO, the piano is a great tool for learning and understanding music theory no matter what instrument you choose to play.

 

 

"My problem is, I have to apply all these things my ear, because I do not know what all keys work over a note."

 

The fact that you rely on your ear is actually a good thing and will serve you well as you learn this stuff. Once you learn a few basic things in the key of C you can transpose them to other keys with your ear telling you if you are playing them correctly. You can then associate the theory of what you are learning with the sound.

 

Theory is just a way of organizing the sounds we use for music into little bits so that we can better understand and communicate what we are hearing.

 

 

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If the shoe don't fit, ignore:

 

Course it never does. People often just want to build monuments to their own creativity. They are aware of some of the don'ts and embarrassments but mainly want to get right to it.

Metal for instance. They start with ... um, death? Hello?????

 

So anyway, immerse yourself in good music, Jazz Classical, Broadway, whatever...

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I would suggest you get yourself a piano or some kind of keyboard.

 

On a piano, the key of C Major uses only the white keys. You will notice that all the notes in the A minor pentatonic scale are on the white keys as are the notes in the D minor pentatonic scale.

 

If you add the other notes of the C Major scale to the A minor pentatonic you will be playing in the A aeolian mode and if you add the other notes of the C Major scale to the D minor pentatonic scale it will be the D dorian mode.

 

If you play a chord scale in the key of C Major, all the notes of all the chords will be on the white keys. Jazzer2020 touched on this in post #4 above.

 

IMO, the piano is a great tool for learning and understanding music theory no matter what instrument you choose to play.

 

 

"My problem is, I have to apply all these things my ear, because I do not know what all keys work over a note."

 

The fact that you rely on your ear is actually a good thing and will serve you well as you learn this stuff. Once you learn a few basic things in the key of C you can transpose them to other keys with your ear telling you if you are playing them correctly. You can then associate the theory of what you are learning with the sound.

 

Theory is just a way of organizing the sounds we use for music into little bits so that we can better understand and communicate what we are hearing.

 

Quoted for truth...

 

If you really want to understand theory you at least need to be able to visualize a piano keyboard. It will help a great deal. The piano was designed to make playing chords and scales visually simple, straight forward. At least in the Key of C anyway. The guitar being a chromatic instrument was not.

 

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There is a lot of good technical suggestion here from people who are far more knowledgeable than I. I'm far less ambitious in terms of musical theory, but did find some serious work on the CAGED method led me to make some connections in my mind that opened more-musical (and musically satisfying) directions. There is a comment I'd like to add, though, and that is that you can ingest a nearly bottomless amount of technical info, but it is how YOU process and use that information that makes all the difference. You are searching for deeper understanding, and I think that it comes only partially from study -- you need to force yourself to have different experiences to broaden things.

 

Listen to some country. Listen to afro pop. Get out of the shred / fast / volume / distortion neighborhood for a while, and breathe in other styles. By extension, you'll find different approaches to the instrument. Will this help you 'find the right notes / keys / chords?' No. But it will help, because you will hear how others found them, and that will provide context to your study that will really be enriching for you. My .02.

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I do have a piano, I also know where all the notes are on the Piano. I understand the major scale and how the key of C uses only the white keys. That is not trouble for me. My trouble is figuring out why certain things are the way they are.

 

I understand that I can look up on the internet, what is in the key of X but I'm not interested in just knowing what is in the key, I want to know why they are in that key. If I don't understand why, I won't truly get it. I'll just remember it.

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There is a lot of good technical suggestion here from people who are far more knowledgeable than I. I'm far less ambitious in terms of musical theory, but did find some serious work on the CAGED method led me to make some connections in my mind that opened more-musical (and musically satisfying) directions. There is a comment I'd like to add, though, and that is that you can ingest a nearly bottomless amount of technical info, but it is how YOU process and use that information that makes all the difference. You are searching for deeper understanding, and I think that it comes only partially from study -- you need to force yourself to have different experiences to broaden things.

 

Listen to some country. Listen to afro pop. Get out of the shred / fast / volume / distortion neighborhood for a while, and breathe in other styles. By extension, you'll find different approaches to the instrument. Will this help you 'find the right notes / keys / chords?' No. But it will help, because you will hear how others found them, and that will provide context to your study that will really be enriching for you. My .02.

 

I already do that. If you seen me play guitar, you wouldn't think I was just a metal guitarist because I have so many styles mixed in with it. I have played in a lot of bands where I've learned a lot of different things. But that still does not tell me, why it works. I am not interested in technique, as I have technique and know how to learn new technique. I'm not interested in rhythm as I have good rhythm and know how to learn new rhythm.

 

I'm interested in the question "Why" with how things are done on the guitar.

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There's lots for you to learn, but one good place to start is the following.

 

Since you seem to really like the G scale/key at the moment, write out the seven notes of the G major scale on staff paper (with the F# in the key signature at the beginning of the first bar).

 

Next, add two notes, vertically, above each note of the scale. If the scale note is on a line, add these two notes above it on lines. If the scale note is on a space, add these two notes above it on spaces.

 

When you have finished this you will have seven chords in the key of G Major.

Next name these seven chords. GMaj, Am, Bm, CMaj, DMaj, Em, F#dim.

 

Next play these chords, anywhere you can on the neck.

All of the above chords are related to GMaj.

 

When you have worked with these for a while, write out a Cmaj scale and follow the same procedure as above.

This should be an eye-opener for you in terms of theory and also give you an understanding of how chords are related to each other.

 

So I can write out any major scale this same way? Now, how did you figure out that it was F diminished? Does it have to be F diminished? Or will another F fit? I don't understand when naming them how you came to F diminished. I understand it's there, but I don't understand why or how.

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There's lots for you to learn, but one good place to start is the following.

 

Since you seem to really like the G scale/key at the moment, write out the seven notes of the G major scale on staff paper (with the F# in the key signature at the beginning of the first bar).

 

Next, add two notes, vertically, above each note of the scale. If the scale note is on a line, add these two notes above it on lines. If the scale note is on a space, add these two notes above it on spaces.

 

When you have finished this you will have seven chords in the key of G Major.

Next name these seven chords. GMaj, Am, Bm, CMaj, DMaj, Em, F#dim.

 

Next play these chords, anywhere you can on the neck.

All of the above chords are related to GMaj.

 

When you have worked with these for a while, write out a Cmaj scale and follow the same procedure as above.

This should be an eye-opener for you in terms of theory and also give you an understanding of how chords are related to each other.

 

Jazzer I sent you a personal message.

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I do have a piano, I also know where all the notes are on the Piano. I understand the major scale and how the key of C uses only the white keys. That is not trouble for me. My trouble is figuring out why certain things are the way they are.

 

I understand that I can look up on the internet, what is in the key of X but I'm not interested in just knowing what is in the key, I want to know why they are in that key. If I don't understand why, I won't truly get it. I'll just remember it.

So it sounds like you're trying to understand why certain scales go with certain chord progressions.

 

Besides seeing it on a keyboard, another easy way to see all that is to learn a lot of songs. When you have to learn a song from ear you quickly pick up how chord progressions work as the same ones are often used for many songs. You can often anticipate a progression and when you've seen enough of them and their variants you'll have a pretty good idea of what scales work well with them.

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But I do not know how to figure out what keys work over certain notes. For example' date=' if a song is in the key of A, how do I figure out what all keys I can play a minor pentatonic scale in? Obviously I can play it in A. But how do I figure out what other keys will work? Sort of like, I know that you can play a G major scale over a song in the key of C if it has chords that are in the key of G.[/quote']

 

Once again using the key of C as an example, you will notice that the D minor, E minor and A minor pentatonic scales contain only natural notes (no sharps or flats). You could use all three of these scales to improvise over a piece on music in the key of C Major.

 

In the key of C, D is the second degree of the Major scale , E is the third and A is the sixth. Using the same idea for the key of G, A = 2nd, B=3rd and E=6th. You can use the minor pentatonic scales for A, B and E to improvise over the key of G Major.

 

In the key of A minor, D is the "four" chord (built on the fourth degree of the A scale). Depending on weather the D is minor or Major, you have several options on which pentatonic scales you can use. If the D is minor then you can use all natural notes as you would for C Major - the D minor, E minor and A minor pentatonics. If the D is Major then the F will be sharp as in the key of G Major so the A minor, B minor and E minor pentatonics can be used.

 

 

 

 

 

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it sounds like he doesn't even know how chords are made much less how to harmonize a scale. If you don't know how chords are made' date=' then you're not going to understand harmony.[/quote']

This is why a piano is valuable. You can see the triads on a keyboard. From there it's fairly easy to see how they match up on a musical staff. And from there you can easily see why some scales sound good with some chords and not so good with others.

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You are indeed looking for hardcore theory about scales (from which key and 'standard' chord progressions emanate). And to be blunt, you should be able to find a LOT of info on that (online and otherwise).

 

We are, as a group, urging you to train your ear along with your book-study. Because it helps.

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I have been playing guitar for quite a while now. Growing up, I was around a long of talented metal musicians who taught me. Much like the guys in Lamb of God, not knowing theory much, that is how we were. We can play things that look extremely complex, yet we are going by patterns, muscle memory and figuring out what sounds right.

 

I want to expand my playing. I want to learn theory. So, I forced myself to learn where all the notes on the guitar are and how to get to them quickly. I can now do that successfully.

 

But I do not know how to figure out what keys work over certain notes. For example, if a song is in the key of A, how do I figure out what all keys I can play a minor pentatonic scale in? Obviously I can play it in A. But how do I figure out what other keys will work? Sort of like, I know that you can play a G major scale over a song in the key of C if it has chords that are in the key of G.

 

I have figured out, if I go down the neck for example, I can play a backing track in the key of G minor, and go playing the scale over it from everywhere I see G on the fretboard, even when the scale is not in the key of G. And it sounds like it's in key. Although I do not know how to figure out what my options are.

 

So again, song is in the key of G. What keys can be played over it and be in key? And why? And how do I figure that out for any note, not just G.

 

The circle of fifths, I kinda understand but I don't completely understand or how to use it. Most websites, seem to be explaining it to people who must already know what's going on. Because I can't find anything that breaks it down for someone who has no idea.

 

Last question, what should be my next step? I know the major scale, I know the pentatonic scales, I know quite a lot of scales that I learned over the years that I do not know the name of. I know arpeggios. My problem is, I have to apply all these things my ear, because I do not know what all keys work over a note. If something is in the key of G, I don't want to always play from the same G position, I want to be able to play from other positions that work in it's key.

 

When I go through the chords in the key of G. Why are those chords in the key of G? If I could figure that out, I could figure out what Chords are in the Key of something else and why.

 

It's good you have the major and pentatonic scales under your fingers.

 

Now you just need to understand how the scales relate to the chords in the various keys.

 

Take a look at the attached major key table. It shows you the chords in each key and the scales that fit those chord combinations.

 

Note that chords often appear in different keys but not all the chords in a certain key are in another key.

 

Note that the minor keys listed are simply the major scale starting on the 6th of the corresponding major scale (ex. Am in key of C, Em in key of G)

 

The pentatonic scales are just the the major scale minus two notes.

 

You should learn what chords are in each key. This formula for the major scale will help you figure it out:

 

Major-minor-minor-Major-Major-minor-Diminished

 

Thus Key of G...

 

G-Am-Bm-C-D-Em-F#dim

 

Key of C...

 

C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-Bdim

 

Why does a particular scale "work" over certain chords? Because the notes of those particular chords are in that scale!

 

Say I have a chord progression like C-F-G-C

 

Looking at the chart I see those chords are all in the key of C. (They are NOT all in the key of G) So I could play the C major scale over that progression. I could also play C major pentatonic over it.

 

How about a progression like G-Am-C-D?

 

The chart says all those chords are in the key of G so...play G major scale or G major pentatonic.

 

How about Bm-G-A?

 

Those chords are all in the key of D aren't they but we call it the key of Bm (or B natural minor). The natural minor scale starts on the 6th note of the major scale.

 

As you can see all the chords in the key of Bm are also in the key of D. You could play the scale of Bm over it or Bm pentatonic too. It's all the key of D.

 

When you play by ear you accent the notes of the chords by habit.

 

The scale of Bm is these notes: B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A.

The scale of the key of D is these notes: D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#

 

They are the same!

 

You can look up how to build chords on the web. It's good to know.

 

3-key-chord-chart.jpg

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What? Did I kill this thread?

 

anyone.gif

 

Yes you failed to provide the Rosetta to stardom.

 

People often just want to build monuments to their own creativity. They are aware of some of the don'ts and embarrassments but mainly want to get right to it.

Metal for instance. They start with ... um, death? Hello?????

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Here's the thing...

 

None of this stuff will just come to you like light will turning on. You have to go get it. You want to know theory? You have to study it. It's really not that difficult but you won't get it just by being around people that know it

 

Honestly, one semester at your local community college of Music Theory 101 and you'll have more than enough to have answered all of your question here.

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