Help with weird D string rattle, Gibson EXP

[Exacto]

Hello everyone! First of all I would like to say that I'm not a complete noob when it comes to guitar setup as I do that with all my guitars regularly. However I'm having issues with this Gibson Explorer. The D string has a weird rattle to it, I'm 99% sure it's rattling over the frets, but it shouldn't. I've purchased the guitar used and the frets had some wear on them so I had them levelled by my tech. He's not a master by any means but he does (in my opinion) a very good job on the fretwork. He did a few guitars for me and I had no complaints. This is also the 2nd guitar that I insalled the Earvana nut on (I like them), first one was a LP Studio. I've also replaced the saddles to GraphTech, but this was happening on the steel ones too (I suspected the D saddle to be cut to low compared to others). I've tried almost everything right now, I suspected the nut mainly, but the slot seems to be cut correct, not to deep (same depth as on my LP), still a lot of room between 1st fret and string after pressing on 3rd fret. String is not loose in the slot... I tried:

 

- shimming the nut, also putting paper in the slot under the string

- replacing the nut to the higher one from my Les Paul (You can replace the top part from the Earvana nut)

- raising the action (it kinda stops but at an unplayable string height, I set up my guitars at 1.6mm on low and 1.1mm on high E)

- adjusting the trussrod to stupid big relief (like 1.5mm or so, it's back to a slight relief in the video)

- replacing the string for a new one

 

Still getting this buzz... Problem is I don't know when it started because it had a DIFFERENT rattle issue of the low E string (kinda similiar), after checking EVERYTHING and setting is up exactly the same as my LP it turned out that was caused by the neck pickup being to close to the string... That must've caused some additional pull and the string vibrated in a weird way. After lowering the pickup the rattling E stopped. However this does not happen on my LP, even if I put the neck pickup really high, maybe because it has the regular EMGs (that have very weak magnets) and this Explorer has the EMG X with stronger magnets, closer to passive pickup magnets. Anyway, I probably wouldn't notice that something is off if I didn't play a tapping part (it's in the video) from my song on this Explorer. That's where it shows off the most. I can play that part on 2 other guitars set up in exactly the same way and I get no rattle from the D string. I know this is a long post but I wan't to explain the problem because it's driving me nuts. I deal with string buzz all the time because I'm a hard picker and play mostly on higher gain, but this actually comes through on the amp and it's not a regular buzz by no means. You can hear it killing the vibrations after a milisecond.

 

The only other thing I can think of is maybe someone messed up the fret radius a bit making the frets higher in the middle, and my guy just levelled them not fixing the radius problem. However shimming the nut and adjusting the action should compensate for that but it simply doesn't. Like I mentioned it kinda stops but on a really unplayable string height setup.

 

If anyone has any more suggestions PLEASE let me know, thank You !

 

Here is the video to show the problem (I'm also trying to show that the guitar is set up correctly with no fret buzz anywhere):

[DeepEnd]

I'm at work so I can't watch your vid . That said, I'd have a setup done, including pickup height. Also, after I replaced the tuners on my bass I had a rattle from the E string. Turned out the new tuners were made for a thicker headstock and the washer was rattling. A bit of work with a file and the problem went away. You may possibly have something similar. I'll be sure to watch your vid but it will be some hours.

[knotty]

Check the intonation. Somebody will be along in a moment with a diagram of how.

Cures everything.

[MorganB]

That is disturbing, sounds like a high fret catching the wound string.

[Grant Harding]

Wow - given what you've tried I'm at a bit of a loss. I had something similar on my SG2000, but it turned out I had forgotten to tighten down one of the bridge saddles. Took the allen key to it and presto.

 

Does it buzz when you play the same D note on the 5th string?

[Exacto]

This is bizzare... first of all thank You for the responses. The intonation is of course set. Now get this - I was checking the tuners and while touching the headstock I noticed... As soon as You grab the very tip of the headstock with 2 fingers the buzzing stops. I can pluck all I want - no buzz. All I'm doing it keeping the tip of the headstock between my fingers, no bending of the neck or anything. I've never ever experienced anything like this... Now I'm scared it might be some strange resoncance problem that can't be dealt with :[ Any thoughts ?

[DeepEnd]

Okaaay. Grip the tip of the headstock gently with two fingers and the problem goes away. Wow. I'm thinking tuner bushing, loose truss rod, loose truss rod cover. Or, in my case, loose nut holding the pick, LOL. When you grip the headstock, it damps a vibration of some kind. I figure the thing that's vibrating is probably at that end of the neck but in or related to the neck. Truthfully, I'm baffled and still haven't listened to the vid but it doesn't seem likely to be string or fret related.

[Exacto]

Yup, I excluded the stings and frets at this point aswell. My guess it's either a tuner (not the D one as I took that one apart and reasembled it very tightly, might have to do that to all of them) or something with the nut. Could this be caused by the nut not contacting the bottom of the nut slot completely ? Thus causing some sort of weird vibrations transfer ? I doubt it's the truss rod as that's pretty tight turning.

[DeepEnd]

. . . Could this be caused by the nut not contacting the bottom of the nut slot completely ? Thus causing some sort of weird vibrations transfer ? . . .

I wouldn't think so because string tension is holding it in place. Then again, I'm about ready to believe poltergeists at this point. If you still have the old nut, swap it back. Maybe check the D string for a bad place in the winding? It could also be a dietary deficiency: Drink some more beer and you won't notice the problem any more. Seriously, your tuner idea is as good as anything. Frankly, I'm pretty desperate. Keep us posted.

[DeepEnd]

Okay, I'm at home and I watched your vid. To me, it just sounds like bad fret buzz. Normally I'd say check for a high fret or a poorly cut nut slot but you've pretty much eliminated the nut and anyway that wouldn't account for the business of gripping the headstock. For now, I'm going to say that's a red herring and suggest you check for a high fret. Take a credit card and put the edge on top of each fret in turn, then try to rock it. If the card rocks, you have a high fret. Here's more stuff you can try: http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/acoustic-guitar/buzzing.php. Again, keep us posted.

[DeepEnd]

Okay, I'm at home and I watched your vid. To me, it just sounds like bad fret buzz. Normally I'd say check for a high fret or a poorly cut nut slot but you've pretty much eliminated the nut and anyway that wouldn't account for the business of gripping the headstock. For now, I'm going to say that's a red herring and suggest you check for a high fret. Take a credit card and put the edge on top of each fret in turn, just even with the D string, then try to rock it. If the card rocks, you have a high fret. Here's more stuff you can try: http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/acoustic-guitar/buzzing.php. Again, keep us posted.

[Exacto]

Well now I think I've tried everything, I've replaced the nut with the original one - same thing (and the action on the old nut was way higher because it wasn't cut for the 10-52 set I'm using now) then I unscrewed the trussrod nut completely (with strings loose of course) and looked for any movement - there is none, the rod seems to sit tight in there even without the nut on it. I tightened all the tuners, even swapped the D tuner for another one that has no buzz - still the same. Only thing that stops the buzz is holding the headstock tip. I'm pretty sure there is no high frets as they were levelled and crowned a week ago, the only thing I'm suspecting right now is the screwed up radius (still haven't checked that as I don't have a radius gauge), the only reason I'm saying this is because with the new saddles in the TOM bridge (perfectly cut by GraphTech) and a proper action on the nut the D string was closer to the 12th fret than the G and A, I had to swap the saddles (G for D) to bring the D higher on the tighter slot for the G string (G remained the same height just sits in a wider slot). So my thinking is the frets might be highest in the middle of the fretboard and combined with the sideways push of the string while tapping the string hits the peak of the "radius"... And holding the headstock dampens the vibrations just enough to stop it from hitting. Does this seem possible ?

[WRGKMC]

Question. Did he crown the frets or leave them flat?

 

I'd rocker the frets with strings on first and see if there's a high one.

Relief might be the second item. I'd use a notched straight edge , measure the relief and then use a normal straight edge and compare it to the fretboard. When you level frets its easy to have a slight curvature to the neck leveling and when the strings are put on, the string tension puts relief in the wrong area causing a hump on several frets. This is one reason why they make this jig. http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Fretting/Jigs_and_fixtures/Erlewine_Neck_Jig_Workstation.html#details

 

Of course most of us don't do fretwork for a living and cant justify a $500 jig but most can afford a $11 neck brace which will prevent neck flex when leveling. Its not a cure all for getting fret levels right but it helps. http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Fretting/Jigs_and_fixtures/Neck_Support_Caul.html

 

Be sure to try a different brand of strings too. Make sure the strings aren't twisted and lay flat. Some brands just have crappy cores and if the string has a twist they may tend to vibrate up and down slapping the frets more instead of vibrating elliptically across the fretboard clearing them.

[Exacto]

Of course he crowned the frets, I've checked and they seem perfectly level with the strings off and neck straight HOWEVER, I don't have the tool to check the fretboard straightness so I only rely on the frets themselves. I've never had problems with his work that's why I'm baffled and it would be strange if he did something wrong. Then again he mostly worked on my newer guitars that were not touched by other luthiers (factory levelling on all). I've always used Elixir 10-52 as I can't deal with any other strings (they are basically black after I put them on - corrosive sweat). Only Elixirs work for me and always worked a charm. I tried putting a different thickness (the A string in the D space) and it kinda stops but it also happens only after a few miliseconds later (like at a peak of vibration, obviously the string was tuned lower so that might be why). I'm going to bring it to him today again as I'm out of ideas at this point, maybe he'll check it out. I will of course get back to You guys if I hear anything, but please feel free to post any more ideas in the meantime.

[sammyreynolds01]

The only thing I can think of is a high fret.

[Exacto]

That's what I was thinking but wouldn't that also cause significant buzz somewhere on a fretted note ?

[WRGKMC]

Try this. Be sure the strings are new and slightly broken in and stretched. Never trust old strings especially the wrapped ones which can be worn on the bottom of the string.

 

Hold each string down at the last, pluck the string around the 5th fret and make sure the strings clear all frets in between.

 

Then try the same thing with the 1st and last frets held down. Use a capo if needed. You should have enough relief where all strings clear all frets. If you have some clearing and some not, its likely the reason you get string buzz. The High strings usually have less clearance then the low strings too. They have more tension and pull on the low side of the neck so depending on how thick the neck is you may have different relief on both sides.

 

Relief is not normally set dead flat. .009 around the 5~9th frets is a bare minimum. Bad things happen when its dead flat or back bowed. Unless you have higher then normal action and light touch, a dead flat neck can have all kinds of string buzz.

 

Nut height should also be high enough so the strings clear on both sides of a fretted note. For example, if you hold the 5th fret down, or any fret for that matter and pick the string between the nut and fretted note the string should clear all frets between the nut and fret when plucked lightly. A little fret slap when picking hard is normal and the high strings should be closer.

 

If you have the strings laying on the frets or several frets, there's only one of two possibilities. The frets weren't leveled properly or you don't have enough relief. It may not have even been the leveling. It may have been the crowning process. Its real easy to remove too much from a fret putting a crown back on them after leveling.

 

This is why its good to rocker the frets with the instrument strung up afterwards. Any high spot should be marked with a magic marker then you go back and either crown those a little more to lower them or use something like a soap stone to level just those few till they are flattened.

 

 

You can usually start at the first fret with the D string you're having a problem with and work up one fret at a time picking the string. When you get to the fret that's causing the problem, the buzzing stops. There may be more then one so you have to work them through one at a time. Make sure you're in an upright sitting position too. Sitting back in a chair adds weight to the neck and it can flatten the neck even more.

 

This process can take some time. I usually have to go back 2 or three times after fretting or leveling to get all the flaws worked out. By the time I've gone through a set or two of strings Its usually as good as I can get it.

 

If you find the nut is too low by the tests above, you can use some Crazy glue to build that one groove up a little. I usually sand a little of the nut material off the top to mix with the glue and it can make for a long lasting fix. A quick check is to hold down the third fret and all strings should clear the first fret.

[Exacto]

Thanks! If You read my 1st post I'm saying that I already did check the action on the nut, still alot of room when fretted on the 3rd fret, plus I swapped the nut for a much higher one with the same result... I also bumped the action on the bridge to unreasonable height and the relief is set just as my other instruments, even slightly more. I will however check the frets with the method You provided, there might be something to it but it's very strange as the instrument seems to be playing perfect on every position except open.

[WRGKMC]

Thanks! If You read my 1st post I'm saying that I already did check the action on the nut' date=' still alot of room when fretted on the 3rd fret, plus I swapped the nut for a much higher one with the same result... I also bumped the action on the bridge to unreasonable height and the relief is set just as my other instruments, even slightly more. I will however check the frets with the method You provided, there might be something to it but it's very strange as the instrument seems to be playing perfect on every position except open. [/quote']

 

Cool. Don't let it beat you. There's "Always" a reason for these kinds of issues. They just may not be something that's easily found or expected.

[Exacto]

Thanks guys. Before actually getting it back to the guy I did a final test by removing all other tuners and strings, both of the pickups and adjusting the guitar for that one string. Of course, it's still happening... The thing is after putting new strings on my LP I noticed this buzz can be also achieved by the same tapping motion around 12th fret, only You have to do it harder than on the Explorer. I would appreciate if You guys checked Your guitars by the exact same tap of the string, maybe I'm over analysing this. My Ibanez definately does not have this but that fretboard radius is super flat and nut is also higher (floyd rose). Let me know if You can cause this on Your instrument.

[wankdeplank]

I've never encountered anything remotely like that myself. Only thing that comes to mind for me is the magnetic pull of those EMGs. Best wishes on reaching a speedy resolution.

[WRGKMC]

I've never encountered anything remotely like that myself. Only thing that comes to mind for me is the magnetic pull of those EMGs. Best wishes on reaching a speedy resolution.

 

EMG's have a very low magnetic pull so I doubt that would be a factor. All I can think of is trying different strings. He may have gotten a bad batch and its got flakey D strings. I bought some fender bullets a month ago just to see if they fixed their issues. I totally wasted my money. The A string was so flat I had to adjust the saddle all the way towards the nut and it was still a 1/4 step flat on the meter. The dam core wire is too thin. It must be a fatter D string with a thinner core stuck in the pack as an A string.

 

I suggest he try some Boomers. Thay have stiff D strings. If hs still has the issue he must have a high fret some place.

[DeepEnd]

. . . after putting new strings on my LP I noticed this buzz can be also achieved by the same tapping motion around 12th fret' date=' only You have to do it harder than on the Explorer. I would appreciate if You guys checked Your guitars by the exact same tap of the string, . . . Let me know if You can cause this on Your instrument.[/quote']

FWIW, I tried it with my Strat and couldn't duplicate what you're experiencing. Sorry.

[Danhedonia]

I don't much about the mechanics of your guitar, but after quickly scanning this thread, I'd say that you have a loose, hidden item somewhere that vibrates sympathetically with notes fretted on your D string. You're probably frustrated because you observe that the D string is what causes the rattle, but cannot find something immediately connected to the D string.

 

Well, that leaves things like truss rods, pickup connectors, etc -- anything that could be loose somewhere on your guitar.

 

And honestly - good luck with that. Another apology that I did not read closely, but it looks like you're disassembling different elements and reassembling ... that's pretty much what I'd do.

 

However, let me add these observations:

* it can be EXTREMELY difficult to 'place' a rattle, directionally speaking. Try to keep this in mind as you slowly go crazy (" ... it was coming from RIGHT THERE ... I know it! .... ").

* Sadly, sometimes there are not one but more than one sympathetic rattles on/in a guitar. This, of course, is the ultimate head-fudge: you 'fix' one and .... PROBLEM NOT SOLVED!!!! Don't give up.

* Personally, when I've had mystery rattles, a lot of the time it was either around the pickups or somewhere in the body cavity. Have you removed the pickup rings yet?

 

[DeepEnd]

. . . I'd say that you have a loose, hidden item somewhere that vibrates sympathetically with notes fretted on your D string. . . .

 

. . . * it can be EXTREMELY difficult to 'place' a rattle, directionally speaking. Try to keep this in mind as you slowly go crazy (" ... it was coming from RIGHT THERE ... I know it! .... "). . . .

. . . * Personally, when I've had mystery rattles, a lot of the time it was either around the pickups or somewhere in the body cavity. Have you removed the pickup rings yet?

Did you read the post where the problem goes away when the OP grips the end of the headstock? At one point I was going to suggest checking for loose headstock veneer (does an Explorer even have a veneered headstock?)

To the OP: Here's a thought: If you haven't taken the guitar back to your tech yet, see if you can borrow a stethoscope. Mechanics use them to trace noises in cars.