New pickup for single pickup guitar

[OsirisProtocol]

Hey all. I'm am looking for a replacement pickup for my Ibanez RS410. For reference it is a single bridge pickup guitar.The body is either alder or basswood (not sure which) and it has a maple neck with rosewood fretboard. I'm looking for a pickup that would give me warm and articulate jazz tones with the tone rolled back. Then a slightly brighter tone with a nice warm bottom end and a round and unshrill top end if that makes any sense. I guess I'm kind of looking for a humbucker that would get me a sort of warm airy, jazzy, semi-hollow kind of tone in a solid body guitar if that is even possible. I'm mostly using this guitar for clean stuff in the vein of This Town Needs Guns (TTNG) and Death Cab For Cutie. Being able to get warm, chewy, bluesy overdriven tones in the style of Davy Knowles or even an Arctic Monkeys kind of drive would be a bonus as well but I am most so focusing on the clean tone of this guitar. I am also thinking of going with a neck pickup in the bridge position as I feel it will have a warmer character. That is just a thought though and I'm open to all suggestions as sound samples can only get me so far in my search without real world feedback. Thanks for any help.

[Radar-Love]

• ...looking for a pickup that would give me warm and articulate jazz tones with the tone rolled back.
  
• ...a slightly brighter tone with a nice warm bottom end and a round and unshrill top end if that makes any sense.
  
• ...looking for a humbucker that would get me a sort of warm airy, jazzy, semi-hollow kind of tone in a solid body guitar if that is even possible. I'm mostly using this guitar for clean stuff​.
  
• Being able to get warm, chewy, bluesy overdriven tones in the style of Davy Knowles or even an Arctic Monkeys kind of drive would be a bonus as well...

​

 

 

 

You can actually do all of the above with a so-called PAF humbucker, or a slightly refined version of the original 1950s Gibson "Patent Applied For" humbucker, along with your guitar's tone control that has been setup with the right selection of treble bleed capacitor and potentiometer values.

 

 

What you don't want to get into -- without a doubt -- are any of the overwound "distortion" pickups. Overwound basically means muddy dark tone without articulation. The mud stays even if you roll down the volume. A so-called PAF pickup will have around 5000 winds of 42 gauge magnet wire on both bobbins, which equals about 8 kΩ of total DC resistance for the humbucker.

 

 

The bar magnet is just as important as the amount of winds. An AlNiCo II magnet is not overly strong and will provide clear and bright tone without harshness. AlNiCo V is a stronger magnet that will produce higher pickup output, really more strength than you may need -- edgy, but not necessarily harsh sounding, especially if the AlNiCo V bar magnet has been "aged" (i.e. -- degaussed slightly) to make it closer to AlNiCo IV magnet strength. Ceramic (a.k.a. -- ferrite) is too strong of a magnet for an 8 kΩ PAF application in this case. In theory, you could under-wind a pickup with a ceramic magnet to compensate for the magnet's strength, but it would likely sound somewhat sterile.

 

 

So, the ideal starting point, and quite probably the best choice for your RoadStar setup will be a PAF wind (usually spec'd at something close to 8 kilo-ohms) with an AlNiCo II magnet.

 

 

I'm guessing you'll prefer the open coil humbucker look as opposed to the covered look. An open coil humbucker will be a bit brighter and more open sounding than a covered humbucker. For jazz, or warm neck pickup sounds, you can easily control the brightness by rolling off some of the treble on the guitar tone control.

 

 

- - - - - - - - - - -

 

Seymour Duncan makes some excellent AlNiCo II humbuckers. Below is the standard AlNiCo Pro II neck model, as opposed to the Slash Signature AlNiCo II Pro model (more expensive).

 

 

 

$79.95 each

Seymour Duncan APH-1b Alnico II Pro Bridge Humbucker

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/seymour-duncan-aph-1b-alnico-ii-pro-bridge-humbucker

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you want to test the AlNiCo II PAF humbucker waters, but don't want to spend much, the GFS "Professional Series" models are an excellent deal for the money. For the price of one name brand AlNiCo II humbucker pickup, you can get a couple of these GFS "Professional Series" pickups -- such as one AlNiCo II and one AlNiCo V model.

 

 

$39.95 each

 

GFS professional Series Alnico II Humbucker Zebra Case Bridge Pickup

http://www.guitarfetish.com/GFS-professional-Series-Alnico-II-Humbucker-Zebra-Case-Bridge-Pickup_p_4163.html

 

 

 

 

If you feel that you want to go with a humbucker that uses a stronger AlNiCo V magnet (higher pickup output with normal PAF coils winding for no-mud clarity), there is the inexpensive GFS pickup shown above with a AlNiCo V for $38.95 each...

 

http://www.guitarfetish.com/GFS-professional-Series-Alnico-V-Humbucker-Zebra-Case-Bridge-Pickup_p_4166.html

 

 

 

 

...or maybe a DiMarzio PAF DP103:

$74.99 each

 

DiMarzio PAF DP103 Humbucker 36th Anniversary Guitar Pickup

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/dimarzio-paf-dp103-humbucker-36th-anniversary-guitar-pickup

 

 

 

 

 

I've always like the Dean Leslie West Mountain Of Tone Humbucker for its balance of clean no-mud tone and output via AlNiCo V magnet.

$89.00 each

 

Dean Leslie West Mountain of Tone Humbucker

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/dean-leslie-west-mountain-of-tone-humbucker-pickup?pfm=rv

 

 

 

There are more many PAF pickups on the market, including some -- but not many -- AlNiCo II models. There are even some humbuckers with AlNiCo IV magnets.

 

As far as looks go: DiMarzio has trademark rights to the double-creme style bobbins. Everyone else has double-black or zebra bobbin styles.

 

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Ibanez uses pretty good pickups. Not sure how far you'll get with a swap.

 

What you described for jazz tones is exactly what you get from a guitar with a neck pickup. You cannot get neck pickup tones from a bridge pickup. Each position has different harmonic content. You may want top just save yourself a big disappointment and just get a guitar with a neck pickup because you'll never get those same kinds of tones just swapping the bridge pup. Here's why...

 

http://www.frudua.com/pickups_placement.htm

 

 

[gardo]

Ibanez uses pretty good pickups. Not sure how far you'll get with a swap.

 

What you described for jazz tones is exactly what you get from a guitar with a neck pickup. You cannot get neck pickup tones from a bridge pickup. Each position has different harmonic content. You may want top just save yourself a big disappointment and just get a guitar with a neck pickup because you'll never get those same kinds of tones just swapping the bridge pup. Here's why...

 

http://www.frudua.com/pickups_placement.htm

 

 

I rarely use the bridge pickup on any of my guitars unless I'm after a "rock tone". For smooth and clean it's neck or middle.

[knotty]

 

I rarely use the bridge pickup on any of my guitars unless I'm after a "rock tone". For smooth and clean it's neck or middle.

 

+1

Bridge for me is usually harsh and brittle.

 

[billybilly]

I second Radarlove's suggestion and will take it one step further... Turn your pickup upside-down, it takes some of the "edge" off the pickup and gives you a thicker sound.

 

From Radarlove.... "Seymour Duncan makes some excellent AlNiCo II humbuckers. Below is the standard AlNiCo Pro II neck model, as opposed to the Slash Signature AlNiCo II Pro model (more expensive). "

 

 

 

$79.95 each

Seymour Duncan APH-1b Alnico II Pro Bridge Humbucker

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/acces...idge-humbucker

[gardo]

I second Radarlove's suggestion and will take it one step further... Turn your pickup upside-down, it takes some of the "edge" off the pickup and gives you a thicker sound.

Good idea,this will help

[DeepEnd]

Ibanez uses pretty good pickups. Not sure how far you'll get with a swap.

 

What you described for jazz tones is exactly what you get from a guitar with a neck pickup. . . .

^ This was my first thought as well. I'm not sure you can get what you want from your current guitar. If it's stock, your Ibanez RS410 already has a humbucking pickup, although perhaps not quite what you want. You might try rolling off the tone control a bit but if that doesn't do it you'll need to look at different guitars.

[WRGKMC]

I'd just think about putting another pickup in it. That guitar would probably sound tits with a Mini Humbucker by the neck and then you'd be able to get those tones you want. Minis are often used on Jazz guitars as neck mount add on's and you do have several options for them. I'd stay away for mixing a P90 and Ibanez pickup. I tried that exact combination on my one builds using an Ibanez FZ1 and the P90 didn't match the higher HB output. Since I had the hole cut for a P90 already I was able to use a Mini in a Gibson surround and that guitar smoked after that.

 

You can also buy Ibanez Humbuckers cheap on EBay all the time. I believe they are mostly all made by Seymour Duncan and are often tagged as Seymour Designed so like I said they are very good sounding pickups. http://www.seymourduncan.com/support..._are_the_sp_1/

 

Here's about 600 results on EBay and most sell used between $25 and $50. You can save a nice chunk of change over buying an actual Seymour and have a sound that is nearly as good. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...ckups&_sacat=0

 

The only hard part about adding a pickup is routing the hole. I usually use a Dremmil for this. I tape off the area real good then draw the hole from a pickup ring. I then use hack saw blades taped down to act as dead stop limiters for routing and just route the hole out. Then you simply need an extra long drill bit to drill the hole for the wire and you mount the pickup and solder it in. I'd dump the tone pot and just use it as a second volume.

[OsirisProtocol]

Radar:

Thanks for all the insight. I'm going to look into the 36th Anniversary and and APH-1 pickups a bit more. I'll get more sounds samples of those pickups and pickups with the same style specs.

 

Billybilly:

Thanks for the pickup flipping tip. That gave me an idea that I am going to run by my tech tomorrow. I wonder what a flipped neck pickup in the bridge position would sound.

[gardo]

.

 

Billybilly:

Thanks for the pickup flipping tip. That gave me an idea that I am going to run by my tech tomorrow. I wonder what a flipped neck pickup in the bridge position would sound.

The string spacing will be off . The differences between a neck and bridge pickup are string spacing and output,with the bridge being a little hotter for better balance between the two. You can get a lower output bridge pickup if you want one and still have the correct string spacing.

[OsirisProtocol]

The string spacing will be off . The differences between a neck and bridge pickup are string spacing and output,with the bridge being a little hotter for better balance between the two. You can get a lower output bridge pickup if you want one and still have the correct string spacing.

I'll most likely go with a bridge pickup but I have to admit I am interested that set up.

[gardo]

I'll most likely go with a bridge pickup but I have to admit I am interested that set up.

I would flip your presnt pickup just to hear the difference, Measure the distance between the pickup and the strings ,loosen the strings flip it around and re tune. Check the distance to the strings and make any adjustments. I set the bridge at 1/16" with the strings held down at the last fret. Listen to the tone.you may find that raisng or lowering the pickup very slightly will dail it in.

Make sure you only flip the pickup its self and not the mounting ring or the angle between the pickup and the strings will be off.

[WRGKMC]

Pickup flipping can have issues you should be aware of. One is the wire on the pickup is mounted on one side and the hole for that wire is usually on the same side. There might not be enough slack in the wire to run it across to the other side and there may not be enough space in the pickup route to run the wire. You're gong from the lower right side of the cavity and running the wire to the upper left side across the bottom of the route when you flip it.

 

The wire can also get pinched in the springs and height adjustment screws and require additional routing so the wire isn't pinched by the bottom of the pickup or tabs. Some routes wont allow the space under the pickup and you cant adjust the pickup low enough. The pickup tabs may be angled and you wind up with a reverse tilt on it requiring the tabs to be bent to add tilt. After all that hassle you may not wind up with any difference in tone. I've put tons of pickups in guitars both ways and the tonal difference didn't amount to a hill of beans.

 

Using the pole screws on the neck side may help a little change but you're only moving them 1" farther from the bridge which isn't much. No where close to having a neck pickup several inches away from the bridge.

 

If that mild difference is what you wanted then you're in good shape. I just advise not getting your hopes up too high. You get more effect flipping one pup when you have a second pickup to contrast its changes when you mix the two together. With a single pickup, the change is so small its rarely worth the effort. The two coils are identical. They have to be wound the same to have hum bucking. The coils are reverse wound but the magnet polarities are also reversed on each so there's really no difference between the two sides except for the adjustable poles that may make some change if you utilize them.

 

My advice is go ahead and try it if you have the wire slack and don't have to resort to routing or extending the wire and all that crap. The best way of knowing these things is to have first hand experience with them. Again if that small change is what you want, then you're in good shape. If not you learned a valuable lesson for the future.

[billybilly]

Pickup flipping can have issues you should be aware of. One is the wire on the pickup is mounted on one side and the hole for that wire is usually on the same side. There might not be enough slack in the wire to run it across to the other side and there may not be enough space in the pickup route to run the wire. You're gong from the lower right side of the cavity and running the wire to the upper left side across the bottom of the route when you flip it.

 

The wire can also get pinched in the springs and height adjustment screws and require additional routing so the wire isn't pinched by the bottom of the pickup or tabs. Some routes wont allow the space under the pickup and you cant adjust the pickup low enough. The pickup tabs may be angled and you wind up with a reverse tilt on it requiring the tabs to be bent to add tilt. After all that hassle you may not wind up with any difference in tone. I've put tons of pickups in guitars both ways and the tonal difference didn't amount to a hill of beans.

 

Using the pole screws on the neck side may help a little change but you're only moving them 1" farther from the bridge which isn't much. No where close to having a neck pickup several inches away from the bridge.

 

If that mild difference is what you wanted then you're in good shape. I just advise not getting your hopes up too high. You get more effect flipping one pup when you have a second pickup to contrast its changes when you mix the two together. With a single pickup, the change is so small its rarely worth the effort. The two coils are identical. They have to be wound the same to have hum bucking. The coils are reverse wound but the magnet polarities are also reversed on each so there's really no difference between the two sides except for the adjustable poles that may make some change if you utilize them.

 

My advice is go ahead and try it if you have the wire slack and don't have to resort to routing or extending the wire and all that crap. The best way of knowing these things is to have first hand experience with them. Again if that small change is what you want, then you're in good shape. If not you learned a valuable lesson for the future.

 

 

The above is a lot of over thinking, misinformation and BS in my opinion. For example, it's not hard to place the pick lead in a spot which where it is safe from the pickup height adjustment springs and screws. Secondly, I don't know about you, but when I flip the pickup, I don't just flip the mounting ring, I flip the pickup inside the mounting ring (taking it out of the mounting ring and flipping it). Finally, flipping the pickup in the bridge changes the sound quite dramatically. You may not think so but I can hear it big-time.

 

[knotty]

Pickup flipping can have issues you should be aware of. One is the wire on the pickup is mounted on one side and the hole for that wire is usually on the same side. There might not be enough slack in the wire to run it across to the other side and there may not be enough space in the pickup route to run the wire. You're gong from the lower right side of the cavity and running the wire to the upper left side across the bottom of the route when you flip it.

 

The wire can also get pinched in the springs and height adjustment screws and require additional routing so the wire isn't pinched by the bottom of the pickup or tabs. Some routes wont allow the space under the pickup and you cant adjust the pickup low enough. The pickup tabs may be angled and you wind up with a reverse tilt on it requiring the tabs to be bent to add tilt. After all that hassle you may not wind up with any difference in tone. I've put tons of pickups in guitars both ways and the tonal difference didn't amount to a hill of beans.

 

Using the pole screws on the neck side may help a little change but you're only moving them 1" farther from the bridge which isn't much. No where close to having a neck pickup several inches away from the bridge.

 

If that mild difference is what you wanted then you're in good shape. I just advise not getting your hopes up too high. You get more effect flipping one pup when you have a second pickup to contrast its changes when you mix the two together. With a single pickup, the change is so small its rarely worth the effort. The two coils are identical. They have to be wound the same to have hum bucking. The coils are reverse wound but the magnet polarities are also reversed on each so there's really no difference between the two sides except for the adjustable poles that may make some change if you utilize them.

 

My advice is go ahead and try it if you have the wire slack and don't have to resort to routing or extending the wire and all that crap. The best way of knowing these things is to have first hand experience with them. Again if that small change is what you want, then you're in good shape. If not you learned a valuable lesson for the future.

 

Nurse, hes out of bed again!

 

To the OP. Try it flipped. The odds are you wont strangle yourself with earth wire or burn the house down. Its easy and as billybilly says, it makes a noticeabe difference. If its not enough you can always flip it back.

You may need a hard hat, goggles and hi-viz jacket for that though.

[DeepEnd]

The string spacing will be off. The differences between a neck and bridge pickup are string spacing and output, . . .

OTOH, all three pickups in a Strat typically have the same spacing and when I asked about this with regard to my own Strat I was told it wasn't an issue. A rail pickup would get around that, say a Seymour Duncan P Rails http://www.seymourduncan.com/product.../prails_shpr1/ but they're not cheap and I don't know if the OP would get the sound he's after.

[gardo]

OTOH, all three pickups in a Strat typically have the same spacing and when I asked about this with regard to my own Strat I was told it wasn't an issue. A rail pickup would get around that, say a Seymour Duncan P Rails http://www.seymourduncan.com/product.../prails_shpr1/ but they're not cheap and I don't know if the OP would get the sound he's after.

I may have the wrong idea but I have the feeling that he wants a neck pickup in the bridge posistion because everyone is telling him how good the neck pickups sound. . But the trick is the posistion more than the pickup so putting a neck pickup in the bridge posistion is not the best approach.

[DeepEnd]

I may have the wrong idea but I have the feeling that he wants a neck pickup in the bridge posistion because everyone is telling him how good the neck pickups sound. . But the trick is the posistion more than the pickup so putting a neck pickup in the bridge posistion is not the best approach.

You're right but one of the arguments against a neck pickup in that position was string spacing, which is a relatively minor detail IMHO. My original advice was to roll off the tone control and if that didn't work get a different guitar. The SD P Rails looks like a fairly versatile pickup and I thought he might be able to coax a satisfying sound out of it but again they're not cheap.

[OsirisProtocol]

This thread has gone nowhere and I'd like to end it here. Again I thank Radar-Love and billybilly for actually being helpful and giving actual feedback to my question. I'd also like to thank knotty and gardo for their actual contributions as well. Cheers everyone.

[Radar-Love]

In my ramblings in post #2, I briefly mentioned potentiometers and a capacitor, but did not elaborate.

 

Unless you've already modified your Roadstar, both of the single humbucker models I've ever seen have always had just a volume control. To add a necessary tone control, you won't have to alter the body by drilling a second hole for a tone control (unless you really want to). You can get a concentric potentiometer (a.k.a. -- "stacked pots") and have both volume and tone in one control hole with the stacked knobs.

 

If you are into using your pinky finger to do volume swells with the volume knob simultaneously as you pick, the best setup is the have the bottom pot + knob setup as volume and the top pot + knob setup as tone. The concentric pot shown below is a nice dependable CTS 500KΩ + 500KΩ model. There are also 250KΩ + 250KΩ and 250KΩ + 500KΩ models as well. Unfortunately, as far as I know, you can't get concentric potentiometers with some of the specialty ohm ratings such as 300KΩ or 1MΩ that are available with single potentiometers. With a humbucker, you will be better off with a 500KΩ + 500KΩ model.

 

 

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/CPCS55/CTS-Stacked-Dual-Concentric-Audio-Pot-500K500K.html

 

 

 

 

As for stacked knobs sets for concentric pots, I'm guessing that you would likely be better off with a knob set with a round top knob. The flat top knob set works great when you have two or more stacked knob sets that are situated next to each other. Otherwise, the flat top knob set seems a bit more vulnerable and/or less resilient to accidental contact in my experience when it sits out alone by itself.

 

Make sure the stacked knob set is compatible with the concentric potentiometer you go with. Most knob sets that are compatible with CTS shafts will normally say so in their description. Just like all of the other popular metal knobs out there in the marketplace, black or chrome are the two most popular choices for stacked knob sets, but, you can get black + chrome also (e.g. -- top chrome / bottom black) or all gold.

http://www.guitarpartsresource.com/guitarknobs_stackknobs.htm

 

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/category/parts___hardware.knobs/

 

 

 

 

The tone circuit capacitor:

 

After you install your new humbucker and tone control, you will need to install a capacitor to shape your high frequency rolloff. Generally, the best affordable modern tone capacitors are the so-called orange drop polypropylene capacitors from Sprague.

 

To find the best capacitor value to get the tone you want, you will at least need to get a 0.033μF (microfarad) capacitor as well as a 0.047μF capacitor and try each in the tone circuit. You may also want to get a 0.022μF capacitor to try. The higher the capacitance value, the more rolloff of high frequency or "darkness" / "warmth" there is in the circuit. There are slightly discounted packs of Sprague orange drop capacitors available from various vendors, which contain a wide range of usable values for people that need to perform circuit experimentation. Here's one such pack:

 

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/TCO-MULTI-5/Orange-Drop-Capacitor-Multi-Pack-5-01MFD-068MFD.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DeepEnd]

. . . Unless you've already modified your Roadstar' date=' both of the single humbucker models I've ever seen have always had just a volume control. . . .[/quote']

Oops. My bad. In telling the OP to "turn down the tone control" I forgot the RS410 didn't have one. He'd have to accomplish the same thing at the amp.

[Radar-Love]

...flipping the pickup in the bridge changes the sound quite dramatically.

 

 

I would generally agree that rotating most Gibson-style bridge humbuckers does indeed make a noticeable difference in tonality, but that's not really the case with the neck pickup -- unless one spends all of their time playing on the 20th-and-above frets where you are up against the humbucker.

 

A humbucker with a broad and unfocused magnetic field (read: muddy as the Mississippi river), whether in the bridge or neck positions, won't provide any noticeable difference in tonality if you rotate it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Radar-Love]

I may have the wrong idea but I have the feeling that he wants a neck pickup in the bridge posistion because everyone is telling him how good the neck pickups sound. . But the trick is the posistion more than the pickup so putting a neck pickup in the bridge posistion is not the best approach.

 

 

 

Neck position pickups are the same as bridge pickups, except the neck often has a lower wind count (DC ohms) to balance the average volume between the two pickups.

 

In the 6-string Fender world, the poles are centered farther apart on the bridge pickup than just about everybody else. The 6-string low-E - to - high-E pole distance on a Gibson is 50 mm, on a Fender it's 52 mm.

 

For a Van Halen setup with a single slanted humbucker on a Strat body, you actually want to go with the 50 mm "Gibson" width, because the poles on both coils of the uncovered humbucker line up nicely under the strings with the 15 degree Strat bridge pickup angle.

 

 

 

[DeepEnd]

Neck position pickups are the same as bridge pickups' date=' except the neck often has a lower wind count (DC ohms) to balance the average volume between the two pickups. . . .[/quote']

But isn't the whole point of how a neck pickup sounds that it's installed in the neck position? The OP's guitar has no neck pickup so he's kinda out of luck there, which is why I suggested he get a different guitar.