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intonation at its limit but still flat


Dadking

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I have an old squire strat from the 90s and just cannot get reasonable intonation on the top B and E strings, the twelve fret is always flat

I have moved the saddle as close as possible to towards the neck but just cant go any further as its now hitting the 6 mounting screws.

Any help would be much appreciated

A brief summary of the guitar

Squire strat built in the nineties fitted De addario 9 - 42 strings about 1 month old, but new strings give the same problem but not as bad

I fitted a piece of card from a cigarette paper box under the neck join at the body end just to give a little bit of tilt to the neck, the springs

under the tailpiece have been set so that the string holes are roughly in the middle of the perspex guide holes making the block sit roughly

in the middle of the cavity. Measuring the distance from open fret to twelve fret is slightly longer than twelve fret to bridge dont know if this is

relevant or not.

Any help would be appreciated

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1. Is the Action set particularly high?

2. (a long shot here) If you didn't have it from new is it the original neck /body or could there have been a swap with a different scale length part? (usually 25.5)

3. the bridge has been repositioned because some amateur stripped the bridge screws by tightening them right down not realizing they are a pivot, (just taking it off will tell you that)

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. Measuring the distance from open fret to twelve fret is slightly longer than twelve fret to bridge dont know if this is

relevant or not.

 

Measure both of those accurately and tell us what they are (to a 32nd of an inch) nut to 12, 12 to bridge.

 

Tune the guitar with a good tuner. Fret the 1st and 2nd string at 12 and tell us how many cents the tuner says they are off (and whether flat or sharp). Play the 12th fret harmonic and tell us if the tuner says it is off. Remember that your ear can detect 5 cents or so - the more accurate your tuner is the better we can adjust this.

 

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1. Is the Action set particularly high? . . .

High action would cause the note to be sharp, not flat.

 

Ignore everything written in this thread until you do this' date=' . . .[/quote']

No, just no. The OP knows how to adjust intonation already. Telling him to ignore good advice won't help and could very well hurt.

My mounting screws are six fairly ordinary round head wood screws. They stick up far enough that, under the right circumstances, the saddles could conceivably touch them. It sounds like that's what is happening here. Pics would certainly help.

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I bought a Squire in late 1998, if the serial number starts with a Y, those Squires had lots of problems before they started making then better in the 2000's, in China.

Many of them had neck pockets that were not cut too deep or cut too deep, had bridges that were not measured and cut properly or had bridges set so either the low or high E would be falling off the neck.

you got options here from all the good advise given here.

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Okay, I've had a chance to take a good look at my Fernandes. Take the measurements Freeman Keller suggested and some pics if possible and report back. It's possible you can install a longer screw and raise the saddles so they "straddle" the mounting screws. That way, you can move the saddles past the edges of the screws if you need to. The downside would be very high action. I don't think there's a perfect solution but you may find something you can live with.

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High action would cause the note to be sharp, not flat.

Normally you would be correct

I was asking that in the context of points 2 and 3 since he said he had been packing the neck joint at the body end to "increase"? tilt which didn't make sense to me. So I was trying to figure where the geometry of the guitar might be wrong.

Since 'up to the bridge screws' is a quarter to half an inch from the expected saddle position my money is still on a repositioned bridge , I would check that first. (If we had photos the bridge to pickguard gap would be the clue)

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I fitted a piece of card from a cigarette paper box under the neck join at the body end just to give a little bit of tilt to the neck, the springs

under the tailpiece have been set so that the string holes are roughly in the middle of the perspex guide holes making the block sit roughly

in the middle of the cavity. Measuring the distance from open fret to twelve fret is slightly longer than twelve fret to bridge dont know if this is

relevant or not. Any help would be appreciated

 

I'm not sure what you're doing here and by your description it sounds like you don't know either. Neck tilt is a matter of how high your saddles need to be. Cardboard is not the best shim because it absorbs vibration. You need to measure string height and saddle height and get the saddle screws so they are about 1MM above the saddles and shim the neck if needed only.

 

I'm not sure how you measured the scale length here, it isn't quite clear.

 

You measure, is from the inside of the nut to the center of the 12th fret. Then measure from the center of the 12th fret to the string contact point on the High E saddle and it should match. At that point the High E should just be slightly sharp in intonation with all other adjustments correct.

 

All your other saddles should be slightly longer then scale lengths, never shorter. If you are having to extend the saddles any longer then scale length you have some other major issue going involving string height, relief, neck twist, fret problems, bad strings, or a combination of many smaller issues.

 

You should follow this setup guide to confirm all your adjustments are within specs before you start tweaking anything. http://www.fender.com/support/articl...r-setup-guide/

 

For the bridge, I'm not sure what you are trying to do there. The adjustment for the bridge is to tune the guitar to pitch with a tuner. Pluck the G string and pull up on the whammy so the bridge touches the body. The string should go up in pitch from a G to an A note and stop with the bridge resting on the body. If its a Floyd type bridge it sits parallel to the body or in alignment with the neck angle.

 

After the whammy is set, Then and only then can you properly check string height and intonation, and you may have to come back to that adjustment several times after setting other adjustments. A guitar is a tempered instrument with tempered adjustments under stress of the strings. When you make one adjustment, it affects all the others so you have to cycle them over and over till there are no adjustments to be made.

 

You need to check, string height, Neck Relief, Intonation, Whammy height over and over, cycle the adjustments using the tools in that article, in the upright playing position so the weight of the neck doesn't pull on the strings. I'd also suggest you adjust your pickups down a bit so their magnets aren't pulling down on the strings. Setting them to specs in that same article should be good enough.

 

 

A quick check for neck relief is to hold the first and last fret down on a string and pluck the string in between. The strings should just clear all strings in between. Also hold the last fret down and pluck the string at the 7th fret. The nut should be high enough so the strings clear all frets between the nut and last fret. Take into compensation fret wear with both of these adjustments. If you have worn frets that need leveling, this test will usually indicate the center frets worn more then the end frets.

 

If you have the strings touching frets in between with either of these tests, you need to loosen the truss slightly, no more then 1/8 of a turn at a time and wait for a few days for the neck to settle in. Mark the nut with a marker before tweaking it so you know exactly where you started with the adjustment and can get back to it.

 

You may also want to get a set of under string radius gauges so you can get the string height to follow the fret radius. You simply set the high and low E string heights and use the radius gauge to set all the other frets.

 

If you get everything set to specs and you still have flat notes. Take it to a professional because you're obviously missing something critical. It can even be the strings. Strings are measured by hours of actual playing time, not days. When in doubt, swap them out. All the adjustments above should be done with new strings properly installed and properly stretched.

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No, just no. The OP knows how to adjust intonation already. Telling him to ignore good advice won't help and could very well hurt.

My mounting screws are six fairly ordinary round head wood screws. They stick up far enough that, under the right circumstances, the saddles could conceivably touch them. It sounds like that's what is happening here. Pics would certainly help.

 

 

 

Wait, what? The OP has not stated his method for how he tried to set the intonation.

Have you read his mind or something?

 

There is a prevailing ignorance amongst guitarists about setting intonation and the image I posted dispels this ignorance. I'd make a bet that his method for setting the intonation is not correct and that that is why he is having this problem.

 

So, I stand by my statement. OP, Ignore everything in this thread until you follow the instructions in the image that I posted. If that does not work (which it will) then proceed.

 

 

 

 

 

10640998_10152410476145488_898289570199522197_n.jpg?oh=73233abdb30ec56f2fe05866b8008e1b&oe=5496A2A0&__gda__=1419237360_24a5ce9c0a3a40bcc76ec0e8d99a6838

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Did you know the word "nice" originally meant stupid ?

 

 

 

Main Entry: nice audio.gif

Pronunciation: primarystress.gifnimacr.gifs

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English nice "foolish, stupid," from early French nice (same meaning), from Latin nescius"ignorant," from nescire "not to know," from ne- "not" and scire "to know" --related to SCIENCE

1 : finicky in tastes or habits

2 a : not obvious : SUBTLE b :having the ability to notice small differences

3 : PLEASING, AGREEABLE

4 : well behaved : RESPECTABLE

- nice·ly adverb

- nice·ness noun

Word History Five hundred years ago, when nice was first used in English, it meant "foolish or stupid." This is not as surprising as it may seem, since it came through early French from the Latin nescius, meaning "ignorant." By the 16th century, the sense of being "very particular" or "finicky" had developed. In the 19th century, nicecame to mean "pleasant or agreeable" and then "respectable," a sense quite unlike its original meaning.

 

 

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Lots of conflicting advice here. The rule in my shop is that before I touch anything I measure everything and write it all down. That's what I'm asking the OP to do - he should add things like the action height, relief and neck angle to the things I asked for. Only when you know the starting point can you decide what direction to go.

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Lots of conflicting advice here. The rule in my shop is that before I touch anything I measure everything and write it all down. That's what I'm asking the OP to do - he should add things like the action height' date=' relief and neck angle to the things I asked for. Only when you know the starting point can you decide what direction to go.[/quote']

 

Exactly

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Wait, what? The OP has not stated his method for how he tried to set the intonation.

Have you read his mind or something?

 

There is a prevailing ignorance amongst guitarists about setting intonation and the image I posted dispels this ignorance. I'd make a bet that his method for setting the intonation is not correct and that that is why he is having this problem. . . .

And you'd probably lose that bet. I don't have to read his mind. Setting intonation isn't rocket science and most guitarists know how to do it. If you were talking about setting relief I'd agree. Lots of ignorance there. My gut is telling me the bridge position or possibly the neck position is off. The simplest cure for that is a new body, which can be had on eBay for under $50. Or find a "project" Strat on CraigsList and cannibalize it for parts. Whether this particular guitar is worth the investment is unknown. We still don't have pics or measurements. In the meantime, the "the OP is a moron" approach isn't particularly constructive. It's just a chance for you to be a pedant. Granted, you do it very well but it's not what the discussion needs.

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Well What can I say I am absolutely stunned by the amount of replies Thanks to everyone

I will start by saying a very old luthier friend of mine a Mr Burns showed me this little tip about putting a cigarette card or Cigarette Paper card under the neck join to adjust the angle, now this was way back in the sixties so maybe technology has improved since then ,machine or carving wise that it may no longer be nessassary, by the way I am now in my sixties and have been playing guitar a long time, although still not good..

I have ten assorted guitars some good some bad, This particular squire is used for rehearsals so was used every day for about four hours, the frets are badly worn. As for the action I have always adjusted the action as low as possible before I get any buzzes or dampening, I have now taken it out of service because of this problem, It was painful to my ears listening to bands rehearse with it.

I have read the fender article on setting up guitars and followed their instructions but cannot adjust the intonation any further. Now this guitar was bought second hand so i cannot guarantee its pedigree.

Later today I will take some measurements and photos and post them. I also have another fender strat that I will also compare measurements too.

Once again thanks for all the responses.

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Lots of conflicting advice here. The rule in my shop is that before I touch anything I measure everything and write it all down. That's what I'm asking the OP to do - he should add things like the action height' date=' relief and neck angle to the things I asked for. Only when you know the starting point can you decide what direction to go.[/quote']

 

 

I can see why you would want the OP to give you those measurements to help you advise him.

I dont understand why you would do it with a guitar in your workshop? :confused2:

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