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Best power amp for use with amp modeler?

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  • #46
    please read what i said earlier and what Nik said.

    to be absolutely ****************ing clear, modellers need clean headroom (as in no distortion what-so-ever) and full range faithful reproduction of the input signal.

    a legit PA set up will have these:

    headroom - like i mentioned, srm450 and eon 15 g2 will have 300 watts going into low frequency driver ALONE. they will have 100 watts going into the freakin' tweeter.

    full range - no way in hell you can get full range without a tweeter. atomic doesn't have a tweeter.

    excuse my lack of modesty. you can say atomic is very good for modellers. i'll believe you.

    don't use the word best. because it's not the best.


    while i agree modellers do need clean headroom.... i have tried what you suggest multiple times with my boss gt8. there are thread after thread about this topic at bossgtcentral.com

    my experience with doing just wahat you are saying let me in on this..... there is a hiss you cant get rid of when using a PA speaker set up. I then hooked up to a 4x12 stereo cab with my mosvalve 1160 and the hiss was gone. i cant explain it but that is what happened.

    so. my set up is now.... digitech 2120 into mosvalve 1160 into 1x12 detuned cab with legend modelling 12's in stereo.... = pure awesome tone.

    please note the legend modelling 12's are 150 watt power handling more flat response speaker.

    Comment


    • #47
      So is there any cab/power amp that's convenient for a home practice/small gig type setup? I'm interested in getting a modeller for the versatility and DI recording capabilities but I don't want to spend a ton of money to be able to practice with it without headphones and sound good. the Tech21 Power Engine looks pretty cool, and Tech21 claims it recreates the modeller's tone.

      Comment


      • #48
        Try the Tech 21 power engine.. it's very good for that type of application.
        http://www.guitarampboard.comLike my band on FB: http://www.facebook.com/thefew1All prices include shipping to ConUS.

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        • #49
          my experience with doing just wahat you are saying let me in on this..... there is a hiss you cant get rid of when using a PA speaker set up. I then hooked up to a 4x12 stereo cab with my mosvalve 1160 and the hiss was gone. i cant explain it but that is what happened.


          would majorly depend on the quality of the PA. better PA (specifically, better power amp and balanced cables) would have solved it. as for the explanation why hiss went away is that the hiss is entirely from the tweeter. a 12" speaker just can't faithfully reproduce a hiss even if it wanted to. (unless of course they are some rare specialized full-range single speaker things. they exist.)

          as for why the hiss was there to begin with, probably not-so-great power amp. (i'm assuming you got the same sort of hiss you get when you turn up the volume too loud on a cheap home stereo with nothing playing.)

          Comment


          • #50
            if you're going 100% traditional, that's cool with me. not saying your tube amp stops working because modellers are here.

            but what i'm wondering about is, how do you resolve the fact that the guys who made the modellers say "our products are meant to be used with full-range set up. if you are not, you are doing it wrong and you will get less than what you paid for" and you saying "running a modeller through full range is stupid. i will run mine through a tube power amp and a guitar cab."

            i mean it's just how they MADE it. how they were programmed, how they were tested, how they were intended. for best possible operation. just read a manual, please. i know it's a thick manual and you don't use a modeller. that's fine. don't use a modeller and stick to other things. just don't pretend like you know what you're talking about when it comes to MODELLERS which you don't use and which you are clueless about.

            i haven't said **************** about running your old tube preamp through a PA without a guitar cab. that's stupid. don't do it. we have no disagreements when there are no modellers in the picture. it's just that you are clueless about any set up involving a modeller.

            i'm not going to continue feeding a troll. btw i am a beginner guitar player but i happen to be a student of electrical engineering and a qualified sound guy. but you don't have to take it on my authority. i strongly suggest you read the manual or talk to the manufacturer for suggested usage. just ask them which set up will be better. modeller through tube amp and 4x12 or a modeller through a pair of mackie srm450.

            i'm not suggesting that Electric Catfish do so. because he doesn't use a modeller so he doesn't need to know how to use one. and that's perfectly okay. probably he gets great sounds out of real tube amps, no doubt. but anyone else who is actually considering using a modeller should learn what the correct way to use it is.


            Isn't the Atomic (the device we were talking about) SPECIFICALLY designed for use with modellers? Maybe you should "read the manual" to that...I mean, I know it's thick manual....

            You like to throw the word "clueless" around a lot, for a beginner. A "student" of electrical engineering, but I don't have to take it on your "authority"??? Really? Thanks.

            What, specifically, does being a "qualified sound guy" entail?
            Pigpen said it was OK!







            Originally Posted by mdog114


            Boy, you should REALLY go back and slap you're teachers!

            Comment


            • #51
              Isn't the Atomic (the device we were talking about) SPECIFICALLY designed for use with modellers? Maybe you should "read the manual" to that...I mean, I know it's thick manual....

              You like to throw the word "clueless" around a lot, for a beginner. A "student" of electrical engineering, but I don't have to take it on your "authority"??? Really? Thanks.

              What, specifically, does being a "qualified sound guy" entail?


              atomic is specifically made for modellers, yes. but it's not as good as real legit PA. but it's better than other guitar setups for the purpose of running modellers through.

              atomic has its place. mainly it's cheaper than a nice PA. but it's not as good as PA. for the reasons that i've mentioned before.

              if you don't want to buy PA gear, then go for these tech21 and atomic products. they are cheaper than a PA gear and maybe you can't tell the difference. just saying PA gears are the best, in the sense that no other solution mentioned has the capability to reproduce full range frequencies (as in nothing in the 17khz for example) and nothing else guaranteeds flat frequency response throughout the full range frequencies (very important) and nothing else has the 'clean headroom' (like 300+ watts per speaker).

              as for my qualifications, i'd rather not broadcast them in the open. but if you PM me, i can give details with referrals. perhaps you will find it satisfactory.

              Comment


              • #52
                I was running my Pod into a Marshall 9200 Dual Monobloc that I retrofitted with EL34's into a 4x12 with Vintage 30's, sounded amazing. Warmed up the tone very well.
                Good Dealings with: garrettmhaynes, DRPool, friction, themeanreds, JmanX, ProjectX, 6StrngStrangler, Jonny Toetags

                Comment


                • #53
                  would majorly depend on the quality of the PA. better PA (specifically, better power amp and balanced cables) would have solved it. as for the explanation why hiss went away is that the hiss is entirely from the tweeter. a 12" speaker just can't faithfully reproduce a hiss even if it wanted to. (unless of course they are some rare specialized full-range single speaker things. they exist.)

                  as for why the hiss was there to begin with, probably not-so-great power amp. (i'm assuming you got the same sort of hiss you get when you turn up the volume too loud on a cheap home stereo with nothing playing.)


                  i tried this same experiment with ..... JBL 115's 2 way passives with a yamaha brand new PA set up.... I tried it with passive PA peavey neodyniums. I tried it wit the new bose PA. I even tried it with Roland keyboard amps and mackie SRM 450's and JBL eons. dont get me wrong it sounded good. just not great, a little sterile sounding. there was a noticable hiss on certain patches esp acoustic sims. when i switched to the guitar cab it was alot more organic sounding.

                  Just FYI it sounded better with the passives and going through my guitar poweramp. the hiss goes away due to the fact that guitars and amps live in the mid range and having full range speakers is useless. guitar poweramps warm up tone by staying in the range that guitars are meant to stay in. it cuts the really highs which eliminates the hiss.

                  you will not be able to convince me otherwise. i experimented for over a year and a half with this. I did however go with the flattest response speakers i could find with a high overhead for just the purposes we spoke of. I wanted the tone shaping to occur in my preamp not my speakers or power section.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    scottop1972 -
                    tell me more about this "1x12 detuned cab". I can see your point of using the Legend Modeling 12 speakers. They seem to drop off at 5k but then again your modeling an amp and speaker that probably drop off at the same frequencies. I suppose as long as the speaker doesn't color the sound it would ok to use it.

                    I think we can all agree a flat response system is the way to go for modelers. Powered PA speakers and keyboard amps work great.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Atomic amps are wonderful as is a Bose stick.
                      GB #270 in perpetuity

                      That's what's so great about the Internet:
                      It enables pompous blowhards like myself,
                      to connect with other pompous blowhards
                      in a vast circle jerk of pomposity.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Yeah, I love how that one looks. I'd trade my RS1000 for it.



                        Thanks Cratz
                        R I P Leopardstar





                        Originally Posted by jjpistols
                        yeah it's funny to watch internet idiots talk **************** knowing they've never accomplished a ****************in thing musically

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          So is there any cab/power amp that's convenient for a home practice/small gig type setup? I'm interested in getting a modeller for the versatility and DI recording capabilities but I don't want to spend a ton of money to be able to practice with it without headphones and sound good. the Tech21 Power Engine looks pretty cool, and Tech21 claims it recreates the modeller's tone.


                          good stuff, i think

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            you're completely misunderstanding. it's not even funny.

                            no one is saying anything but modellers should be run through full range.

                            this is what i'm saying:

                            guitar -> preamp -> power amp -> cab -> mic -> PA

                            equals

                            guitar -> modeller -> PA

                            also equals

                            guitar -> modeller with cab sim turned off -> power amp -> guitar cab -> mic -> PA

                            but does not equal

                            guitar -> modeller -> anything but full range (which is apparently what everyone else in this forum is doing.)


                            nobody brought up the picture 'guitar -> some chain without either cab simulation or an actual guitar cab -> PA' (except you) because that's not what people are interested in.

                            guitar cabs can produce these harmonics. but in a very particular way. modellers models these harmonics in ways that full range can reproduce them. modellers model these harmonics ways that guitar cabs CANNOT produce them. an exception to this is line 6 stuff that has a special setting for sending it through a guitar cab. (it has to go through some EQ. and it's still not ideal, as guitar cab is not very controlled or precise.)

                            this is just the way modellers were meant to be used. but guitarists are not sound techs and they keep using modellers in ways that they were not intended to be used. this is why i can't trust user reviews of modellers. "it sounds ****************ty" well no ****************. you're using it wrong.

                            if you don't get it, don't worry about it. just stay away from modellers, old timer. and let your sound guys worry about it if you're ever in the position.


                            Wow..........

                            I don't know about tonelabs, but your points would have all been true if you had MIC simulations enabled. You can have mic sims turned off with PODs. Also, if you were running direct recording output. With pods you are open to the adjustabilty of running the modeler as a digital preamp.

                            What's more, you are thinking about Atomics the wrong way. You are talking about running modelers through a PA system. The Atomics is not like your regular PA; It's a tube poweramp stage. When you have your modeler set correctly and running through an Atomic. With all of these aspects combined, an Atomic because an act

                            Properly setup it looks just like:

                            Guitar -> Digital Preamp -> Tube Poweramp -> Cab

                            Allow me to reiterate at this point: My modeler is set to run as a preamp to be run through a power amp stage. It took months of tweaking and trial and error to give it these amp-like qualities (mind you, this is before atomic webforums and before people knew about them to play around with it.)

                            You are thinking too much into theory. At the end of the day, it's what 'works' for someone that decides that it's good or not.

                            What works for me is the 'feel' of a guitar amp, rather than a modeler running through a PA. From what you are saying, you have never played through a properly set up atomic before. I've had mine for years, and I've been using it because I believe it is the best for what I'm using it for. It does indeed FEEL like a guitar amp. If you've played through my setup, you would know exactly what I was talking about... Nothing is lost that a real amp should have... Theory will always be defeated by actual experience...
                            Guitars:
                            - ESP Original Forest GT
                            - Edwards E-LP-98LTS
                            - LTD M-1000
                            - Seagull S6

                            Amp:
                            - Mesa/Boogie Mark IV

                            Effects:
                            - Maxon OD808
                            - MXR Smart gate
                            - MXR Carbon copy
                            - TC Electronic Hall of Fame
                            - TC Electronic Polytune

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              atomic is specifically made for modellers, yes. but it's not as good as real legit PA. but it's better than other guitar setups for the purpose of running modellers through.

                              atomic has its place. mainly it's cheaper than a nice PA. but it's not as good as PA. for the reasons that i've mentioned before.

                              if you don't want to buy PA gear, then go for these tech21 and atomic products. they are cheaper than a PA gear and maybe you can't tell the difference. just saying PA gears are the best, in the sense that no other solution mentioned has the capability to reproduce full range frequencies (as in nothing in the 17khz for example) and nothing else guaranteeds flat frequency response throughout the full range frequencies (very important) and nothing else has the 'clean headroom' (like 300+ watts per speaker).

                              as for my qualifications, i'd rather not broadcast them in the open. but if you PM me, i can give details with referrals. perhaps you will find it satisfactory.


                              You really should NOT be worried about 17khz for guitar. If for some reason there was a lot of sound up there it would sound ****************. Anything above about 6khz should only be present at a very low level.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Atomic amps were designed to make the original Pod and the Pod2.0 sound warmer, which they do. Not all modellers need warming up.

                                I've had Roland/Boss modellers and while they capture the character of the amps they model pretty well, they lag well behind the PodXT and especially Tonelabs for dynamics and warmth.

                                12" guitar speakers have a clean response up to around 5kHz. But when pushed hard, they themselves start to distort, and produce their own distortion harmonics well above 5kHz. Therefore to cleanly reproduce the modelled sound of a 12" speaker being pushed hard, you need speakers with a frequency response well in excess of 5kHz, i. e. with tweaters.

                                The OP was asking specifically about amplifying a Tonelab. The Tonelabs are unique in that they use a configurable valve power amp to model valve power amp behaviour. So if you haven't tried amplifying a Tonelab yourself...
                                Nik
                                Godin LGXT; G707 with internal GK2.

                                Weeping Demon; M13;
                                AX100 MkII; 9001; Formula; HOG;
                                Repeater; Vortex.

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