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Best power amp for use with amp modeler?

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  • #31
    I'll check out the Mosvalve. I've also found the Tech 21 power engine interesting but so far no one has mentioned this as a viable option. Maybe because it's only 60watts and you'd need a wall of them to make a dent. Hey Dimmypage. Do you play out in Portland? I work in Beaverton and ocasionally get out to hear live acts. Thought it would be cool to hear your set up live.



    The tech 21 is good stuff

    Ha, I live in Beaverton and havent played in a band for 6 yrs because I moved to DC for 4 yrs. My band played at Feelgoods,the Underdround and Eddie Rickenbachers at the Hillsboro airport. I am thinking of getting back out there but I kinda got burnt out on finding good/nice singers.
    BTW,The other guitar player in the band used a Soldano HR 50 and I never had any problems keeping up in volume.
    R I P Leopardstar





    Originally Posted by jjpistols
    yeah it's funny to watch internet idiots talk **************** knowing they've never accomplished a ****************in thing musically

    Comment


    • #32
      The tech 21 is good stuff

      Ha, I live in Beaverton and havent played in a band for 6 yrs because I moved to DC for 4 yrs. My band played at Feelgoods,the Underdround and Eddie Rickenbachers at the Hillsboro airport. I am thinking of getting back out there but I kinda got burnt out on finding good/nice singers.
      BTW,The other guitar player in the band used a Soldano HR 50 and I never had any problems keeping up in volume.


      I may have to take a Tech 21 home from GC for a 30 day trial...I usually end up keeping the stuff anyway! Dr. Feelgoods is one of my fav. watering holes. If you find a good singer and get going again, PM me. I'll check it out. My son just found a singer for his "battle of the bands" HS thing and I asked if he was anygood. My son says, "Doesn't matter. The worse they are the louder I play!" Ha. The apple does not fall far from the tree!!

      Comment


      • #33
        I may have to take a Tech 21 home from GC for a 30 day trial...I usually end up keeping the stuff anyway! Dr. Feelgoods is one of my fav. watering holes. If you find a good singer and get going again, PM me. I'll check it out. My son just found a singer for his "battle of the bands" HS thing and I asked if he was anygood. My son says, "Doesn't matter. The worse they are the louder I play!" Ha. The apple does not fall far from the tree!!


        That was the policy with my last band

        If you get a chance Check out Billy Hagen hes usually playing somewhere around. Great player, plays a mean slide with a full drink glass.I played about 50 gigs with him and he always stold the show with that
        R I P Leopardstar





        Originally Posted by jjpistols
        yeah it's funny to watch internet idiots talk **************** knowing they've never accomplished a ****************in thing musically

        Comment


        • #34
          I use an Atomic 212 and it is the best thing you can get for a modeller.


          Depends on the modeller.

          We are talkiing Vox Tonelab here, which has all the valve warmth it needs, thanks very much.
          Nik
          Godin LGXT; G707 with internal GK2.

          Weeping Demon; M13;
          AX100 MkII; 9001; Formula; HOG;
          Repeater; Vortex.

          Comment


          • #35
            Full range isn't a good thing for guitar, necessarily. The only times I've heard an electric guitar through tweeters or horns (not counting PA reinforcement), it sounded like dog****************. YMMV.

            I'm not a fan of modelers at all, really, but that is exactly what the Atomic is specifically designed for. I'm sure they wouldn't have forgotten to put a tweeter in, if it was necessary to reproduce the modeler's sounds. Why would you want to hear a model of a plexi, for example, through tweeters, or a full range cab, though? It's not as though the orignal amps (or ANY guitar amps, for that matter) are "full range".


            Depends on whether they really know what they are doing, or whether they just want to sell you something with valves in it.

            A Plexi full bore produces a lot of speaker break up, which produces harmonics that a 12" speaker cannot normally reproduce. So to model it correctly, you need to model harmonics that a 12" speaker cannot normally reproduce.
            Nik
            Godin LGXT; G707 with internal GK2.

            Weeping Demon; M13;
            AX100 MkII; 9001; Formula; HOG;
            Repeater; Vortex.

            Comment


            • #36
              to be brief and to simplify,

              fundamental frequencies of guitar is from 80hz to 1300hz. this is not full range. but way above these frequencies is the higher harmonics of the fundamental frequencies. these basically define 'tone' in part.

              think traditional model

              guitar -> amp -> mic -> PA

              mic hears what we hear. and by the time it reaches our ears, the harmonics of the guitar have went through the amp and the amp adds its own harmonics and cab does different things to each frequencies. guitar cabs are capable of making high frequency noises. just in not faithful fashion.

              basically modeller tries to replace 'amp -> mic' and it is ideal to pass it off to PA. if you're running it to atomic, it looks like

              guitar -> modeller -> atomic

              equals

              guitar -> 'amp -> mic' -> atomic.

              just imagine that you hooked up to your amp to, say, blackface twin or whatever you're modelling. then mic'ed it up. then instead of sending it to a mixer like you usually would after you mic up an amp, you sent it to atomic instead.

              this can sound good. you just won't be hearing what the guys who made the modeller wanted you to hear. close but not as close as PA will get you. atomic is closer to PA than a regular guitar rig. the whole point of atomic is to make something resembling a PA as closely as possible in a guitar cab form factor. truth.


              You were doing fine up to that last point. The Atomic amps have a valve power amp and no tweeter, and so are not at all close to a clean, full range PA system.

              Tech21 Power Engine active cabs are much closer to a PA in a guitar cabinet.
              Nik
              Godin LGXT; G707 with internal GK2.

              Weeping Demon; M13;
              AX100 MkII; 9001; Formula; HOG;
              Repeater; Vortex.

              Comment


              • #37
                I tend to agree about using PA speakers for full range sound. You could always look at turning the cab modeling off of your custom patches if running live through a guitar cab though. It will mean that you might have to create new patch settings to find "your tone" just for this application.

                Another scenario to look at in the amp is to find a good tube power amp, preferably a stereo one if you want to fully take advantage of certain effects (chorus, etc) within the modeling. This will also mean that you need a stereo speaker set-up to get the most out of it or you'll have to bridge the power amp defeating the purpose. I've found that using a tube power amp doesn't color the sound much at all but still gives the "tube presence" that guitarists want and takes the generic sterility out of the modeling sound. The only thing this set-up won't solve is offering a compact solution because you'll be hauling two-three separate pieces of equipment.

                Comment


                • #38
                  That was the policy with my last band

                  If you get a chance Check out Billy Hagen hes usually playing somewhere around. Great player, plays a mean slide with a full drink glass.I played about 50 gigs with him and he always stold the show with that


                  Will do. What's his style/genre?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Not to de-rail the thread, but what kind of Ibby is that on the right? Looks cool as hell. I'm not much into Ibanez guitars but I like that one!


                    Yeah, I love how that one looks. I'd trade my RS1000 for it.

                    Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius:

                    "When it comes to gear vs talent I'll be the first to admit that I sit in the Mayor's seat in Poserville."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Depends on whether they really know what they are doing, or whether they just want to sell you something with valves in it.

                      A Plexi full bore produces a lot of speaker break up, which produces harmonics that a 12" speaker cannot normally reproduce. So to model it correctly, you need to model harmonics that a 12" speaker cannot normally reproduce.


                      A plexi was just an arbitrary example.

                      That said, to say a plexi "produces a lot of speaker break up" is kind of problematic. It depends on the effeciency of the speaker. "Plexi" refers to the head, and doesn't imply anything about what speakers are being used, whatsoever.

                      Aside from that, who the hell would run a plexi head through a full range pa cabinet, as opposed to 12's? if you "model harmonics that a 12" speaker can't produce", then run them through a cabinet that CAN produce them, the results probably won't be pleasant. There's a reason people don't play their Superleads through SP-2's*.

                      *Another arbitrary example. I really don't give a **************** about SP-2 specs.
                      Pigpen said it was OK!







                      Originally Posted by mdog114


                      Boy, you should REALLY go back and slap you're teachers!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I
                        pump mine into the retrn line of my Peavey Ultra Plus to get the Power Tube Tone - it tends to be a bit low end heavy and I have to dial back the bass on all my model settings.
                        Finally learning to enjoy something besides metal......and it Hurts!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          A friend has a processor to a older Marshall Valvesate 8080 power amp and then to a old Marshall Cabinet. It sounds fantastic with his Ibanez Artist

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            A plexi was just an arbitrary example.

                            That said, to say a plexi "produces a lot of speaker break up" is kind of problematic. It depends on the effeciency of the speaker. "Plexi" refers to the head, and doesn't imply anything about what speakers are being used, whatsoever.

                            Aside from that, who the hell would run a plexi head through a full range pa cabinet, as opposed to 12's? if you "model harmonics that a 12" speaker can't produce", then run them through a cabinet that CAN produce them, the results probably won't be pleasant. There's a reason people don't play their Superleads through SP-2's*.

                            *Another arbitrary example. I really don't give a **************** about SP-2 specs.


                            you're completely misunderstanding. it's not even funny.

                            no one is saying anything but modellers should be run through full range.

                            this is what i'm saying:

                            guitar -> preamp -> power amp -> cab -> mic -> PA

                            equals

                            guitar -> modeller -> PA

                            also equals

                            guitar -> modeller with cab sim turned off -> power amp -> guitar cab -> mic -> PA

                            but does not equal

                            guitar -> modeller -> anything but full range (which is apparently what everyone else in this forum is doing.)


                            nobody brought up the picture 'guitar -> some chain without either cab simulation or an actual guitar cab -> PA' (except you) because that's not what people are interested in.

                            guitar cabs can produce these harmonics. but in a very particular way. modellers models these harmonics in ways that full range can reproduce them. modellers model these harmonics ways that guitar cabs CANNOT produce them. an exception to this is line 6 stuff that has a special setting for sending it through a guitar cab. (it has to go through some EQ. and it's still not ideal, as guitar cab is not very controlled or precise.)

                            this is just the way modellers were meant to be used. but guitarists are not sound techs and they keep using modellers in ways that they were not intended to be used. this is why i can't trust user reviews of modellers. "it sounds ****************ty" well no ****************. you're using it wrong.

                            if you don't get it, don't worry about it. just stay away from modellers, old timer. and let your sound guys worry about it if you're ever in the position.

                            Comment


                            • #44

                              if you don't get it, don't worry about it. just stay away from modellers, old timer. and let your sound guys worry about it if you're ever in the position.


                              Old timer. That's funny. Much more of that, and I'll take your skateboard away.

                              Fluffy marketing aside, a modeler, such as a pod, is a digital effects processor. The old ones had "cab simulation", too. I'm all for folks using modelers direct into the PA, though, long as it's somebody else's band.

                              What do I know, though? I'm just another one of those idiots who uses a tube amp to get a tube amp sound.
                              Pigpen said it was OK!







                              Originally Posted by mdog114


                              Boy, you should REALLY go back and slap you're teachers!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Old timer. That's funny. Much more of that, and I'll take your skateboard away.

                                Fluffy marketing aside, a modeler, such as a pod, is a digital effects processor. The old ones had "cab simulation", too. I'm all for folks using modelers direct into the PA, though, long as it's somebody else's band.

                                What do I know, though? I'm just another one of those idiots who uses a tube amp to get a tube amp sound.


                                if you're going 100% traditional, that's cool with me. not saying your tube amp stops working because modellers are here.

                                but what i'm wondering about is, how do you resolve the fact that the guys who made the modellers say "our products are meant to be used with full-range set up. if you are not, you are doing it wrong and you will get less than what you paid for" and you saying "running a modeller through full range is stupid. i will run mine through a tube power amp and a guitar cab."

                                i mean it's just how they MADE it. how they were programmed, how they were tested, how they were intended. for best possible operation. just read a manual, please. i know it's a thick manual and you don't use a modeller. that's fine. don't use a modeller and stick to other things. just don't pretend like you know what you're talking about when it comes to MODELLERS which you don't use and which you are clueless about.

                                i haven't said **************** about running your old tube preamp through a PA without a guitar cab. that's stupid. don't do it. we have no disagreements when there are no modellers in the picture. it's just that you are clueless about any set up involving a modeller.

                                i'm not going to continue feeding a troll. btw i am a beginner guitar player but i happen to be a student of electrical engineering and a qualified sound guy. but you don't have to take it on my authority. i strongly suggest you read the manual or talk to the manufacturer for suggested usage. just ask them which set up will be better. modeller through tube amp and 4x12 or a modeller through a pair of mackie srm450.

                                i'm not suggesting that Electric Catfish do so. because he doesn't use a modeller so he doesn't need to know how to use one. and that's perfectly okay. probably he gets great sounds out of real tube amps, no doubt. but anyone else who is actually considering using a modeller should learn what the correct way to use it is.

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