Members RedJamaX Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 How much does the wood actually matter? ... I have read over and over that different wood can make a bigger difference than a different pickup. Or that the same pickup can sound "drastically" different from one guitar to the next simply because of the wood... I have read article after article and message board after message board about this phenomena... However, I have yet to find a single video or sound clip that lays out that exact comparison. Which would not be difficult really (allowing for those who can afford such a test)... get a Gibson Les Paul Custom and an Epiphone Les Paul Custom... Gibson with a Mahogany body and Maple Top, Epiphone with a solid Ashe or alder body (silverburst was made like that)... Get the same pickups and set the amp the same and test away... but I have yet to see this proof... For this to be a valid theory, ALL OTHER FACTORS IN THE TEST MUST BE EQUAL... Guitar body shape, nut and bridge material, string make and model, pickup make and model, Amp make/modle and settings. These are the two videos I've seen...Concrete guitar and Collings maple top vs mahoganyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-kSt3vth2Y First, concrete guitar test. This one isn't even a good test simply based on the way the "engineer" mounted the friggin pickup. If he is actually using a Tele for the wooden guitar in the test (which we don't get to see), then the pickup poles will be set directly under the strings the way they are suppoed to be. How can we possibly tell how much of the tone difference was caused by the body of the guitar, vs the off-set pickup position... And we don't even get to see the wooden guitar, so there is no proof that it is a real direct comparison. Further more, while there is an obvious difference in tone, it is still not so "drastic" as to casue someboyd to take the pickup they bought back to the store because it sounded so incredibly differnet (even with the mounting so far off). The Collings test video is the closest thing I've seen to give a real comparison of how wood can change the tone... however, I don't hear the "drastic" difference so many people claim to notice. I find several points from one sample to the next in that video and go back and forth to listen to the very same notes being played in each test. While there are some very, VERY subtle differences in the sound, they are no where near the "drastic" change that so many claim. And who is to say that on the second take, the player didn't simply pluck the string just a tiny bit harder or softer??? So I suppose this leads me to the final section of my quest for enlightenment... Does this highlight a fundamental problem with our school system in that people have no idea how to apply the scientific method because they don;t seem to understand that all variables except the wood type must be equal to proove this theory??? (which has yet to be done... And if you have seen video/audio clip proof of this, don't come back with "I've seen it"... please provide the links) Or Does this highlight a fundemental problem with our school system because so many people have no idea what the word "drastic" actually means??? or am I simply beating a dead horse here? My personal thoughts... Science says that Pickups, Amps, Strings and Scale Length make a far more significant difference in tone than wood type ever will. And with decent electronics, you will easily be able to overcome any sublte negative nuances that may (or may not) be caused by the wood that the guitar is made of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ashtray Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 Having owned hundreds of guitars (and played hundreds more), I've played guitars exactly the same with different wood. There's a difference. Sometimes subtle (alder vs poplar), some huge (maple vs mahogany). Fretboard wood has just as much effect. Amp seems to make the biggest difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RedJamaX Posted August 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 So in your experience, have you taken a pickup that you absolutely loved in one guitar, put it into another similar guitar with different wood only... and then you didn't like the way it sounded? To me, that would be the "drastic" difference that wood type can cause. Ever happen? I am really curious to find some audio samples that can excentuate the differences... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GAS Man Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 I really don't even understand the point of these types of threads here on HCEG. This forum is for guitar aficionado's. If one doesn't even want to understand the influence of the wood, then why even come here? It's not like your post implies you want to learn, it just comes across like you want to argue the point. And yes, I have different guitars made of different woods with the same electronics and guess what, they do sound very noticeably different. :deadhorse: but good for you, you'll be happy forever with $100 guitars with top grade pickups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RedJamaX Posted August 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 I do not mean to come off in that manner. I understand the physics of how this effect can seemingly be possible, but I have yet to find a single shred of evidence that would suggest I might waste my money on a pickup because I thought it would sound one way and turned out to be completely different. And that's just it, I DO want to fully understand the influence... but not just on paper... and since I don't have thousands of dollars to swap and test and swap and test different pickups and guitars... I'm hoping somebody might actually be able to provide a source that provides difinative results of this phenomena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twisty571 Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 I really don't even understand the point of these types of threads here on HCEG. This forum is for guitar aficionado's. If one doesn't even want to understand the influence of the wood, then why even come here? It's not like your post implies you want to learn, it's just comes across like you want to argue the point. And yes, I have different guitars made of different woods with the same electronics and guess what, they do sound very noticeably different. And I suppose you also think the whole "Stradivarius thing" was just hype too, or that its nuances can't be picked up and amplified :deadhorse: But it's good for you. It means you can always be happy with a $100 guitar with top shelf pickups. Would that difference be in the Nighthawk and SG with BB 1 & 2;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GAS Man Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 Simply put, a transducer converts mechanical energy to electrical energy. Therefore if it affects the mechanics (vibrations) it will affect the output of the transducer. But if I come across as picking on you, sorry, believe me, your school of thought is not alone here. It just strikes me as heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GAS Man Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 Would that difference be in the Nighthawk and SG with BB 1 & 2;) Yeah, luscious in my '59 RI, phail in a poplar maple top slab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twisty571 Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yeah, luscious in my '59 RI, phail in a poplar maple top slab. I really wanted to like that guitar but I think it was for the best,been practicing all day on my new SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GAS Man Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 I really wanted to like that guitar but I think it was for the best,been practicing all day on my new SG Me too. I'm just not as smart as you and I've hung onto mine. Must be the "purdy factor" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The REAL Rocker Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 I do not mean to come off in that manner. I understand the physics of how this effect can seemingly be possible, but I have yet to find a single shred of evidence that would suggest I might waste my money on a pickup because I thought it would sound one way and turned out to be completely different. And that's just it, I DO want to fully understand the influence... but not just on paper... and since I don't have thousands of dollars to swap and test and swap and test different pickups and guitars... I'm hoping somebody might actually be able to provide a source that provides difinative results of this phenomena.--------------------I understand where you are coming from, but even If there was a resource that would give you proof of the specs you desire, you still have to hear them with your own ears, and since all of us hear differently, the resource may not even be helpful for you. You need to build your own ear for what you want to hear in your guitars, and then, learn to transfer that to your guitar buying. I would advise you to go to the local Sam Ash or Guitar Center(They will let you sit and play and build knowledge, but don't do this with a Mom and Pop shop, they may not want you hanging round If there isn't cash flowing from you), and spend time there playing everything you can. This will allow you to decide what sounds "right" to your ears. It will also allow you to feel many tonewoods/fretboards/neck combos with your own hands, to give yourself familarity with which woods "feel" right for you. This is not a race, so take your time and explore, and you'll discover for yourself what is "right" for your sound and tone................The REAL Rocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joined4thelaney Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 40,000 pages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kuz929 Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 Ok. I'm gonna try to explain this nice and simple so we can end this ( ) Every guitar is different. Period. Every single guitar plays differently and sounds differently than the next. Even two guitars that rolled off the line with consecutive serial numbers. Something will be different. That just extends to different tonewoods... some maple will be brighter than others, some mahogany will be darker than others. Some mahogany may seem brighter than alder etc etc etc Step 1 :try guitars out. Step 2: pick one you like. Step 3. Step 4. rock the f*ck out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GAS Man Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 I'll play a little bit longer (hook in mouth) Here's two of my guitars - still have them both (sorry for the crappy old picture) Two American Deluxe Stratocasters. Both with SCN pickups, both with S-1 Switching. The Bad Boy Blue is ash with an ebony fretboard. The other is alder with maple fretboard. Now I can't tell you exactly how much the fretboard material imparts the brightness (ebony is considered to be brighter than maple) and my assumption is that most of the tonal difference comes from the heavier/denser ash body versus the more resonant alder body. But I can tell you the tone difference is VERY noticeable. The ash/ebony Deluxe strat is much brighter with a much more piercing tone. When I play it, I prefer to engage the S-1 switch for a series (more humbucker-ish) setting to thicken its tone. With the alder/maple Deluxe Strat, I'm much more comfortable with its tone with the S-1 switch not engaged for the thinner parallel tones because its wood still gives that tone resonance and depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpnyc Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 There is a student at LaTrobe University conducting research that the differences between tone woods are almost nonexistent. People hear what they want to hear. People pay thousands of dollars for audiophile grade stereo equipment that contains the same parts as cheap models sold at K-mart because knowing they paid more money convinces them it sounds better. Likewise, in blind tastings cheap wines are often considered to taste as good as or better than expensive wines, but show people the price tags and the expensive stuff tastes better. But there are plenty of great guitar solos that were recorded by broke anonymous session musicians playing junk guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GAS Man Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 There is a student at LaTrobe University conducting research that the differences between tone woods are almost nonexistent. People hear what they want to hear. People pay thousands of dollars for audiophile grade stereo equipment that contains the same parts as cheap models sold at K-mart because knowing they paid more money convinces them it sounds better. Likewise, in blind tastings cheap wines are often considered to taste as good as or better than expensive wines, but show people the price tags and the expensive stuff tastes better. But there are plenty of great guitar solos that were recorded by broke anonymous session musicians playing junk guitars. You see, that's part of the thinking that can cause why these threads go off mark. Who said that the cost has to be part of the factor? I've got a Godin Session made of basswood that I paid $310 for (on sale) that IMO has significantly better tone than that ash American Deluxe I paid $1,000 for (on sale). I don't doubt that some folks have Agiles that can sound better than some other folks' Gibsons. Wood is consistently inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tidal Rhythm Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 How much does the wood actually matter? ... I have read over and over that different wood can make a bigger difference than a different pickup. Or that the same pickup can sound "drastically" different from one guitar to the next simply because of the wood.... Really?? What are your sources for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpnyc Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 You see, that's part of the thinking that can cause why these threads go off mark. Who said that the cost has to be part of the factor? I was just using the effect of prices on perception as an example, not trying to change the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members benzem Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 ... but I have yet to see this proof... It's in the pudding! MMMMMMMMM........puddin':love: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wagdog Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 EVERYTHING matters. How much is what's debatable. I like Kuz's answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GAS Man Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 I was just using the effect of prices on perception as an example, not trying to change the subject. Yeah, I don't think I quite meant what you inferred either. I was just trying to say that some of the impetus from these arguments against "tone-wood" (not necessarily from you) seem to partly stem from the notion that cork sniffers with deep pockets push the tone wood theory; and that's not necessarily the point of the tone-wood debate. I mean, I'd love to try out one of the Vintage Vibe pine Squiers that folks have been raving about. I think I'd enjoy it too. But I have also suffered guitars (mostly in the mid price range) that no matter what I've done with p'up swaps, I just sometimes can't make a silk purse out of that sow's ear. Some gits are just DOA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StevenJM Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 I have read article after article and message board after message board about this phenomena... seems like a perfectly good reason to start ANOTHER. :deadhorse: boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrockbridge Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 In part of this video, you'll hear these two different LP's miked acoustically in the room (not through their pickups or an amp). You can hear how the real 1959 sounds almost hollow. Later, when he plays the guitars through the pickups and amps, that same hollow quality comes through the real 1959. Perhaps, not definitive proof of anything but it's one of my favorite examples of the acoustic properties of a solid body electric guitar. Those acoustic properties can come through the pickups and amp with the right settings. [video=youtube;tgbgUMqUMns] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members photon9 Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 Amp seems to make the biggest difference. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 Here's the proof... The Teuffel Birdfish guitar. those cylindrical different colored bars you see are the "tone wood". You get a couple different options when you buy the guitar. Maple and alder I think? Could be even more than that. Not sure. Regardless....they are interchangeable. Want Maple? Take off the Alder and put on the Maple. Totally controlled experiment as the ONLY thing you are altering is the resonant wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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