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  • Tonewoods video! Definitive.

    Originally Posted by GW348


    I just let the pee flow. The places I play, no one notices or have peed themselves too.




    RIP Wayne Murray

    **************** YOU CANCER!!

  • #2
    Good video. Thanks for posting!
    Guitars: 3 Fender Strats, Fender Jazzmaster, Squier Bullet, 2 Gibson Les Pauls, Gibson ES-339, Gibson Les Paul Jr. Special, Epiphone Les Paul, Epiphone Dot, Epiphone SG, PRS SE Custom 24, Ibanez AS73, Hamer Duotone, Larrivee D-03R, Takamine EG5013S, 1951 Epiphone Devon, Ibanez SR305 (bass)Pedal Chain: BBE Green Screamer -> MXR Distortion III -> Boss CE-5 -> EH Stereo Pulsar -> Boss DD-20 -> BBE Boosta GrandeAmps: Vox AC4, AC15, AC30, Pathfinder 10, DA5SoundCloud

    Comment


    • pweller
      pweller commented
      Editing a comment

      Thanks for posting, that was a pretty good test.  That kitchen countertop wood is about the cheapest junk you can get - it's below MDF in quality.  I was suprised that it weighed more than the Squier body, though.  He claimed it was 'less dense', though that can't be true because it weighed more (I'm assuming it was the exact same size).

      The only minor change I would have liked to see would have been for him to pick one string at a time, so we could see if there was any specific frequency problems, and maybe put a capo at the 12th fret and do the same.  The overall frequency response was pretty clear in the full strums, but that was only with open strings.

      Changing between pickups probably isn't really necessary - I don't think he needed to do that.

      The only glaring problem is that you can't get chicks with a countertop guitar - it just isn't shiny enough.


  • #3

    Definitive?  Hmm. No.

    Sorry but neither this nor the Teuffel Birdfish video (which attempts to proves the opposite) are anything close to proof.

    As I said before, I'm skeptical that tonewood really has any significant role in the tone of an electric guitar but am open to persuasion by good evidence in either direction. I've still yet to see any.

    Again, as I said before,  those that claim they can hear the difference between different woods are not basing that assertion on anything close to emprical evidence. It's way too easy to deceive ourselves over this kind of stuff.

    http://www.surrealisticpenguin.com

    Comment


    • wankdeplank
      wankdeplank commented
      Editing a comment

      Surrealistic wrote:

      Definitive?  Hmm. No.

      Sorry but neither this nor the Teuffel Birdfish video (which attempts to proves the opposite) are anything close to proof.

      As I said before, I'm skeptical that tonewood really has any significant role in the tone of an electric guitar but am open to persuasion by good evidence in either direction. I've still yet to see any.

      Again, as I said before,  those that claim they can hear the difference between different woods are not basing that assertion on anything close to emprical evidence. It's way too easy to deceive ourselves over this kind of stuff.


      Thank you, and I commend your skeptic's disposition.  This is really weak sauce.  First of all the two guitars don't sound remotely the same (based on one strum in a forty minute docudrama snooze fest).  I mean isn't that the point of the entire exercize?  Instead I suppose I'm supposed to base my conclusions on the wave-form representation of an oscilloscope.  The countertop guitar makes the same graph as a $100 dollar Squier body - big surprise there. 

      And regarding Scott Grove, who seems to be the new guru of the ever-growing anti-tonewood contingent, the man is a walking contradiction.  (Don't believe me, check the youtube discussions below the OP's video and the stone guitar video.)  First he says wood has no effect on tone once you plug in and later he infers (in other videos) that good wood is a big part of the difference between a quality guitar and one that's not so good.  And I definitely agree with him when he scoffs at someone who spends big money to mod what he considers a crappy guitar "three thousand dollars into a guitar they can sell for $80 on ebay".  (And why would you want to sell it if you were successful in your transformation?)

      15:45 "Electra, made out of the highest quality woods you can imagine"....


    • pweller
      pweller commented
      Editing a comment

      Surrealistic wrote:

      Definitive?  Hmm. No.

      Sorry but neither this nor the Teuffel Birdfish video (which attempts to proves the opposite) are anything close to proof.

      As I said before, I'm skeptical that tonewood really has any significant role in the tone of an electric guitar but am open to persuasion by good evidence in either direction. I've still yet to see any.

      Again, as I said before,  those that claim they can hear the difference between different woods are not basing that assertion on anything close to emprical evidence. It's way too easy to deceive ourselves over this kind of stuff.


       

      I would like to know what, specifically, would constitute a 'definitive' test for you.  Just lay it out there, and list exactly what conditions and testing procedures would be definitive for you.  How many guitars, how to test them, etc.  

      For me, the test was reasonably well done.  I am not going to quibble over controlling ambient temperature and humidity, or other such things.  In keeping with a reasonable test (that nobody is getting paid to do), I think the guy did a pretty good job.


    • BydoEmpire
      BydoEmpire commented
      Editing a comment

      Surrealistic wrote:

      As I said before, I'm skeptical that tonewood really has any significant role in the tone of an electric guitar but am open to persuasion by good evidence in either direction. I've still yet to see any.


      So what constitutes "significant?"  It's not nearly as big as the difference between a clean Fender Twin and a dimed Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier, but that doesn't mean it's not a factor.  I believe I can hear the difference between a mahogany strat and an alder strat, but whether or not the difference is significant is strictly up to me as a player.  I don't know if I'll ever have "evidence," but until then I'll trust my ears.  Fortunately, if I'm wrong the world won't end and nobody will die.


  • #4

    Why does Fender build Tele's in alder or ash?

    Why does Taylor build acoustic's in mahogany or rosewood?

    Disclaimer: My threads and posts are created to allow forum members to discuss interesting subject matter.

    I reserve the right to change my decisions at anytime.

    Comment


    • DaleH
      DaleH commented
      Editing a comment

      Visconti wrote:

      Why does Fender build Tele's in alder or ash?

      Why does Taylor build acoustic's in mahogany or rosewood?


      1 Leo wanted to source a cheap wood supply. Alder ash were local therefore cheap. Common construction wood.

       

       


    • Surrealistic
      Surrealistic commented
      Editing a comment

      Visconti wrote:

      Why does Fender build Tele's in alder or ash?

      Why does Taylor build acoustic's in mahogany or rosewood?


      To the first question the answer is:  Probably lots of reasons, but none of them based on any empirical evidence in favour of their tone.

      Are you still unable to accept that acoustics (there's no apostrophe there) have very little in common with electrics when it comes to the way the sound is produced?  No one is doubting that wood has an effect in an acoustic guitar.


  • #5

    Long, tedious, boring, and useless.  He us using a crude graph showing decibels.... loudness... that would be like using a light meter from an antique camera to measure subtle differences in color.  The human hear is far more sensitive than what he is using. 

     

    Please visit my website www.treeguitarworks.com

    Comment


    • PurpleTrails
      PurpleTrails commented
      Editing a comment

      stormin1155 wrote:

      Long, tedious, boring, and useless.  He us using a crude graph showing decibels.... loudness... that would be like using a light meter from an antique camera to measure subtle differences in color.  The human hear is far more sensitive than what he is using. 

       


      This.  Human hearing is incredibly good at discerning very minute changes in frequency and amplitude, especially in the midrange frequencies where guitar generates most of its sound.

      It's like when they first came out with the CD player, and they were advertised as "perfect sound forever," but people with acute listening skills thought they didn't sound as good as a good phono setup, and nowhere near as good as a master tape.  It took the development of more accurate test gear and complex methodologies to figure out why the sound wasn't as good.  I don't see people doing the same thing with tone woods, as there isn't a great reason to invest a lot of time and money in doing so.

      Somebody commented earlier on playing a single note instead of a crude strum.  With a more accurate measurement tool you could probably get a handle on both the frequency and the decay spectrum, and maybe then begin to get an answer.  Of course, you're probably bound by the accuracy of whatever mic you are using, which may very well have more measurement error than makes it possible to do a really accurate comparison.


    • mistersully
      mistersully commented
      Editing a comment

      stormin1155 wrote:

      Long, tedious, boring, and useless. 



      yep


  • #6

    I think the test would've made more sense with "recognized tonewoods" - bodies of mahogany, alder etc - instead of two bodies of what are essentially cheap mystery wood (the tester "thinks" the squier body is alder).    

     

    Comment


    • #7
      Visconti Valued Contributor
      Dec 18
      Chad wrote:
      Visconti wrote:
      DaleH wrote:
      Visconti wrote:
      Why does Fender build Tele's in alder or ash?
      Why does Taylor build acoustic's in mahogany or rosewood?
      1 Leo wanted to source a cheap wood supply. Alder ash were local therefore cheap. Common construction wood.


      Wrong. In the '50's Fender used ash for their Tele's and in the '60's used alder and ash.

      Have you ever played the two back to back? The ash Tele will always be brighter.
      What exactly are you saying he was wrong about? He stated that they sourced ash and alder because they were local and inexpensive. Also, an ash Tele won't always be brighter. A bright specimen of alder could easily sound brighter than a dark specimen of ash. No two pieces of wood are identical. There are no absolutes.
      Fender makes $1,000 guitars out of ash and alder and they make $4,000 guitars out of ash and alder. Why?
      There are tone definite characteristic between all ash when compared to alder. You're never gonna find an alder body that sounds like ash.
      I don't see what cheap has to do with it.
      You can have DeTemple or D'Pergo build you a T-style or S-style out of ash or alder and the guitar will cost you $10 grand.
      Add Comment
      Kudo
      True enough.
      Doesn't change the fact that Leo used it because it was cheap.
      We're not in Kansas anymore.

      Comment


      • #8
        We will never agree here at HCEG.

        I will forever hold to the opinion/belief that the wood is a factor, just not a very big one.
        Guitars: 3 Fender Strats, Fender Jazzmaster, Squier Bullet, 2 Gibson Les Pauls, Gibson ES-339, Gibson Les Paul Jr. Special, Epiphone Les Paul, Epiphone Dot, Epiphone SG, PRS SE Custom 24, Ibanez AS73, Hamer Duotone, Larrivee D-03R, Takamine EG5013S, 1951 Epiphone Devon, Ibanez SR305 (bass)Pedal Chain: BBE Green Screamer -> MXR Distortion III -> Boss CE-5 -> EH Stereo Pulsar -> Boss DD-20 -> BBE Boosta GrandeAmps: Vox AC4, AC15, AC30, Pathfinder 10, DA5SoundCloud

        Comment


        • #9

          The wood resonates and has a lot to do with the core sound of the guitar. Hell your cable will change the way your guitar sounds and so will old tubes. If a speaker is broke in or not will change the sound. The wood in a drum will sound different from another wood. The wood is a major part of a guitar and if you change it it will change the sound. If you don't believe me go to some small builders where they will allow to tour their shop and they will tell you what I am saying. I have also taken the Taylor Guitars tour a few times and they demonstrated how woods sound different.

          Disclaimer: My threads and posts are created to allow forum members to discuss interesting subject matter.

          I reserve the right to change my decisions at anytime.

          Comment


          • knotty
            knotty commented
            Editing a comment

            Visconti wrote:

            The wood resonates and has a lot to do with the core sound of the guitar. Hell your cable will change the way your guitar sounds and so will old tubes. If a speaker is broke in or not will change the sound. The wood in a drum will sound different from another wood. The wood is a major part of a guitar and if you change it it will change the sound. If you don't believe me go to some small builders where they will allow to tour their shop and they will tell you what I am saying. I have also taken the Taylor Guitars tour a few times and they demonstrated how woods sound different.


            You have the brain of a rocking horse. (Ash probably)


        • #10
          It's interesting, we never discuss...

          ...if electrics sound different than acoustics
          ...if being in tune matters
          ...if flatwounds sound different than nickel/steel
          ...if playing clean is different than using a fuzz pedal

          And the reason is because the difference between all those pairings is obvious. The tonewood argument needs controlled scientific experiements, special equipment to analyze the sound waves, and we still argue about it, because no one can actually prove whether it makes a difference or not. However, if it really made a noticeable difference, we wouldn't have this argument.
          Guitars: 3 Fender Strats, Fender Jazzmaster, Squier Bullet, 2 Gibson Les Pauls, Gibson ES-339, Gibson Les Paul Jr. Special, Epiphone Les Paul, Epiphone Dot, Epiphone SG, PRS SE Custom 24, Ibanez AS73, Hamer Duotone, Larrivee D-03R, Takamine EG5013S, 1951 Epiphone Devon, Ibanez SR305 (bass)Pedal Chain: BBE Green Screamer -> MXR Distortion III -> Boss CE-5 -> EH Stereo Pulsar -> Boss DD-20 -> BBE Boosta GrandeAmps: Vox AC4, AC15, AC30, Pathfinder 10, DA5SoundCloud

          Comment


          • #11

            benzem wrote:


            Well that's 40 minutes I will never get back.

            He makes guitars and never heard of Duncan designed? Not sure what it means? This bit goes on this bit. Tuning it to test he says "near enough"! Strumming, "oops I missed a string".

            Comedy gold. 

            I hope some of you guys never get called on for jury duty. People on both sides of the tonewood argument have a strange idea of evidence and what constitutes proof.

            Don't pick a fight with an old man,
            If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.


            '' Who, me Officer?''

            Comment


            • Stringbender11
              Stringbender11 commented
              Editing a comment

              People's beliefs about what affects tone extends well beyond the wood used in the bodys and necks when talking about electric guitars. Fret material, nut material, caps, bridge saddle material, etc, etc are all considered big tone affecters.

              Its amazing to me that some people waste so much time on something that has an incredibly minimal effect on how you will sound as a player. It all really just comes down to how well you play. Having a guitar made out of what you consider the best tone materials, played through the finest amp, will only sound as good or bad as the player.


          • #12
            kayd_mon Trusted Contributor
            92 AM
            We will never agree here at HCEG.

            I will forever hold to the opinion/belief that the wood is a factor, just not a very big one.
            Add Comment
            Kudo 0

            Don't be trying to get all reasonable and $hit now.
            We're not in Kansas anymore.

            Comment


            • #13
              Lmao!
              Guitars: 3 Fender Strats, Fender Jazzmaster, Squier Bullet, 2 Gibson Les Pauls, Gibson ES-339, Gibson Les Paul Jr. Special, Epiphone Les Paul, Epiphone Dot, Epiphone SG, PRS SE Custom 24, Ibanez AS73, Hamer Duotone, Larrivee D-03R, Takamine EG5013S, 1951 Epiphone Devon, Ibanez SR305 (bass)Pedal Chain: BBE Green Screamer -> MXR Distortion III -> Boss CE-5 -> EH Stereo Pulsar -> Boss DD-20 -> BBE Boosta GrandeAmps: Vox AC4, AC15, AC30, Pathfinder 10, DA5SoundCloud

              Comment


              • #14
                How many custom guitars have you HAD built?

                Lmao, this guy! Such funny trolling! He places an order, and that makes him an expert! And to prove his point about tonewood, he ssays that Suhr is important for having 1) modded amps and 2) wound pickups, two factors 50x more influential than tonewood. Such trolling! Such comedy! Eye heart HCEG.
                Guitars: 3 Fender Strats, Fender Jazzmaster, Squier Bullet, 2 Gibson Les Pauls, Gibson ES-339, Gibson Les Paul Jr. Special, Epiphone Les Paul, Epiphone Dot, Epiphone SG, PRS SE Custom 24, Ibanez AS73, Hamer Duotone, Larrivee D-03R, Takamine EG5013S, 1951 Epiphone Devon, Ibanez SR305 (bass)Pedal Chain: BBE Green Screamer -> MXR Distortion III -> Boss CE-5 -> EH Stereo Pulsar -> Boss DD-20 -> BBE Boosta GrandeAmps: Vox AC4, AC15, AC30, Pathfinder 10, DA5SoundCloud

                Comment


                • Visconti
                  Visconti commented
                  Editing a comment

                  kayd\_mon wrote:
                  How many custom guitars have you HAD built?

                  Lmao, this guy! Such funny trolling! He places an order, and that makes him an expert! And to prove his point about tonewood, he ssays that Suhr is important for having 1) modded amps and 2) wound pickups, two factors 50x more influential than tonewood. Such trolling! Such comedy! Eye heart HCEG.

                  Dude you come across like an ameteur. Aren't you a professional musician?

                  Remember John Surk also worked at Custom Audio Electronics. You know who CAE are?

                  Have you ever played a Suhr? Guthrie Govan had a signature guitar. I knew Guthrie back when he played his tobacco PRS and a Cornford.

                  gg.jpg

                  Attached Files

              • #15
                Such funny trolling! Your responses aren't even related to others' previous posts.

                I'll reiterate an older post - the fact that we have to debate whether or not wood is a major factor on tone proves that it isn't one. If it was such a big deal, then everyone - guitarist or otherwise - would be able to tell the difference. They can't, so it isn't. Very simple. I've said a few times that I think it is a factor, it's just a small one.

                Professional? Well, people regularly pay me to sing and play for them, so I guess I am a pro.

                I am still laughing that your "proof" for Suhr references his experience with amps and pickups, not "tonewood." I never knocked Suhr, I just showed appreciation for your hilarious joke! Because you must be joking. Your answer to the topic is akin to a kid in a spelling bee working out a math problem instead if spelling the word.
                Guitars: 3 Fender Strats, Fender Jazzmaster, Squier Bullet, 2 Gibson Les Pauls, Gibson ES-339, Gibson Les Paul Jr. Special, Epiphone Les Paul, Epiphone Dot, Epiphone SG, PRS SE Custom 24, Ibanez AS73, Hamer Duotone, Larrivee D-03R, Takamine EG5013S, 1951 Epiphone Devon, Ibanez SR305 (bass)Pedal Chain: BBE Green Screamer -> MXR Distortion III -> Boss CE-5 -> EH Stereo Pulsar -> Boss DD-20 -> BBE Boosta GrandeAmps: Vox AC4, AC15, AC30, Pathfinder 10, DA5SoundCloud

                Comment


                • badpenguin
                  badpenguin commented
                  Editing a comment

                  My issue with the snooze fest of the video is that he used a strat styled guitar, where the pickups really aren't attached to the body. I know, they're attached via the pickguard, but that just doesn't translate the vibrations of the wood well enough. If it were done using something akin to a Paul, or even a guitar that had the pickups directly mounted to the guitars body, I might be convinced. But for now, I still believe in tonewoods.



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