A phrygian - What chords for a vamp

[windmill]

Hello

 

If I wanted to play A Phrygian what chords would I use it over ?

 

Am = E as a two chord vamp ?

 

What about

Bm = E - Am ?

 

Just a simple answer for a simpleton please:)

[gennation]

You can take the "modal I-IV-V" approach (although, I think this approach can sound pretty drab):

 

A Phrygian:

 

Am, Dm, and Em7b5

 

You can create progressions that include those chords, just make sure you resolve to Am, and best in an Em7b5->Am movement.

 

But...

 

The better and more common Phrygian vamp, or progression, is the Im7-bIImaj7 progression...A Phrygian will cover this progression completely...

 

||: Am7 | Am7 | Bbmaj7 | Bbmaj7 :||

 

This should suit A Phrygian nicely. If you want you can even think of it a moving from A Phrygian to Bb Lydian. It'll still be the same set of notes but will help you nail the chords and changes between the chord tone more logically at first.

[gennation]

 

Hello If I wanted to play A Phrygian what chords would I use it over ? Am = E as a two chord vamp ? What about Bm = E - Am ? Just a simple answer for a simpleton please:)

 

 

Something else to mention based on your thoughts here...

 

Your Am-E vamp will make a great practice for A Aeolian and A Harmonic Minor. DEFINITELY experiment with that as is will show you the basis of a Minor Key.

 

Something like:

 

||: Am | Am | E7 | E7 :||

 

Play A Aeolian for Am and A Harmonic Minor for E7.

 

I know this isn't Phrygian but the chords you listed should not be ignored.

[JonR]

I agree with mike, except I'd reduce the time spent on Bb, just to confirm the tonal focus on A:

 

|Am7 - - - |Am7 - Bbmaj7 - |

 

or

 

|Am7 - - - |Am7 - - - |Am7 - - - |Bbmaj7 - - -|

 

or even (to keep it simple)

 

|Am - - Bb|

 

Or you could just use one chord - a jazz phrygian susb9 chord: Am7sus4b9, which is basically Em7b5/A, or Gm6/A:

 

-3-

-3-

-3-

-2-

-0-

-x-

 

Sounds dissonant (because of the Bb above the A), and has no C, but works well if you can get used to the sound.

 

here's some more voicings for it:

 

-6---10---12

-5---8----11

-7---9----12

-5---8----12

-0---0----0

-x---x----x

 

A jazz strategy is to use various voicings of notes from the mode, over the A bass, esp built in 4ths, like this:

 

-6---8---10---12---13-

-6---8---10---11---13-

-5---7---9----10---12-

-5---7---8----10---12-

-0---0---0----0----0--

-x---x---x----x----x--

 

(No need to name those chords; they would each have various possible names, most of them pretty clumsy to write out. And the idea is to keep them moving anyway. It's really only ONE chord, comprising any notes from the mode you like.)

[JonR]

 

Hello If I wanted to play A Phrygian what chords would I use it over ? Am = E as a two chord vamp ? What about Bm = E - Am ? Just a simple answer for a simpleton please:)

I'm not sure what the "=" and "-" refer to, but Am and E - as mike says - suggest either A harmonic minor or melodic minor, not phrygian.

 

Bm, E and Am would all by covered by A melodic minor only.

 

Here's the notes:

A melodic minor = A B C D E F# G#

Am = A C E

E = E G# B

Bm = B D F#

- you can see all those notes are included in the scale.

 

OTOH, A phrygian = A Bb C D E F G. So your other chord(s) (apart from Am) need to use those notes. Hence the following secondary chord options:

 

Bb = Bb-D-F

Gm = G-Bb-D

Em7b5 (or Gm6) = E-G-Bb-D

 

The Bb note is an important one to include, as it is the most distinctive note of A phrygian mode (the b2 of the scale).

[Virgman]

 

Hello If I wanted to play A Phrygian what chords would I use it over ? Am = E as a two chord vamp ? What about Bm = E - Am ? Just a simple answer for a simpleton please:)

 

 

If you are a simpleton you need to understand where the A-Phrygian comes from first.

 

"Am = E as a two chord vamp ?

 

What about

Bm = E - Am ?"

 

Nein! Nein!

 

Am is the Phrygian mode in key of F. F-Gm-Am-Bb-C7-Dm-Edim

 

So make up your progression with the key of F, starting with Am.

 

Like Am-Bb-C.

 

Am is the sub for Fmajor in key of F. The 1 and 3 chord are substitutes for each other.

 

So also try F-Bb-C7.

 

There is no law saying you can't accent the A over other chords either although this might take you out of key or and or mode. Experiment.

[JonR]

 

There is no law saying you can't accent the A over other chords either although this might take you out of key or and or mode. Experiment.

Absolutely. But "accenting A" - in melody or improvisation - in key of F is not enough to give a phrygian sound, if the chords are contradicting that.

It will also not "take you out of key or mode" - only a chord sequence can do that.

You can move around between keys or modes if playing totally solo, by how you phrase, and which notes you stress or finish phrases on. But once you have a chord sequence, then that will dictate the effective key or mode, by the root of whatever chord seems to dominate.

In a random set of chords from a major scale, that's likely to point to the major key as "home", because Ionian mode is the strongest. That's why we need to be highly selective with chords when trying to indicate (play in) one of the other modes.

[Virgman]

Simpletons beware... F-Bb-C7 is going to nail the tonal centre as F. It doesn't how much you try and play A phrygian over that, it won't sound like A phrygian. Just like F major with a focus on the 3rd. Absolutely. But "accenting A" - in melody or improvisation - in key of F is not enough to give a phrygian sound , if the chords are contradicting that. It will also not "take you out of key or mode" - only a chord sequence can do that. You can move around between keys or modes if playing totally solo, by how you phrase, and which notes you stress or finish phrases on. But once you have a chord sequence, then that will dictate the effective key or mode, by the root of whatever chord seems to dominate. In a random set of chords from a major scale, that's likely to point to the major key as "home", because Ionian mode is the strongest. That's why we need to be highly selective with chords when trying to indicate (play in) one of the other modes.

 

I agree Jon. You did not understand my post. We do not disagree.

 

I told him to try F-Bb-C as an experiment in sound, not as an example of A-Phrygian.

 

It doesn't appear the OP understands where A-phrygian comes from. Telling him about using melodic minor, etc. when he doesn't understand that seems a bit too advanced.

[gennation]

 

I agree Jon. You did not understand my post. We do not disagree. I told him to try F-Bb-C as an experiment in sound, not as an example of A-Phrygian. It doesn't appear the OP understands where A-phrygian comes from. Telling him about using melodic minor, etc. when he doesn't understand that seems a bit too advanced.

 

 

Those other scales might be a bit advanced for sure, but it looks like has was playing the Am-E progression already. So, it's not too far off topic. ANd he certainly doesn't want to associate that progression with A Phrygian.

[Virgman]

 

Hello If I wanted to play A Phrygian what chords would I use it over ? Just a simple answer for a simpleton please:)

 

 

I thought this was his question.

 

Not to get into a pissing match but you also suggested a progression that was not A-phrygian.

[Virgman]

Yeah, and so did you. (OK, get the measuring tape out, who pissed furthest? Or is it highest that counts? Damn I never was too good at these things...)

 

No chance. I'm not gonna show my peepee.

[JonR]

No chance. I'm not gonna show my peepee.

Damn, you replied before I deleted my post (in case anyone reading wonders what the hell is going on.)

 

(So what's wrong with your peepee, huh? )

[gennation]

 

I thought this was his question. Not to get into a pissing match but you also suggested a progression that was not A-phrygian.

 

 

Did I suggest a progression that wasn't phrygian?

 

I haven't had my first sip of coffee yet, and I'm not the greatest typer, so please clarify.

[gennation]

No chance. I'm not gonna show my peepee.

 

Toto

[gennation]

 

I thought this was his question. Not to get into a pissing match but you also suggested a progression that was not A-phrygian.

 

 

I pee, err...I see now you weren't addressing me.

[meganutt7]

A real good way to play modal progressions is to take the ROOT CHORD, in this case: Am, and then the IV and V chords of the PARENT MAJOR SCALE (A Phrygian = F major... so the IV and V would be Bb and C) and play them over an A bassnote....

 

So something like: ||: Am | Bb/A | C/A | Bb/A :||

 

Would be a really good representation of the modal framework..

[Virgman]

Thank you, Danny.

 

That's what I was talking about.

 

I think.

[gennation]

Thank you, Danny. That's what I was talking about. I think.

 

You should have just said "like Frank Gambale"

 

Frank used to promote the moving diatonic chords under the root endlessly like mega is suggesting. It's all in the mode for sure. But it isn't always the most inspirational on it's own. Because it never really "goes" any place else.

 

Although, if it's a small piece in a tune that does "go" some place, then it's great to be able to recognize what's going on when you see it.

 

A great example of a great tune that has these types of things in it, without putting the listener to sleep by ONLY using it is...Windows by Chick Corea (note: this is Lydian though and not Phrygian but does has those pedal tone/"in the bass" modal sets of chords)

[Virgman]

You should have just said "like Frank Gambale" Frank used to promote the moving diatonic chords under the root endlessly like mega is suggesting. It's all in the mode for sure. But it isn't always the most inspirational on it's own. Because it never really "goes" any place else. Although, if it's a small piece in a tune that does "go" some place, then it's great to be able to recognize what's going on when you see it. A great example of a great tune that has these types of things in it, without putting the listener to sleep by ONLY using it is...Windows by Chick Corea (note: this is Lydian though and not Phrygian but does has those pedal tone/"in the bass" modal sets of chords)

 

Damn, I am not kidding you, I thought of Gambale when I posted that. I'm serious.

 

In his book about guitar he talks about playing a certain mode or arp over various chords in a key. Sometimes it sounds pretty out there but it's a matter of taste.

 

But think about it.

 

Am-Bb-C is a Phrygian progression if key of F

 

Am and F are subs, the 1 and 3 chord...

 

F-Bb-C subs for Am-Bb-C

 

So try Am-Phrygian over F-Bb-C.

[gennation]

 

Damn, I am not kidding you, I thought of Gambale when I posted that. I'm serious. In his book about guitar he talks about playing a certain mode or arp over various chords in a key. Sometimes it sounds pretty out there but it's a matter of taste. But think about it. Am-Bb-C is a Phrygian progression if key of F Am and F are subs, the 1 and 3 chord... F-Bb-C subs for Am-Bb-C So try Am-Phrygian over F-Bb-C.

 

 

No problem. It's the old cross-modal-naming thing. But, the thing is, the C chord in a progression moving to F is going to be based in F. I now what you are though, but to resolve on A it would sound like the M3 of F.

[meganutt7]

 

Damn, I am not kidding you, I thought of Gambale when I posted that. I'm serious. In his book about guitar he talks about playing a certain mode or arp over various chords in a key. Sometimes it sounds pretty out there but it's a matter of taste. But think about it. Am-Bb-C is a Phrygian progression if key of F Am and F are subs, the 1 and 3 chord... F-Bb-C subs for Am-Bb-C So try Am-Phrygian over F-Bb-C.

 

 

Am and F are subs in a more diatonic context, not so muc ha modal one... The whole point of a modeal type jam is that it doesn't GO ANYWHERE.... It need s to stay static for long enough for you to establish the sound an character of the mode over the progression... You need at least 4 bars, ususally, to establish a moda lsound that will resonate with people...

 

last night, we played a few jam that had modal implicaitons... We did one based on minor thirds: 4 bars of Am7, 4 of Cm7, 4 of Ebm7 and 4 of F#m7... This allowed us to play Dorian for each of the chords.... it ALSO helps that these chords are not diatonicaly related to one another at all.... That is another thing about modal tunes, usually... they don't really use progressions, per se... They may go into another key or mode (via modulation) for a section, but the whole point is that things stay static as far as the tonal center.

 

Look at So What by Miles... Dm7 for 16 bars... THAT is enough time to develop some ideas... Then Ebm7 for eight bars... again, enough time to establish some clear cut ideas... then back to Dm7 for another 8...

 

Most any tune you will encounter that claims to be modal will have a similar formula... This is precisely why, during the modal era of jazz, players started using fourth voicings and other alternative voicings that were not tertian in nature. Tertian harmony is simply too synonymous with diatonicism and motion.... Using quartal harmonies, for instance, helps to OBSCURE the propulsion of tertian voicings/harmonies, which can then be used in a modal context to great effect!!!

 

This is not to say that the bassist cannot play notes other than the root, or that the accompanists cannot play a triad... It's just a different mode of thinking and a different approach...

[JonR]

Damn, I am not kidding you, I thought of Gambale when I posted that. I'm serious. In his book about guitar he talks about playing a certain mode or arp over various chords in a key. Sometimes it sounds pretty out there but it's a matter of taste. But think about it. Am-Bb-C is a Phrygian progression if key of F Am and F are subs, the 1 and 3 chord... F-Bb-C subs for Am-Bb-C So try Am-Phrygian over F-Bb-C.

I think you may have misunderstood Gambale (or he just did a bad job of explaining the concept - not all great guitarists are great explainers ).

 

This is really about clear (and useful) definitions of terms. In one sense everything you say is right. But in another (more important one) it's either rmeaningless or confusing.

 

To look at your statements n detail:

 

Am-Bb-C is a Phrygian progression if key of F - Why? In what sense is it "phrygian"? What does "key" mean in this context? [see below*]

 

Am and F are subs, the 1 and 3 chord...Yes, but generally only one way. Ie, you can replace an F with Am (in key of F anyway), but not always vice versa.

Certainly it doesn't apply to A phrygian mode.

 

F-Bb-C subs for Am-Bb-C - not really. Vice versa, yes: Am-Bb-C might sub for F-Bb-C.

But - especially if we want an A phrygian mode sound, we can't replace Am with F. Because the tonal centre has been totally removed!

 

 

* What I mean is that the USEFUL (least confusing) use of these terms is as follows:

 

KEY: the sound of a tonality; the sense of a gravitational centre or focus to a piece of music. Equivalent to a TONIC chord, a major or minor "I" which dominates the other chords.

Will usually imply an associated SCALE, but that scale may be subject to alteration or variation.

 

(The confusing definition of "key" is when it is used to simply mean a scale. Eg, to say that any piece of music which uses the notes ABCDEFG - in any order - is "in the key of C major". It isn't, unless we can hear that C is the tonal centre; which usually means the tune ends on a C chord, and probably - tho not necessarily - starts on it.)

 

MODE: same as "KEY", except it generally has a much weaker sense of gravitational centre, and less varied harmonic movement. Historically, the system of MODES predated the system of KEYS, which grew out of it.

As with key, implies an associated scale, but in this case the scale is much less subject to alteration. (In the medieval period, modes did include occasional alteration: in contemporary usage they don't, partly so as to distinguish them from keys.)

In modern music, we use "mode" to refer to a tonality which is NOT either a major or minor "key". (In fact, in strict terms, only keys are "tonal", so modes would form "modalities", I guess. But we can still speak of modes having a keynote, namely their root note. The keynote of A phrygian is A, not F. F is the "tonic" of the relative major key.)

 

There are many confusing usages of "mode", the main one of which states that a key "contains" 7 modes. Eg, that A phrygian mode is "in the key of F major". This is a meaningless statement. Like saying the key of D minor is "in the key of F major" - or the "key of F major is in the key of D minor". You may as well say that "the key of F major is in A phrygian mode".

In truth A phrygian is "relative" to F major, same as D minor is. One is not "in" the other.

 

You wouldn't say "Dm can sub for F, therefore F-Bb-C is a sequence in D minor". (Or would you?)

 

I suspect that when Gambale was talking about "playing a certain mode or arp over various chords in a key", he wasn't talking about relative modes (such as A phrygian over an F major key sequence). Especially if you say "sometimes it sounds pretty out there", it's more likely he was talking about modes parallel to the chord root.

(If he was playing A phrygian over any sequence - any chord - in F major, it wouldn't sound "out there" at all; it would simply sound like the diatonic major key, as would any mode of that scale.)

 

Eg, playing A dorian over Am in key of F major. It would fit the chord, but sound pretty out relative to the key. I doubt in fact he would have chosen something like that, but F lydian over an F chord (in key of F) would be likely.

Even more likely would be modes of melodic minor over certain chords in major or minor keys (unrelated to the key of the melodic minor). Eg, C melodic minor over an F chord (F lydian dominant) in key of C major. Or F melodic minor over an E chord (E altered) in key of A minor.

[PGAPIT]

Modes are not Keys, nor are they substitutions. They are simply a relationship of harmony to scale.

 

It is true that many of the modes pre-date classical 12 tone Harmony (often having Greek or Mediterranean origins), which focuses almost completely on the 1st mode (Ionian), and the 6th mode (Aeolian)--or natural major and minor.

 

This harmony-scale relationship means they are like sound personalities of a scale. A Phrygian has a bit of a Spanish sound, but only if you cadence your playing upon the A minor chord using an F Major scale. It is a "mode" of F, in that it is a naturally occurring sound that comes from playing those notes (the F Major scale) over the particular chord in question (A minor).

 

Amin, Bflat major, C Maj do work as an A Phrygian progression, but only if the tonal center remains (especially at cadence) A minor. If you linger too long on each of these chords (such as a couple of bars a piece), you will actually be playing A Phrygian, B Flat Lydian, and C Mixolydian--when you play F major over these changes, as these three chords are all naturally occurring modes of F major.

 

If you wish to get an A Phrygian sound focus upon the A minor chord! But realize that these basic diatonic modes are merely a starting point.

 

BTW, the A Sus flat 9 chord is a good Phrygian chord--but for Harmonic minor 5, not for F major; it is called Phrygian dominant and occurs when D harmonic minor is played over an A dominant--the sus flat 9 gives the most proto-typical sound, but an A dominant still works (and occurs naturally in the D harmonic minor scale). The original Phrygian mode is not necessarily a cadence toward minor, while the Phrygian dominant mode nearly always leans toward this relationship (due to the natural 7, instead of the flat 7 that occurs in its relative minor--in A Phrygian dominant the C#, or 3rd of the A, leans toward D and resolution). Phrygian dominant is a very spanish, almost Egyptian sounding mode, and occurs mostly in Spanish music and heavy metal, hardcore, etc...(Malmsteen uses this endlessly).

 

Modes tend to confuse many players due to their very loose, and relative, nature. It is more important to understand why a set of notes (scale, arpeggio, chromatic passage, etc...) sounds the way it does over a particular chord, or set of chords. Modal jazz tends to have long repetitious changes that allow the improviser to stress a particular mode of a scale; often playing the same mode in a different key, like playing A Dorian over A minor, then playing E Dorian over E minor; by doing this guys like Miles Davis could stress a certain sound over different changes. Although in metal we often imply the mode rather than playing the chord as overtly as a jazz player would--an A 5 chord still can sound Phrygian if you play F major over it! When I was in college, most of my Jazz instructors would tell me to get out of modal thinking, and into more open, and creative expression using superimposition, chromaticism, etc...

[JonR]

 

BTW, the A Sus flat 9 chord is a good Phrygian chord--but for Harmonic minor 5, not for F major; it is called Phrygian dominant and occurs when D harmonic minor is played over an A dominant--the sus flat 9 gives the most proto-typical sound, but an A dominant still works (and occurs naturally in the D harmonic minor scale).

You're right both scales fit, but whenever I've seen a susb9 chord in a jazz chart, it's always a modal chord implying phrygian, not a V chord in harmonic minor.

Tha's also what Mark Levine says in his Jazz Theory Book. (I know there's plenty of issues with that book.)

 

I can see that a susb9 is like a minor key ii chord (m7b5) with the V note in the bass, so I can see it would work like that (same as a 9sus in a major key). I just haven't seen it.

 

Do you have published examples of a tune using a susb9 as a V in a minor key? Or as a phrygian dominant modal chord? (genuinely interested.)

 

(nice post, btw)

[Virgman]

I have certainly learned something on this one. I appreciate it.

 

That's one less mistake I will make on that one.