left hand 3rd and 4th finger independence problem

[Santuzzo]

Hi,

 

I have some problems when using my 3rd and 4th finger successively, like in any patter that goes 134 or 431 (numbers=left hand fingers in this case).

This is becoming especially a problem when playing say the Paul Gilbert lick eg 10-12-13- on B string, then 10 en e string, and 13-12-10 on b-string.

No matter how hard I practice this using my 3rd and 4th finger, I'd always find it much easier to finger a lick like this with my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd finger.

 

It's not that I generally have problems using my pinky (finger combinations of 124 work well), the problem only occurs when 3rd and 4th finger need to work together.

 

In order to solver this I been trying to use that exact finger combination a lot, and whenever I play 3notes on a string, each 2 frets apart, and it is higher on the neck (say somewhere around 8the fret and higher) I use my 1st, 3rd and 4th finger.

STILL, it seems it will never get as good as when I use finger combination 124 or 123. I guess it's just the anatomy of my hand, nothing I can do about it?

 

Does anybody else have this issue? And advice, suggestions,opinions, thoughts?

 

 

Thanks,

Lars

[mosiddiqi]

Hey Lars ...I too, would play that particular Paul Gilbert lick as 1,2,3, rather than 1,3,4..but I've never thought of it as an issue Sorry, that's probably not very helpful, but I just figure that if I can get the execution I want..I'm not that bothered about how I got it..

[Santuzzo]

Hey Lars ...I too, would play that particular Paul Gilbert lick as 1,2,3, rather than 1,3,4..but I've never thought of it as an issue Sorry, that's probably not very helpful, but I just figure that if I can get the execution I want..I'm not that bothered about how I got it..

 

Thanks, mos !

Yes, that is very helpful, because I tend to over-think and over-analyze stuff like this, whereas what you are doing is so much more practical, ie instead of worrying about it or even thinking about it you simply choose thew fingering that works better for you!

 

I guess, I'm too academic about things like these, as in I think I HAVE to have all finger evenly developed whereas this is (probably) a limitation of the hand that can't be overcome, also: if the lick sounds good, who cares what finger in twas played with.... I have to keep telling this to myself!

[monto]

if u watch this guy below, he (in my opinion) really seems to keep his little finger use to a minimum in cases where i thought he would/should definately be using it.

 

he's a great guitarist. nuff said!

 

[video=youtube;EWXl_EpFGjc]

[Santuzzo]

 

That's Andy James, and YES, the guy is awesome !

 

It's funny you posted that, because just today I read a post of him on the LickLibrary forum where he said he avoids the 134 combination and uses 123 or 124, and for him the 3rd and 4th finger don't work together well.

So, I guess it is a common think

[jonfinn]

The 3rd and 4th fingers are controlled by the same muscle tendon. Therefore, it's natural that developing more independence between those fingers will be more challenging.

 

Apply patience and diligence.

[1001gear]

nuther thing is the first three line up pretty comfortably leaving the pinky grabbing air.

 

Still you should make yourself develop the usage. Can't hurt.

[Santuzzo]

nuther thing is the first three line up pretty comfortably leaving the pinky grabbing air. Still you should make yourself develop the usage. Can't hurt.

 

Thanks !

[Alex_DeLarge]

What is that 'capo thing' that andy james uses in the video?

[Santuzzo]

 

What is that 'capo thing' that andy james uses in the video?

 

 

I think that's just a hair tie to keep the strings from making noise.

[polishpaul]

Have you ever tried the full classical guitar fingering drill, using both hands? I enjoy doing it - it kind of amazes me. It takes a while to get going with it, but I found it well worth the effort.

 

Pick a string, and with the left hand do a 1234. With the right hand, you need to pluck the left-hand 1 with the first finger, the 2 with the middle finger, the 3 with the third finger and the 4 with the..............first finger. Then the next sequence of 1234 will start with the middle finger of the right hand, and so on. Accent the first pluck of each 1234 sequence. So three right hand fingers are rolling around to deal with the four note sequences which the left hand is fretting, the accent falling on a different right-hand finger each time.

 

I think by using the fingers of both hands in this way, a very high level of co-ordination and finger independence can be attained. If you are on an electric using a pick, you won't need to utilize the right-hand improvements when you play.

 

Once the above drill is nailed, you can reverse it, and get into different sequences like 1324 etc. Then reverse those. On each string, all over the fretboard. If a mistake is made at any point, start over.

 

I can go in one right-hand direction easier than the other. Lack of practice on the hard one .

[Santuzzo]

Have you ever tried the full classical guitar fingering drill, using both hands? I enjoy doing it - it kind of amazes me. It takes a while to get going with it, but I found it well worth the effort. Pick a string, and with the left hand do a 1234. With the right hand, you need to pluck the left-hand 1 with the first finger, the 2 with the middle finger, the 3 with the third finger and the 4 with the..............first finger. Then the next sequence of 1234 will start with the middle finger of the right hand, and so on. Accent the first pluck of each 1234 sequence. So three right hand fingers are rolling around to deal with the four note sequences which the left hand is fretting, the accent falling on a different right-hand finger each time. I think by using the fingers of both hands in this way, a very high level of co-ordination and finger independence can be attained. If you are on an electric using a pick, you won't need to utilize the right-hand improvements when you play. Once the above drill is nailed, you can reverse it, and get into different sequences like 1324 etc. Then reverse those. On each string, all over the fretboard. If a mistake is made at any point, start over. I can go in one right-hand direction easier than the other. Lack of practice on the hard one .

 

Thanks a lot!

 

Yeah, I play mostly with a pick, but that sounds like a cool exercise.

 

I do practice those 1234 permutations for finger independence quite a bit

[benzem]

Hi, I have some problems when using my 3rd and 4th finger successively, like in any patter that goes 134 or 431 (numbers=left hand fingers in this case). This is becoming especially a problem when playing say the Paul Gilbert lick eg 10-12-13- on B string, then 10 en e string, and 13-12-10 on b-string. No matter how hard I practice this using my 3rd and 4th finger, I'd always find it much easier to finger a lick like this with my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd finger. It's not that I generally have problems using my pinky (finger combinations of 124 work well), the problem only occurs when 3rd and 4th finger need to work together. In order to solver this I been trying to use that exact finger combination a lot, and whenever I play 3notes on a string, each 2 frets apart, and it is higher on the neck (say somewhere around 8the fret and higher) I use my 1st, 3rd and 4th finger. STILL, it seems it will never get as good as when I use finger combination 124 or 123. I guess it's just the anatomy of my hand, nothing I can do about it? Does anybody else have this issue? And advice, suggestions,opinions, thoughts? Thanks, Lars

 

I think everyone has this to a degree. It's just the way most of us are wired.

 

SRV's pinky came down with his 3rd (unintentionally) on lower string licks.

 

Sure, the 1 2 3 fngrs are gonna be naturally stronger...AND sometimes THE way to go for fast licks.

 

But I think it's really important to work on this common weakness.

 

Think of the licks that REQUIRE this fingering.

 

 

I work on this with a fat but CLEAN tone...and do 1 3 4 legato licks running up all the strings.

 

When you can hammer 1 3 4 on the 1st and 2nd strings with a clean tone and get each note to sound equal....

 

Ya that's good.

[Alex_DeLarge]

1-2-3 fingering might work on 10-12-13, but it might not work on 1-3-4 frets.

[Santuzzo]

1-2-3 fingering might work on 10-12-13, but it might not work on 1-3-4 frets.

 

For me 1-2-3 fingering also works fine on frets 1-3-4

[benzem]

 

Thanks ! Yeah, I will keep working on this, but whenever in a practical situation I feel that 123 fingering works better, I'm gonna go for that, I think..

 

 

 

Oh for sure. I do the same.

 

But when you need a (for instance) 4 note per string lick...like 17,15,14,12 kinda thing..you need some finger independence.

 

BTW, I think working on 4 digit chords is another great way to gain independence and strength.

[monto]

 

What is that 'capo thing' that andy james uses in the video?

 

 

[video=youtube;r5fJwl_8tqw]

[Alex_DeLarge]

For me 1-2-3 fingering also works fine on frets 1-3-4

 

That's fine but for me it is really uncomfortable doin' taht on lower frets.

[Quicksilver21]

what I would do is completely isolate the 3rd and 4th fingers, remove the right hand, and focus... lol. Try doing hammer-ons and pull-offs between the 3rd and 4th fingers (3-4-3-4-3-4-3-4 etc.) as fast, relaxed, and as long as possible (no right hand plucking whatsoever). try out different strings on different areas of the neck. Using a metronome would be a good idea to develop rhythmic stability. This helps develop strength, stamina, and independence between these two fingers. This is just one exercise you can do, but it's simple and very effective IMO.

[dvuksanovich]

Finger independence between the 3rd and 4th fingers is difficult. You're not the only one to experience problems. The way to get to the bottom of this problem is to isolate the fingers and try to figure out what's preventing the independence that you're looking for. Some things you can try:

 

1. Make sure your hand is positioned in such a way that your third and fourth fingers can move freely. The difference in length between the third and fourth finger can create some problems because the best arm/hand position for the 3rd finger and the best arm/hand position for the 4th finger can be very different. You'll likely have to compromise to find a position that works well for both.

2. Place both 3 and 4 on adjacent frets and then try to release one of the fingers. You may find that you're holding on too tight with one or more of the fingers which will create unnecessary tension. Do this both with and without your picking hand. You may also find that your picking hand is causing some tension in your fretting hand. Don't force things... we're after coordination here, not strength.

3. Once you're comfortable with point #1, try some 4-3-0 pull-offs and 4-3-1-0 (anywhere on the fretboard that's comfortable for you) pull-offs with a metronome (slowly at first, I can't stress this enough... the slower the better... think one note per click at 80 bpm). As you speed up, shift the beat around so that you force yourself to get each finger (and the open string) on the beat. You'll probably notice that it's harder when the beat is on certain fingers than on others. Focus in on the harder ones and try to figure out what it is about your motion that's preventing you from playing rhythmically. Again, we're after coordination here, not brute force.

4. Once you've worked on point #2 for a bit, switch over to some songs or licks you've been having trouble with.

5. Rinse and repeat. As you improve, each time you come back to one or more of these points things will feel slightly different (most time because you'll be better at it than you were last time you tried). You'll learn something new each time. I continue to surprise myself... every time I think I've achieved optimum finger independence I'm wrong... there's always more.

 

Hope this helps.