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What do you guys think about refurbished gear?

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  • #16
    I like refurb stuff. I've never had a problem.

    Comment


    • #17
      I like refurb stuff. I've never had a problem.

      Comment


      • #18






        Quote Originally Posted by Josh33
        View Post

        haha yeha i guess.. but i was more interested on what other peoples opinons were. i was most likely going to buy a refurbished unit anyway..



        also.. happy new year!




        new yeard'...
        changes come w/ the whether...

        Comment


        • #19






          Quote Originally Posted by Josh33
          View Post

          haha yeha i guess.. but i was more interested on what other peoples opinons were. i was most likely going to buy a refurbished unit anyway..



          also.. happy new year!




          new yeard'...
          changes come w/ the whether...

          Comment


          • #20






            Quote Originally Posted by Kap'n
            View Post

            If you thinnk about it, refurbed gear (from the manufacturer - not a simple rebox at the store) probably undergoes more intensive, individualized QC than a standard off-the-shelf unit.




            Actually, this is probably not the case. The manufacturer probably gave the dealer a full refund for the wholesale cost, and may have even picked up the return shipping costs. If they're reselling it through a dealer at a lower wholesale cost then they've already lost any profit they would have made on it. Selling it as a refurb is just an attempt to keep from losing the entire value of the product. They're not going to want to invest any more time or money into it than they absolutely have to. They wouldn't have to spend much time on it before it would be cheaper to just scrap it.



            In most cases, I'd bet they give it to a tech to diagnose and repair. The first thing the tech would do is run the final test procedure on it. If it's a big manufacturer then that test is probably fully automated. If it passes that test then they assume it's operator error, put it back in the box, and slap a refurb sticker on it. If it fails then they diagnose it to the bad part (or subassembly if individual parts aren't easily replaceable), replace the faulty part, and rerun the test. If it passes then it goes back in the box.



            Techs at most electronics manufacturing companies don't do QC. They just run the automated test equipment to verify that the product works. If it doesn't then they troubleshoot it to identify the faulty part and send it back for rework. Troubleshooting is often guided fault isolation where the ATE system walks the tech through the troubleshooting procedure, even telling the tech where to put the probe while the ATE performs the measurement. Test engineers usually write those guided fault isolation procedures, so the techs sometimes don't even fully understand how the unit works. They just do what the ATE system tells them to do.



            Whether a repaired refurb goes back to QC for inspection depends on the company's policies. For most consumer electronics companies I'd guess it probably doesn't. It was inspected before they originally sold it, and the only thing that should have changed is whatever the tech replaced. They'd probably assume that the tech could inspect their own work. The tech might give it a quick once over to ensure that there aren't any obvious problems like broken knobs or switches, but they're not going to scrutinize it if it passed the test.



            Bear in mind that it's been a long time since I worked in the consumer electronics industry as either a tech or engineer (being a boutique pedal maker doesn't count), and not all companies are the same. One thing I can say with some confidence is they aren't going to spend more on a refurb than they're going to recover when they sell it. Profit margins are often so low that even a production unit that requires rework because it didn't pass the first time has already wiped out any profit they would have made. The only reason they bother to rework it is to avoid losing the cost of the materials that went into making it. When the cost of the labor required to salvage it exceeds the cost of the materials then it's no longer worth it. The unit is scrap.
            <div class="signaturecontainer">Owner/Engineer, <a href="http://www.wattson-fx.com" target="_blank">Wattson Classic Electronics</a></div>

            Comment


            • #21






              Quote Originally Posted by Kap'n
              View Post

              If you thinnk about it, refurbed gear (from the manufacturer - not a simple rebox at the store) probably undergoes more intensive, individualized QC than a standard off-the-shelf unit.




              Actually, this is probably not the case. The manufacturer probably gave the dealer a full refund for the wholesale cost, and may have even picked up the return shipping costs. If they're reselling it through a dealer at a lower wholesale cost then they've already lost any profit they would have made on it. Selling it as a refurb is just an attempt to keep from losing the entire value of the product. They're not going to want to invest any more time or money into it than they absolutely have to. They wouldn't have to spend much time on it before it would be cheaper to just scrap it.



              In most cases, I'd bet they give it to a tech to diagnose and repair. The first thing the tech would do is run the final test procedure on it. If it's a big manufacturer then that test is probably fully automated. If it passes that test then they assume it's operator error, put it back in the box, and slap a refurb sticker on it. If it fails then they diagnose it to the bad part (or subassembly if individual parts aren't easily replaceable), replace the faulty part, and rerun the test. If it passes then it goes back in the box.



              Techs at most electronics manufacturing companies don't do QC. They just run the automated test equipment to verify that the product works. If it doesn't then they troubleshoot it to identify the faulty part and send it back for rework. Troubleshooting is often guided fault isolation where the ATE system walks the tech through the troubleshooting procedure, even telling the tech where to put the probe while the ATE performs the measurement. Test engineers usually write those guided fault isolation procedures, so the techs sometimes don't even fully understand how the unit works. They just do what the ATE system tells them to do.



              Whether a repaired refurb goes back to QC for inspection depends on the company's policies. For most consumer electronics companies I'd guess it probably doesn't. It was inspected before they originally sold it, and the only thing that should have changed is whatever the tech replaced. They'd probably assume that the tech could inspect their own work. The tech might give it a quick once over to ensure that there aren't any obvious problems like broken knobs or switches, but they're not going to scrutinize it if it passed the test.



              Bear in mind that it's been a long time since I worked in the consumer electronics industry as either a tech or engineer (being a boutique pedal maker doesn't count), and not all companies are the same. One thing I can say with some confidence is they aren't going to spend more on a refurb than they're going to recover when they sell it. Profit margins are often so low that even a production unit that requires rework because it didn't pass the first time has already wiped out any profit they would have made. The only reason they bother to rework it is to avoid losing the cost of the materials that went into making it. When the cost of the labor required to salvage it exceeds the cost of the materials then it's no longer worth it. The unit is scrap.
              <div class="signaturecontainer">Owner/Engineer, <a href="http://www.wattson-fx.com" target="_blank">Wattson Classic Electronics</a></div>

              Comment


              • #22
                If it doesn't work you can get your money back right? How can you lose?
                <div class="signaturecontainer"><a href="http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showpost.php?p=31911197&amp;postcount=205" target="_blank">Good Trades/Deals</a><br />
                <br />
                <a href="http://www.reverbnation.com/honestthieves" target="_blank">ReverbNation - Honest Thieves</a><br />
                <a href="http://www.facebook.com/honestthieves" target="_blank">FaceBook - Honest Thieves</a><br />
                <br />
                <br />
                Music<br />
                <font size="1">Jars of Clay - MuteMath - Foo Fighters - Smashing Pumpkins - Led Zeppelin - Iron &amp; Wine (to relax by)</font></div>

                Comment


                • #23
                  If it doesn't work you can get your money back right? How can you lose?
                  <div class="signaturecontainer"><a href="http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showpost.php?p=31911197&amp;postcount=205" target="_blank">Good Trades/Deals</a><br />
                  <br />
                  <a href="http://www.reverbnation.com/honestthieves" target="_blank">ReverbNation - Honest Thieves</a><br />
                  <a href="http://www.facebook.com/honestthieves" target="_blank">FaceBook - Honest Thieves</a><br />
                  <br />
                  <br />
                  Music<br />
                  <font size="1">Jars of Clay - MuteMath - Foo Fighters - Smashing Pumpkins - Led Zeppelin - Iron &amp; Wine (to relax by)</font></div>

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I got a killer deal on my AT4050 because it was refurbished and because there was plenty enough testimony and trust going for 8th Street at the time that I didn't think twice about buying from them. So I'd say it has more to do with how much you trust the seller to give you a good product no matter what the condition.
                    <blockquote><hr>AimmarCair wrote:<br>EHX could clean out my anus.<br><br>Delicious HOG enema.<hr></blockquote>

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I got a killer deal on my AT4050 because it was refurbished and because there was plenty enough testimony and trust going for 8th Street at the time that I didn't think twice about buying from them. So I'd say it has more to do with how much you trust the seller to give you a good product no matter what the condition.
                      <blockquote><hr>AimmarCair wrote:<br>EHX could clean out my anus.<br><br>Delicious HOG enema.<hr></blockquote>

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        echoing the sentiment of others:



                        The amount of attention and 'quality effort' put into a refurb device will, all things being equal, be inversely proportional to the size of the company.

                        A large company will put very time/effort/technical-knowledge little into a refurb. It's all about the bottom line.

                        A tiny 1-4 person outfit will put in more; they are interested in salvaging anything they can, including their reputation.



                        And to echo amp_surgeon's cautionary tale of the automated test, I've seen a proposed ATE setup that would have absolutely overlooked 2 seriously bad noise issues due to the manner in which the unit was grounded. Simply put, the test rig did not mimic the actual final product. Flaky units passed ATE, but the final product could be unacceptable. This was specifically a noise-issue, which is one of the biggest resons why people return a piece of audio electronics.

                        Technicians, generally, do not have golden ears (I worked with a lot of them in both the musical biz and in medical electronics) and the techs just do not have the training, the ear, or the knowledge (neither do many EE's, but that's just an extension of the same ol' story).



                        I wouldn't want a refurb, personally, because I believe there's a significant chance that the original issue still remains an issue.
                        <div class="signaturecontainer">Blind Doc Jones' Pickles....Cures What Ails Ya'<br>Good Deals with: Catalinbread, BR4D/MojoHand (via his retailers), sh333 (teh debbil)</div><br><br>Not around much any more

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          echoing the sentiment of others:



                          The amount of attention and 'quality effort' put into a refurb device will, all things being equal, be inversely proportional to the size of the company.

                          A large company will put very time/effort/technical-knowledge little into a refurb. It's all about the bottom line.

                          A tiny 1-4 person outfit will put in more; they are interested in salvaging anything they can, including their reputation.



                          And to echo amp_surgeon's cautionary tale of the automated test, I've seen a proposed ATE setup that would have absolutely overlooked 2 seriously bad noise issues due to the manner in which the unit was grounded. Simply put, the test rig did not mimic the actual final product. Flaky units passed ATE, but the final product could be unacceptable. This was specifically a noise-issue, which is one of the biggest resons why people return a piece of audio electronics.

                          Technicians, generally, do not have golden ears (I worked with a lot of them in both the musical biz and in medical electronics) and the techs just do not have the training, the ear, or the knowledge (neither do many EE's, but that's just an extension of the same ol' story).



                          I wouldn't want a refurb, personally, because I believe there's a significant chance that the original issue still remains an issue.
                          <div class="signaturecontainer">Blind Doc Jones' Pickles....Cures What Ails Ya'<br>Good Deals with: Catalinbread, BR4D/MojoHand (via his retailers), sh333 (teh debbil)</div><br><br>Not around much any more

                          Comment


                          • #28






                            Quote Originally Posted by Josh33
                            View Post

                            interesting ideas fellas. The unit im looking at comes from an authorized dealer and has a 1 year warranty with it.. Cant really see a bad side if i can save a couple of bucks. It's not like i would be using it everyday to make a living so if it breaks and i have to send it out, it wouldnt be a big issue.




                            The last two Apple computers I've purchased have been refurbished. I couldn't see anything about either one that suggested that they were anything other than brand new computers, and I saved considerable money. Both had full warranties too.



                            Bottom line - if the vendor / dealer is reputable, and the gear carries a full warranty and can be returned / exchanged within a month or so if you don't like it, I see no reason not to go with refurbished gear when it's available.
                            **********

                            "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

                            - George Carlin

                            "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

                            - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

                            "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

                            - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

                            Comment


                            • #29






                              Quote Originally Posted by Josh33
                              View Post

                              interesting ideas fellas. The unit im looking at comes from an authorized dealer and has a 1 year warranty with it.. Cant really see a bad side if i can save a couple of bucks. It's not like i would be using it everyday to make a living so if it breaks and i have to send it out, it wouldnt be a big issue.




                              The last two Apple computers I've purchased have been refurbished. I couldn't see anything about either one that suggested that they were anything other than brand new computers, and I saved considerable money. Both had full warranties too.



                              Bottom line - if the vendor / dealer is reputable, and the gear carries a full warranty and can be returned / exchanged within a month or so if you don't like it, I see no reason not to go with refurbished gear when it's available.
                              **********

                              "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

                              - George Carlin

                              "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

                              - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

                              "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

                              - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

                              Comment

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