66 pro reverb

[CarbonCrank]

First off I have to say without a search function this place is about useless. I started searching on "Vintage Fender amps" and got nothing. The searched "Fender amplifiers" and got nothing. Then searched "Fender" and got nothing. They may as well remove the search window that gives the illusion this site is searchable. I'm certain there have been relevant discussions about what I'm here for and they are impossible to find. .

 

I have a 66 Fender Pro Reverb amp I'm trying to sell. But I'm having trouble explaining why it has a "Virbrolux Reverb" sticker in the cabinet. The sticker does say October 1966 on it and the cabinet size, chassis number, transformer numbers, speaker sizes and speaker numbers all check out is 66 pro reverb. My father bought it. I was 16 at the time and remember about that time the amp showing up in his living room. I only saw him a weekend a month but I do remember it and the Princeton reverb and his Gretch Chet Atkins Country Gentleman from around the same time. I inherited it. It has always either been in his house or with me. It's near perfect and yet I think people are shying away from it because of the sticker issue. I've read in more than one place that fender made mistakes like that all the time and people should worry more about the rest of the amp checking out in about a dozen ways. The numbers check out, it's the solid pine dove jointed cabinet. It has the particle board speaker baffle board, it has the cloth covered wiring and on and on. Who knows, maybe the amp looks to good to be true. It's a 9+ condition wise compete with cover and foot switch.

 

I'm interested in some expert input on this so I can get people who I'm trying to get to part with over 2 grand with to be assured there's no trickery going on. I mean really, what kind of trickery would that be. If it was a Vibrolux Reverb it was be worth at least as much as a Pro Reverb. There is no reason I can think of for any possibility other than Fender thinking it was no big deal when they did it.

 

I have it listed on Cragslist with lots of good photos including pics of the guts. I just don't know if I'd be breaking rules by posting it here. I haven't used this forum for a long time because of the search issue.

[onelife]

What is this sticker you speak of and where is it located?

 

Can you post a picture?

[CarbonCrank]

I have more.

[WRGKMC]

Both the chassis and Tube chart indicate its a 1967 Blackface, not a 1966. (same year as my Bassman)

 

The Logo says Fender Musical Instruments not Fender Electrical Instruments so it was built after CBS bought Fender.

 

The Vibrolux and Pro were very similar. Many of the components were the same, chassis, boards etc.

 

The main differences are, the Vibrolux was a lower 35W, used 10" speakers, Smaller/lower voltage transformers and used AA964, AA864 and AB568 circuits.

 

The Pro reverb used 12" speakers, produced 40W, had higher voltage transformers and only used an AA165 or AB668 circuit.

 

Its possible they both used the same output transformers. The difference between 35 and 40W isn't much. The power transformers did have higher voltages for the pro however.

 

Tone wise the amps were very similar. The Vibrolux having 10's had a more focused midrange and broke up early. The Pro reverb had allot more clean headroom with its added wattage and 12" speakers.

 

Your amp does appear to be original but you'd need an tech to verify it 100%. As far as the tube chart it was common for Fender to use whatever was available. The speakers are Oxford 12L6 which is period correct. The grill cloth seems to be aged correctly.

 

What does stand out, and the reason why I can see others might question the amp is the lack of any corrosion on the hardware. An amp that's 51 years old and survives without any hardware rust is too good to be true.

 

The other thing I was looking at for dating were the transformers. U found these pics but the physical sizes and types look similar. You'd have to measure the voltage outputs or compare the part numbers stamped on them to find the differences.

 

Here's a pic of a 66 Pro Reverb.

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"custom","height":"444","title":"4.jpg","width":"757","data-attachmentid":32209046}[/ATTACH]

 

Here is the 68 Vibrolux which looks dam near the same

 

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"dzxjkctzaguqylemezge.jpg","data-attachmentid":32209047}[/ATTACH]

 

The one thing that does stand out visually is the Pro above uses a longer cap cover that extends over to the center tube on the right/

The vibrolux below is shorter. Unfortunately that's not a great indication. CBS through all kinds of parts into the blackface amps just to use up the old parts stock and as they ran out they went with new vendors. The only real way of knowing is to check the circuitry and see if its a AA165 or AB668 circuit.

 

The tube chart is useless other then dating or tube assignment. The cab was likely the same for the Vibrolux and Pro. they simply used a different speaker baffle for 10" and 10" speakers. Anyone buying a blackface and does his research should be able to figure allot of this stuff out too. Its no great mystery what went on during those years.

 

 

 

 

 

[onelife]

The Vibrolux Reverb cabinet is noticeably smaller than that of the Pro Reverb.

 

The Pro Reverb is the same size as a Twin Reverb.

[CarbonCrank]

Yes that's true. The cabinet of smaller which means the vibrolux Reverb chassis is also smaller which means it's too small for the pro Reverb cabinet. There would be gaps on both sides of the chassis and wouldn't fill up to space.

[CarbonCrank]

Yes, I know it was after CBS bought Fender which was in 65. I already know what year it is. It's a 66 confirmed half a dozen dissing different ways. Right down to the Knobs that have the set screw at 10 and the snowball 8 which is 66 and earlier. I just recently sold a 67 Princeton reverb the set screw was at one and no snoball 8. I said in my post I had already determined it to be a 66 and even said how I had determined it. So I was a little annoyed when that appeared to be ignored and it was claimed to be a 67 Vibrolux Reverb in a Pro Reverb cabinet. That is exactly the conclusion I don't want someone to jump to! That's why I've spent so much time checking everything out everything else about it.

 

My reason for posting was looking for help with the notion that it has the wrong sticker in the cabinet. When I saw the statement that declared it was a 67 I basically went back and did all the research I had done six months ago so I could be clear. And that's a good thing because I now have all that info together on one place.

 

I did some more research on that today but I've added that further down.

 

Here's where I'm getting my information (not the knobs thing. That's obscure.)

http://www.superiormusic.com/page195.htm

 

The date code on the sticker is PJ. That correlates to October 1966. Just because they put the wrong sticker on it doesn't mean they didn't put the right date stamp on it.

 

A 07595 chassis number is from 1966 according to that same page although it's more ambiguous.

A07595 is a number between A02700 and A09200 which makes it a 66.

But oddly, A07595 is also a number between A07000 and A10200 which is 67.

 

Pro Reverb AA165 (blackface)

A00100 to A02700 - 1965

A02700 to A09200 - 1966

A07000 to A10200 - 1967

 

The sticker date code is oct 66 and everything else date to 66 or 65.

 

The transformer number is 606 550

 

That means it was made in the 50th week of 1965.

 

The other Transformer has the number 606624. That dates to the 24th week of 1966.

 

The speaker number is 325545 which is a Utah speaker made in the 45th week of 1965. The Utah speakers are rare and desirable.

 

there is a code on the inside of the chassis in big black lettering that says; T1 23866. I haven't yet discovered what the T1 refers to but the last four conforms with other date coding which would indicate the 38th week of 1966, which would have been the last week of September of 1966 and then you've got an October 66 stamp on the cabinet sticker.

 

The sticker on the cabinet says Vibrolux Reverb and shows the circit as AA864. But that is a Vibrolux circuit and the Pro Reverb should be an AA165. Everything I see about this chassis appears to be a AA165.

 

"At the Fender factory they used old tube charts when new models came, probably because the tube layout was the same. Determining production date by serial number and transformer codes is better, and you should also inspect the circuit to be completely sure."

 

(http://fenderguru.com/amps/bassman/)

 

"Another thing is the labeling from the Fender factory. Look at all the examples of wrong labels! No matter what was in the chassis as long as the tube compliment matched the chart, Fender would use it. Or it seems like that anyway!

 

And of course, we tend to thing of all of this from the player/collector/tech viewpoint, not a MANUFACTURING viewpoint. Fender did not have future collectors in mind when they made those amps! Remember Leo (cheapskate that he was) cut "Broadcaster" off the head decal to make the "Nocaster" only to save a few bucks! To get a perspective on Leo's thriftyness, the new labels would have cost about the same as the profit from one guitar. Down time was not an issue either. Labeling would have only taken a few days. Leo HAD the labels and was determined to USE them. Fortunate for collectors tho..."

 

(http://archive.ampage.org/threads/0/...e_Chart-1.html)

 

 

Solid Pine finger jointed cabinet.

Cloth covered wires

Particle board speaker baffle board

 

So the comments I found today about how common it was to miss label cabinets I think gives me solid footing with any buyer who might question the $2,400 I'm asking for it. In the more I'm looking into this the $2,400 starts to sound like a bargain especially with original speakers, the cover and the footswitch and it's 9+ condition.

 

[onelife]

I don't have any suspicions about your amplifier. It is what it is and you have set an asking price.

 

It's up to the potential buyer to decide if they want that amp. If it were me, I would play guitar through the amplifier in an effort to determine whether I wanted to buy it. The tube chart (which is just that, a tube chart) would not be a determining factor.

 

 

There are some posters on this forum who speak with an authoritative voice but the information they provide is not always accurate. You will be able to spot them if you decide to frequent the forum.

 

Hopefully that (and the search function) will not dissuade you from becoming an active member. There is a wealth of helpful knowledge and experience here that people are willing to share.

[WRGKMC]

As I sais earlier. Fender typically used up old parts before manufacturing new. I run a parts department where I work. I may have parts on a shelf for years and many of the parts work in multiple model machines. That obviously saves you money by not having to reinvent the wheel for every new model.

 

 

The separate parts of that amp like the chassis were manufactured before the amp was assembled so their dates like the chassis will be older. other parts like caps resistors and pots can be many years older. Thing is amps are dated on the day they are assembled, not the date the parts were manufactured. All the individual parts can tell you are its maximum age.

 

Yours appears to be a 67 and as I said before the tube scheme is exactly the same as the Vibrolux. CBS used up all the blackface parts before making the silver face so many of the amps overlap. You may see popular model silver face being sold in still made in 68 while other less popular models that still had plenty of parts left over being sold as blackface. In your case they simply used up the pro reverb tags and used the Vibrolux in their place.

 

Again, inspecting the actual circuit is the best way of knowing the truth. If the circuits haven't been tampered or the face plate switched its a 67 according to the tag the manufacturer stamped. You have no means of proving its any older no matter how much you quibble over the age of the parts that comprise the build.

[CarbonCrank]

Grrr.... what makes you think it's a 67?

 

I guess I wasted my time giving you all the part numbers. The chassis number is a 66 pro reverb. All the parts date to 66 or before. How do get 67 out of this.

 

No, they didn't use parts that were "years" older. The transformers and speakers date to 65. They wouldn't be in 67. The chassis number is one month before the amp was assembled and the inked stamp INSIDE the chassis dates the same. And the chassis are not parts they left laying around for a year or more. They were the biggest cost in the amp. You build them then you use them. You don't invest in your most expensive part and leave it laying around for years. It wouldn't be frugal.

 

Again, as was pointed out by someone else as well as me, the Vibrolux and Pro Reverb don't have the same size cabinet. The Vib chassis would be to small for the cabinet. Those long bolts they use to hold the chassis in the cabinet would not line up.

 

I've read about wrong stickers and older parts, but I've never seen Fender put the chassis from one model in another and sell it that way. That would be fraudulent, and they would have been called out for it. It's one thing to be frugal like Leo was, and another whole ball of wax to being a crook. The Vibrolux and the Pro Reverb don't sound the same. That difference is why someone would buy one instead of the other.

 

What evidence is there it's a 67? What's this about the faceplate? it's the right faceplate. What are you talking about "tampering with the circuit"? Convince me you're not talking nonsense.

 

"There are some posters on this forum who speak with an authoritative voice but the information they provide is not always accurate. You will be able to spot them if you decide to frequent the forum."

 

Yes, I see that to be the case. That doesn't mean I can let misinformation stand unchallenged.

[onelife]

...

Again, inspecting the actual circuit is the best way of knowing the truth. If the circuits haven't been tampered or the face plate switched its a 67 according to the tag the manufacturer stamped. You have no means of proving its any older no matter how much you quibble over the age of the parts that comprise the build.

 

What is this "tag" you speak of and what is the stamp that indicates it is a '67?

 

From what I understand, the stamp "PJ" on the bottom of the tube chart indicates the amplifier was assembled in October of 1966.

 

​​​​​​​

btw, there are no pre-CBS Fender Pro Reverb amplifiers.