how powerful exactly are tube amps?

[samal50]

I've just been looking into this recently. I own a 25 w solid state Peavey Rage 258, it is "trans tube". I've seen 0.5 watt tube head (from Boss Katana). Is this supposed to be more powerful than my guitar amp? Basically what I'm looking for is small size, big sound. I think going tube is the route. The purpose is for everything: rehearsal, practice, live shows, etc.

 

Even the new Marshall tube head look like a good option for me:

 

Marshall DSL1HR 1-watt Tube Head. The reviews mentioned that small size doesn't mean small sound...

 

I'm curious what kind of cab could I use with this? Does the cab size or wattage determine how loud it will be, not just the tube head's wattage?

 

Been looking into this cab:

 

Headrush FRFR-112 2000-watt 1x12" Powered Guitar Cabinet

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/FRFR112--headrush-frfr-112-2000-watt-1x12-inch-powered-guitar-cabinet

 

What speaker specs should I be looking into? Is 1x12" good? I've asked around for bass amps on another thread as well and they all vary but I may be settling for a 2x10" or a 4x10" bass cab. I wonder what specs would you go for when it comes to guitar cabs?

 

[DeepEnd]

A 1 Watt tube amp puts out--wait for it--1 Watt. A 1 Watt solid state amp puts out--wait for it again--1 Watt. But a 1 Watt SS amp sounds pretty bad when it's driven beyond 1 Watt. A tube amp, OTOH, has what is known as "headroom." Plus, tube distortion doesn't sound as bad as SS distortion, which is another reason why you can drive a tube amp beyond rated power. In practical terms, a 15 Watt tube amp is often loud enough for most purposes where you'd need a nominally much more powerful SS amp. If you're looking at a separate "head," you can connect it to any speaker cab that will handle its output. If you want to get into a tube amp on the cheap, look for a used Kustom Defender 15H and pair it with whatever cab you can afford. I've seen them used for $120 and less. No effects but all the basics you're likely to need.

[WRGKMC]

Transtube Technology" is Peavey's term for the circuitry they use in their solid state amps which is suppose to emulate the tone of a tube amp.

There are no tubes in those amps.

 

Other manufacturers like Marshall and Vox use their own Tube emulations to make an otherwise all solid state amp sound more tube like. Some also make hybrids that have tubes in the preamp like the larger Marshall Valve State amps or they have tubes in the power amp like the Music Man amps. All of them attempt to sound like a full tube amp and succeed or fail based on their own merit.

 

Since you seem to be new to the amp market, check this site out. It's an older site that hasn't been upgraded in a long time but the author did a decent job outlining why tube amps sound good. Like I said, it hasn't been updated to include newer modeling amps and it is written with a heavy bias towards tubes (pun intended) But its a good read none the less because it goes into all the details of things like Effects, Speakers and just about anything involving live or recording which can be useful when choosing an amp.

 

Just realize there are many great solid state options available now which didn't exist when this was written and realize much of his bias towards tubes would have been justified at the time this was written with much of it still being true.

 

http://www.amptone.com/

[onelife]

Check out the Yamaha DG80-112. Great sound and legendary Yamaha reliability.

 

It has all the advantages of a tube amp without any of the disadvantages (the very thing that makes tube amps great is also their weakness).

[Mr.Grumpy]

Basically what I'm looking for is small size, big sound. I think going tube is the route.

 

Tube amps are always:

 

~ More expensive

~ Heavier

~ Larger in size

 

...than a solid state amp with the same power rating. The only reason to use a tube amp is for a superior tone when amplifying electric guitar or electric bass. All your previous questions have been about amplifying your voice, and for that application solid state amps have been the standard PA amplification for since the mid to late 1970s.

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

Also, it's important to point out that two guitar amps of the exact same wattage may be able to achieve different maximum volume levels. This is due in large part to the fact that an amp's volume level is only partially dictated by its power or wattage - the efficiency of the speaker it is driving also has a huge bearing on "how loud" it can get.

 

For more on that, check out this article:

 

http://www.harmonycentral.com/articles/wattage-speaker-efficiency-and-amplifier-quotloudnessquot

 

 

[Axisplayer]

Additionally some manufacturers rate differently than others. I don't mean their watt is different, but some folks rate the wattage as clean amplification before breakup, and others rate max power. A 100 watt solid state probably only puts out about 100 watts. A tube 100 watt amp might well put out 130-140 when it is well into saturation, and 100 while still clean. Less prevalent today, but when SS started becoming more common, people used to say "but they are SS watts, not tube watts" which is ridiculous of course, but easy to see where the thought of different watts came from.

[Mr.Grumpy]

Additionally some manufacturers rate differently than others.

 

In the USA, there is a Federal Trade Commission (FTC) regulations that state how amplifier power is rated, BUT it only applies to home entertainment gear - in other words, home stereos. Professional, music industry gear can be rated in any manner the manufacturer wishes, and this leads to some "creative" power ratings. Any amplifier power rating that uses the words "peak power" or "music power" is basically a giant lie. Behringer is notorious for this - they have a PA amp that's rated at 3,600 watts, that's more wattage than a 120 volt, 15 amp circuit can provide... TC Electronics got caught 'fudging' the wattage numbers on their bass combo.

 

people used to say "but they are SS watts, not tube watts" which is ridiculous of course, but easy to see where the thought of different watts came from.

They still have this 'discussion' on another forum dedicated to a certain low-frequency stringed instrument.

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

In the USA, there is a Federal Trade Commission (FTC) regulations that state how amplifier power is rated, BUT it only applies to home entertainment gear - in other words, home stereos. Professional, music industry gear can be rated in any manner the manufacturer wishes, and this leads to some "creative" power ratings. Any amplifier power rating that uses the words "peak power" or "music power" is basically a giant lie. Behringer is notorious for this - they have a PA amp that's rated at 3,600 watts, that's more wattage than a 120 volt, 15 amp circuit can provide... TC Electronics got caught 'fudging' the wattage numbers on their bass combo.

 

They still have this 'discussion' on another forum dedicated to a certain low-frequency stringed instrument.

 

I recently reviewed a Hartke HD500 bass combo, which is advertised as being "500 watts", which is misleading - it's 500W peak - 250W RMS - a fact that I pointed out twice in the review.

 

As Axisplayer mentioned in his comment, another way companies can fudge is to change the point at which the measurement is made... 20W @ 1% THD vs 20W @ 10% THD, etc.

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Except for maybe recording. A good tube preamp can still do excellent things for voice as are tube microphones.

[WRGKMC]

Yes the distortion level is one trick. Another is to do the test with a fixed sine wave like 1KHz which is typically used.

 

An amp may produce an excellent clean waveform at 1K but you try and pump 80Hz or 10KHZ and you may not get 1/10 the gain before distorting.

 

This is why its also important to qualify "what kind" of amp it is. If its a guitar amp you expect its greatest wattage in the mid ranges, Bass guitar, in the lower frequencies, PA should be close to full fidelity and provide full wattage at all frequencies.

[Axisplayer]

Caveat emptor.

 

[Axisplayer]

I wonder what specs would you go for when it comes to guitar cabs?

 

Specs don't mean much of anything, and sorry that isn't helping you. Speaker size doesn't tell you much of anything. Folks will tell you bass needs 10" for punch, or 18" for bottom end. How big is the speaker in your favorite headphones or earpods? I bet they have plenty of bass. Where you get performance is from using the right speaker in an appropriate cabinet which comes from knowing Thiel Small (TS) parameters. Reputable manufacturers know this and try to do a good job.

 

You also need to know speaker efficiency ratings. They take the form of - some number of decibels measured at one meter at one watt. The bigger that number, the louder the amp will sound all other things being equal. A lot of speakers are in the 96-98 db range. Some speakers are in the 100-102 db range. You have to double wattage to get an increase of 3 db. That means if your speaker is rated at 96 db and you get another rated at 102 db, you have effectively quadrupled the wattage of that same amp.

 

You have to double wattage to get a 3 db increase (in a perfect world) and that is generally considered the smallest change that most people can detect. Quadrupling power gets you +6 db which is VERY easy to hear. Doubling power is NOT doubling volume though. It takes a change of about +10 db to double your "volume" which requires an increase in wattage of 10x. In short, a 100 watt amp is only twice as "loud" as a 10 watt amp. (assuming we have a standard measurement of wattages here, and through speakers of the same efficiency.) We have only addressed volume though, not sonic quality. That is the where freq response charts come into play, as well as polar plots of freq response and position relative to speaker. That generally brings up issues like beaming, and closed back vs open back cabinets. Your decision to make.

 

Also, 100 watt Marshalls (old school stuff) sound glorious, but they are REALLY loud. Unless you play arenas, you don't want efficient speakers, you want ones that will help reduce the volume, not bring it out. Then you can use them in smaller places. A Vox AC-10 is a great amp, but if you are using out, you might go for VERY efficient speaker(s) to help it be a bit louder.

 

The other issues that matters are weight and quality of construction. Weight is obvious, you won't want to carry the heavier amp unless there are significant reasons for doing it (like better sound, or notable volume differences, etc.) The real thing is quality. No matter how a cabinet sounds, if it won't stay together through the use you intend to give it, it nothing else matters. Thats why we build using wood instead of cardboard. Going of course, but not really. Differences like use of Birch plywood (a standard in quality cabinets) versus MDF (commonly called particle board) matter. Ply will generally last longer, and will weigh less. You often see good cabinets from Marshall or Fender that are 40 years old and still chugging along.

 

If you put all this together, a well known manufacturer with a decent reputation is usually a better for people that don't know what to look for. Get a well made cabinet that is made of good materials. Inside, you want speakers that give you the volume and sound you want, remembering that size is not a great indicator. If you don't know what this tech talk really means, then buy from a known company and use your ears, remembering that few specs are important compared to what your ears tell you. Lastly, buy with your ears, not your eyes. Some companies make nice looking gear meant to appeal at low prices, but often they are not good investments.

 

Sorry this got so long. Too many things to consider to condense it much.

[DeepEnd]

Specs don't mean much of anything' date=' and sorry that isn't helping you. Speaker size doesn't tell you much of anything. Folks will tell you bass needs 10" for punch, or 18" for bottom end. How big is the speaker in your favorite headphones or earpods? I bet they have plenty of bass. Where you get performance is from using the right speaker in an appropriate cabinet which comes from knowing Thiel Small (TS) parameters. Reputable manufacturers know this and try to do a good job. . . .[/quote']

The transducers in a pair of headphones also don't need to work in a large volume of air. A typical adult ear canal has a volume of 1 cc. Compare that to a 3X4X5 meter room with a volume of 60,000,000 cc. And Thiele Small parameters only apply to a sealed or ported cab, typically a bass cab, and even then to bass frequencies. Put a speaker in an open back cab like a good many guitar cabs or combos and you can ignore all that. "The right speaker" has the frequency response, power handling, and more importantly the price the amp manufacturer wants.

[Axisplayer]

Yea, I forget that some people might have a use for an open back cabinet because I see so few of them. TS parameters have always been a consideration for me because I only use closed back, sealed cabs. And if you have only one cabinet for you guitar amp, then TS should matter to you also, unless you don't need any bass. I guess folks with open back cabs don't need bass, but if I can't palm mute and feel things vibrate, I don't have the right cabinet, designed with TS parameters in mind. To each his own.

 

Headphone transducers may not have to move much air, but that wasn't the point. They reproduce bass quite well. Once the sound is made and can be sent to the PA, size of the room means nothing. If it makes enough noise to mic, its job is done. The days of amps needing to fill a room with sound are gone.

 

As to price of the speaker determining what the mfg wants, he didn't ask about that. He asked what specs matter to him. The right speaker is the right speaker. What a manufacturer thinks is important doesn't matter. You PUT the right speaker into the cabinet, if they didn't do it right at the factory.

[WRGKMC]

If you haven't see many open backed cabs then you've lead a sheltered life.

 

Most guitar cabs are far from being tuned from any parameters. Most of your vintage cabs were built by ear. Guys like Jim Marshall first made an 8X12 cab for the Who and when they eventually figured they were too big to move they ripped them in half. There was absolutely no cab tuning involved. It was a matter of weight, convenience and being able to fit them into moving vans. Amps has EQ's built in to accommodate whatever cab and speaker was being used and any kind of cab tuning was in reaction to a poor design that had too little or too much resonance.

 

Hi Fi, PA and Bass cabs are a totally different story. Those typically need to be tuned to provide maximum bass response below 200Hz and the cab must have the right air volume to match the speakers resonant frequency and/or be ported properly so the ported bass waves are in phase with the direct. Many of these tuned cabs will either be designed for Full Ranged speakers, have crossovers to feed the frequencies to different drivers or the cabs will be designed for a frequency range and you'd use several different sizes to build a full range system.

 

Most combo guitar amps use what's called an open infinite baffle which allow relatively flat frequency and even pitch levels in a small package.

The back waves are canceled by the half waves produced by the baffle and sides of the cab.

 

Open backed cabs have several important advantages over closed backed.

 

First is the weight. Any working musician who gigs regularly can appreciate how he feels after moving his gear, before and after a performance. Having the energy to play well is usually preferred to a busted gut just moving the gear and if you can move the gear in a single trip or two there's less chance of being robbed by low life scum who target Bozo musicians who leave their gear unattended.

 

Second, with an open backed cab you can play smaller stages and have no need for monitors. Open backed cabs typically get placed in line with the drummer and he hears the speakers from the back of the cab.

 

Third, many think open backed cabs are low volume and thin sounding. They obviously lever played through amps like Fender or Marshall Twins, Vox AC30 or AC100 rig, Any number of 4X10 designs like a Tweed Bassman, Ampeg VT-40, Music Man HD-130, Fender Super 6,

 

Marshall, Mesa, Road King, Matchless and others have made 4X12 open and semi open backed cabs. Some manufactures are actually using computer models now to factor in the changes the frequencies open backed cabs produce and building custom sized and adjustable ports

 

With closed backed, a cabs placed side by side with a drummer you may only hear some weak bass from the side of the cab or what's bouncing off a back wall. If you play with a drummer who tends to drift all over the place with his tempo, its likely because he cant hear the other instruments properly and you wind up playing tag all night trying to keep in tempo. An open backed cab can do allot to fix that even if monitors are used.

 

The only way he could hear the full frequency on a closed back is to place the cab far enough in back of him which puts your sound at the back of the stage and even later getting to the audience which means greater dispersion. If you mic a drummer the amp can bleed into his mics. Best solution with closed back is to mic everyone and everyone use stage monitors which again means hauling more gear or opting for an expensive in ear system.

 

Most working bands know the clubs they will play in, how much room they have on stage and more importantly how much they get paid to haul gear and play all night. For me I've played professionally enough where setting up and breaking down gear has gotten real old. The difference between using a PA for Vocals only and having to haul a big system so you can mic everything plus run all the extra wiring for monitors is a major ball buster. If its a smaller club where I can get by with two main cabs and one monitor for stage singers I'd much rather cut down my setup and breakdown time by a couple of hours. I can use an open backed can and the open back reflects off the back stage and everyone on stage and in the audience can hear it

 

I love using my big closed back amps too. I'm luckily enough to live in that has many Ice Houses which only serve low alcohol drinks and food. Some can hold up to 1000 people and are often located on larger lots which allow for loud bands to play unrestricted. You can use your bigger closed backed cabs and actually sound good in those places if you can deal with the sound issues which are often loaded with natural reverb reflection so you can at least leave that reverb petal at home.

[Axisplayer]

I have owned Twins, Supers, Boogies and others and they don't work for me. I understand sound, weight, design, and labor issues. I performed for 40 years and owned a sound and light company for the last 10 years before retirement. We did shows from Vegas to Miami to Montreal and in between. Every show got full treatment from starting with Spectrafoo analysis in the room, to selecting best mics and locations for each of the usual 30+ mics on stage. Things like amount of gear to move, individual monitors and/or IEMs, drummers needing 12-15 channels, and determining which single speaker in a 4x12 to mic was a normal day whether a show for 5000 or 100. Guess we work differently.

[DeepEnd]

Headphone transducers take advantage of the small size of the ear canal. The same transducer couldn't reproduce full range sound in a room.

 

The OP asked "I wonder what specs would you go for when it comes to guitar cabs?" Personally I'd look at three specs: price, weight and power handling. IMHO those specs should matter to the OP as well. Beyond that, amps have EQ controls for a reason.

[samal50]

From what I understand tube isn't well liked in the bassist community as they are heavy?

 

Had no idea mics had tubes as well. Are these vocal mics?

[samal50]

The Simmons DA350 drum amp is 350 watts with an 1100 watts peak. Does that mean its wattage "may" go up to 1100?

[samal50]

So only some hybrids have actual tube in them? It shouldn't be called a hybrid then if it didn't, right? Isn't a hybrid a cross between solid state and tube? I've looked into the Peavey 6505 Piranha head as it is considered a hybrid:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/6505Piranha--peavey-6505-piranha-20-watt-micro-head

 

and its cab:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/6505PirCab--peavey-6505-piranha-cabinet-25-watt-1x8-inch-cabinet

 

It's only 20 watts, but is this actually louder than my Peavey Rage 258, which is 25 watts, solid state, though? I've never owned a tube amp so that's why I'm asking questions. Is the Piranha still considered a "practice amp" or it can hold its own for live shows as well? Could it compete with a 400 watt 4x10 bass amp rig and a drummer as well? I think one of the threads I started, one person there mentioned that a 15 watt tube guitar amp can hold its own with a bassist with a 300 watt 4x10 bass rig?

[Mr.Grumpy]

From what I understand tube isn't well liked in the bassist community as they are heavy?

It's a matter of personal preference. Many bass players LOVE the 'tube tone' and gladly put up with the extra expense of purchase and the extra weight of moving them. The most powerful tube bass amps are 300 or 400 watts, if you want more power, then multiple tube amps have to be "slaved" together.

 

Some other players like the cleaner (in general) more hi-fi tone of a solid state amplifier, but with careful design a solid-state amp can sound fairly close to a tube amp.

 

The Simmons DA350 drum amp is 350 watts with an 1100 watts peak. Does that mean its wattage "may" go up to 1100?

This is what I was talking about. Peak power means the amp can output 1100 watts for a very brief period of time - maybe a fraction of a second. There are electronic devices in amplifiers called filter capacitors that can store an electric charge, and if there is an especially loud passage, the amplifier can output that 1100 watts, but the energy is being supplied by the filter caps, once they are discharged the power's not available and if the loud input signal is still present, the amp will start clipping/distorting. The 350 watt rating is the "continuous" power rating, that means the amplifier's power supply can provide that power on a continuous basis.

[DeepEnd]

The Simmons DA350 drum amp is 350 watts with an 1100 watts peak. Does that mean its wattage "may" go up to 1100?

Mr. Grumpy has covered this extremely well and thoroughly. I'll simply add that, for most instruments, you don't necessarily need vast amounts of continuous power. Something like an organ or a metal guitar where you have a continuous wall of sound is an exception. But for, say, drums, the signal contains a lot of "transients," or momentary loud signals. That's what I was talking about with tube amps having "headroom." But transient power, "peak power," or "music power" is 1. hard to measure consistently and 2. easily abused by unscrupulous manufacturers. To be safe, look at continuous or "RMS" power first.

[1001gear]

This powerful.

 

[video=youtube;Jv290-Vx_3c]

[samal50]

I'm still curious if the Peavey 6505 Piranha hybrid (20 watts) is louder than my Peavey Rage 258 (trans-tube, 25 watts)? I'm trying to figure out what these specs mean on the back of my Peavey Rage 258:

 

25 Watts

 

14.14V RMS

 

8 OHMS

 

-----------------

 

120 VAC

 

60 Hz

 

50 Watts

 

Why does it say 50 Watts too, when this is marketed as 25 watts? What's this all about?