First time purchase of PA System (need advice)

[keenanboianghu]

Not sure if this is the right forum... but hoping someone can help. I'm a vocalist and drummer, and I want to get a PA system for these uses (mic'd up). I was looking at the Yamaha MGP16x mixer and two Yamaha DSR112's with a DSR118w sub. Can anyone recommend other options that would total $2500 or less (used)? The reason I need to be so loud is to be on the same level as my guitar amp which is a peavey 6505 (120w) running through one Mesa OS rectifier 4x12 (280w). I usually run the amp at volume 4 so that I can get a good tone without blowing out my eardrums. Any advice for a first time purchaser of a PA system would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Keenan.

[Drummer44]

FWIW, you might get more, and more useful, response in the proaudio (Live Sound and Production) forum...

 

-D44

[WRGKMC]

Yamaha makes good stuff. I'm not a big fan of 12's for PA however. I run 4X12 cabs and 100W heads and I'll take 15's and horns any day. Loudness isn't the issue. You could easily keep up with a 500W system for vocals. Its the footprint size of the PA cabs that's important. Folded 15's and horns produce better lows and a bigger sound. This is especially true playing out. 12's sound like megaphonescompared to larger guitar amps and no matter how loud they are they just sound small. Vocals need the help of the larger diameter woofers to keep up with the cabinet thump of the guitar, and the bass response of the kick and the boom of the bass.

 

The 18 sub would help out is you're using a pair, one under each 12 cab. A single cab has a placement issue Your musicians and drummer are center stage. You cant place it back of the musicians and unless you have a raised stage you cant place it in front of the band.

 

I do own an older pair of Passive Yamaha's. I put better speakers in them long ago so they could handle more power and love the sound I get from them. I do have other cabs for tops and bottom's but I could get by with just the one pair when using my Marshall half stack.

 

My buddy had a complete Yamaha setup too. They had passive monitors and powered mixer. It did OK live but they used additional subs and power heads, crossover etc when micing a band. I run a pair of crown 1100's and a peavey 500 which gives me about 2600W total. I can mic a band easily enough and do pretty good in a medium sized club. I'd prefer to have a pair of cabs with 2X15's and horns vs what I'm using now but I really have no need to upgrade at this point.

 

The powered cabs make it allot easier to setup and run a PA. You don't need to haul a heavy rack unit with heads and effects. The power rating of many should be looked at skeptically however. They base their wattage ratings on a single frequency pumped until it begins to clip. The difference between that and running a full frequency signal with vocals and a whole band is not the same. The system may boast 1300w but in reality you may only get to use half that much before you get clipping in bass frequencies. Bass needs allot of power to be heard. Bass amps wattages are often 10X higher then a guitar amp.

 

Yamaha is one company that is better at giving you realistic numbers so you have that going for you. You may be able to push 800W vocal power only without becoming distorted. Full band? Its not going to happen with 12's.

 

Personally, I'd forget the 18's and get a pair of DSR215. These are easy to setup. Two cabs are easier to haul then two sets. Having 2 15's in a cab produces about the same volume levels as using 3 separate cabs because the way the cab resonance of two speakers are combined. You should be able to mic a full band for up to a medium club size and sound great.

 

With either, you still probably cant do it all for $2500. You have to take into account, the cables, mics, mic stands. You haven't mentioned monitors either. All that can easily add up to another grand or more even if you go cheap.

 

So again, I come back to a pair of powered 15's DXR15 http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMDXR15

Forget the subs and buy good monitors. Not sure why you'd need 14 channels. Drummers think they have to have every drum and cymbal miced up and its just not the case. You can easily mix a set live with 3 or 4 mics.

 

All those mics being setup, adjusted, the broken down is Way too time consuming and yields little benefits. A kick, Snare/high hat and overhead will capture enough sound to feed a PA just fine. Maybe a mic between toms.

 

If you're playing a really big venue you want to rent a system and sound man anyway. This is why most bands buy systems that are good up to medium venues, easy to haul and set up quickly. The work needed to set up a big system just doesnt pay for itself when you consider the labor involved. Playing live is about profitability vs hours worked. The extra hours needed to set up a larger system and haul four cabs is a PITA. I know because I have a large system. Unless you're playing big rooms you cant use the high power stuff anyway. Small rooms cause too much feedback and smaller rehearsal rooms you're lucky if you can push a few hundred watts without major feedback.

 

So I come right back to my original statement. Go for a big footprint by using larger speakers and get good monitors so you have more coverage. Club owners will probably love you for it too. 15's for vocals is needed for lows to match the bass and kick. you just don't get those form a 12"

 

If you were using small combos with 10" speakers, a bass amp with a pair of 10's the PA cabs with 12's will balance out. Using metal rig with 100W tube head and 4X12 cab you'll be stomping all over the vocals even if its turned up because the footprint of the 4X12" cab is like 48" of speaker surface area which is 3X higher then the vocals. You want just the opposite to sound balanced and have the vocals up front. Its not just about speaker efficiency. Tone is in the cab size. Projection over distance is in the cab design and horns.

 

Yamaha is good. I don't know the details of your situation but I do own allot of gear. Like I said I run two 15' cabs, two 18" two 10" plus horns and I'm able to get a balance on my Marshall 100W and 1960 cab, and a Fender 50W and 4X10 cab, both run about 1/2 power. Again, its not a matter of loudness as it is about proportion.

 

My vocals are proportioned to the guitar and bass cabs. If I only had 12's I'd have to crank them up and they'd simply sound like megaphones in comparison to the guitar cabs footprint size. I could do ok If I were using small guitar combo's using 10's easily enough, but not the big stuff.

 

Just my 2 cents but that's just what my 50+ years experience has taught me.