Jump to content

Trying to find the right amp for me. Vox, Fender.


ryanward84@gmail.com

Recommended Posts

  • Members

I am looking for an amp to play in a band with a loud drummer. I'm gong for a clean, chimey, sparkley tone a bit like Johnny Marr in the Smiths, Tom Verlaine & Richard Lloyd from Television, but also with some overdriven amp tones for leads as I am not a big pedal user.

 

Would an AC30 get me there or a Fender? I'm on a budget of around $500 - 700.

 

There are quite a few used amps for sale locally around that price range including Vox AC30cc2, Fender Hot Rod Deville 4x10 and 2x12, Fender Super Reverb Reissue, Fender 75 1x15 combo, 80's Fender Concert head, 60's Fender Bandmaster head, Peavey Delta Blues combo.

 

I can use a head with a friends 2x15 Bassman cab but a combo would be much more convenient.

 

Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 52
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Members

Johnny Mar used Mostly Twins. His gear setups are here. http://www.smithsonguitar.com/2008/12/johnny-marrs-gear.html

 

TELEVISION'S GEAR Richard Lloyd still plays the same '61 Stratocaster with jumbo frets that he played on Marquee Moon and Adventure, although he takes a '62 reissue Strat and Tele on the road. On the new album's "Rhyme", he played a rare black f-hole Gretsch. Lloyd tends a stable of vintage Fender amps, including a '50 Deluxe, a '52 Pro, a '55 Tremolux, and a '56 Princeton. He also uses a '59 Ampeg Jet, a Vibraverb reissue, and a '65 Supro. Live, he relies on Vox AC30s: "You can change the current wherever you are without a transformer, so they're good the world over, and they have a nice high-end bite." Save for a few dinosaur pedals, Lloyd avoids effects, citing the dangers of "processors that make your guitar sound like Velveeta." And though he's a diehard fan of amp distortion, he admits, "I'm always fighting to get a combination that won't really distort the tonality of the guitar, but will just give you the edge you're looking for."

 

Tom Verlaine cracks up when I pop the gear question: "I'm gonna make up really great lies for you," he howls. "Fuzztones and Marshalls!" Actually, Tom is a longtime Fender Jazzmaster player: "They're really problematic tuning-wise, but they were the cheapest guitars in the '70s, so I'm used to them." Stray cats include a Stratocaster, a Harmony 12-string, a Vox with built-in fuzz, vibrator and tuner, a "Kay thing", an Al Caiola Epiphone, and a Monkees Gretsch.

 

In concert, Verlaine plays through either Fender Super Reverbs (also used on Marquee Moon) or Vox AC30s, but for Television he went with a Valvetronics tube amp made by the group's amp technician Robert Darby, although Super Reverbs, an Ampeg Jet, and a Silvertone amp all made their way into the mix. For effects, he brought his usual "trunkload of total garbage stuff", which includes Echoplexes used as preamps, "just to goose it up." Verlaine's full-bodied tone starts with the strings: What began as a way to keep his Jazzmaster in tune has become a wide proposition—.015s or .014s on the top to .054s down low.

 

 

No one can make decisions for you in the end. I always use the analogy of gear as simply being a tool. You can hand a hammer to an amateur and he cant pound a nail in straight without bending it, no less build a dog house. Hand it to a pro and he'll build you a mansion.

 

Same goes for gear. You can hand the best amp and guitar to a beginner and it will sound like fingernails on a chalk board. Give a cheap piece of crap guitar and amp to a pro and he'll blow your socks off with it. Best you can do is target what you want to look at and then go try them out. From there you have to use it for a couple of years just to become familiar with what you can and cant do with them.

 

An AC 30 is a great amp for jangle and/or drive. It eats tubes quickly however. Fenders are cool but you have to get the right amp for the right power ranges. I've played with drummers who could shatter cymbals they hit them so hard. Never had a problem keeping up with them using my old Bassman 50W or 50W Marshal plexi.

 

For a 30W amp I'd need really efficient speakers to get enough clean tones. If you buy solid state you want to get a higher power rating then a tube amp. Example, my 100W Valvsate Marshall sounds best running at about 50% up. That's a match for my 50W bassman or Music Man amp running 33% Tube amps are rated by how much clean, undistorted wattage they can produce which means you often have an additional 30~50% additional gain there once the amp begins to saturate. You can turn a SS amp all the way up many time with no distortion but its sweet spot for tone may only be half power so running a 100W head at 50W is fairly normal. Getting a 30W SS may have a sweet spot at 15W and a 30W tube may be sweet at 25W.

 

You just have to try them to know what works for your style and most importantly your specific guitar.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

They use the Vox AC30 and various Fenders such as the Twin Reverb, Pro Reverb, Vibroluxe, and Deluxe Reverb. Johnny Marr also uses a Roland Jazz Chorus 120 and Mesa Boogie Mk I and Mk III sometimes. If you're looking at convenience, both Hot Rod Devilles come in at about 50 lbs., 15-20 lbs. lighter than the other Fender and Vox combos. Peavey makes a great amp but I'm not sure you'll get the sound you want without a speaker swap at minimum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

first tell the drummer to turn down, all the band members will thank you in the long run :)

 

an ac30 is a hell of an amp, damn i'm lovin it, but its ear bleeding loud, so in a small rehearsal space like ours you don't get it louder than 2 or the other band members will kill you, it still sounds nice but its not the same if you can crank it...

 

for your situation any amp can fit or wouldn't, mostly its depending on your taste and how you use it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Fender Mustang amps cover a lot of ground and are within your price range.

 

The Mustang IV is a 2x12 combo with lots of power and does a nice Twin Reverb (without the weight or any tube related hassles) but is a bit bulky. The Mustang III is a single 12 combo with the same versatile preamp and puts out 100 watts.

 

http://intl.fender.com/en-CA/series/mustang/mustang-iv-v2-120v/

 

http://intl.fender.com/en-CA/series/mustang/mustang-iii-v2-120v/

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
The only thing stopping me is somehow feeling like I'm missing out by not getting a hand wired amp...

 

We'll see...

 

Don't buy into that hand made crap. Its Pure Voodoo BS used to sucker ignorant people into spending more for their product. Hand wiring does not equate to a better build or better sound. Its simply an incompetent used car salesman hook used by non electronic educated salesmen which has absolutely no basis in reality.

 

You can have just as many bad wiring jobs done by hand as you can assembly line built. In fact the quality of assembly line, robotically built with computers has a much lower failure rate then anything man can do by hand today.

 

I'll also add Tube amps are a dead technology and has been for a long time. Guitar amps are one of the few exceptions but even there your big mass produced amps are not being built by highly qualified techs any more. Any Technician worth his salt would have bailed out of that industry many decades ago (like I did) Unless he just cant measure up in the newer technology and likes working for minimum wage.

 

What It really comes down to the specific amp design and component quality that makes for tone. Yes you can spend $5000 on a hand built amp, but $4500 of that is labor and markup. You can gut the same amp for $500 that's assembly line built and do an blind A/B comparison and not be able to tell the difference.Yo0u can probably spend another $250 on upgrading it and blow the doors off that same boutique amp.

 

Of course if you're objective is to simply support techs like myself by bankrolling their business, then I'll be happy to bank your money if it makes you feel good. I just cant be as devious as others and tell you hand wiring does a dam thing to make the amp sound better. Best advice is get past that fantasy and focus on the quality of the completed work instead of how that work instead of who or what got the amp built.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Don't buy into that hand made crap. Its Pure Voodoo BS used to sucker ignorant people into spending more for their product. Hand wiring does not equate to a better build or better sound. Its simply an incompetent used car salesman hook used by non electronic educated salesmen which has absolutely no basis in reality.

 

You can have just as many bad wiring jobs done by hand as you can assembly line built. In fact the quality of assembly line, robotically built with computers has a much lower failure rate then anything man can do by hand today.

 

I'll also add Tube amps are a dead technology and has been for a long time. Guitar amps are one of the few exceptions but even there your big mass produced amps are not being built by highly qualified techs any more. Any Technician worth his salt would have bailed out of that industry many decades ago (like I did) Unless he just cant measure up in the newer technology and likes working for minimum wage.

 

What It really comes down to the specific amp design and component quality that makes for tone. Yes you can spend $5000 on a hand built amp, but $4500 of that is labor and markup. You can gut the same amp for $500 that's assembly line built and do an blind A/B comparison and not be able to tell the difference.Yo0u can probably spend another $250 on upgrading it and blow the doors off that same boutique amp.

 

Of course if you're objective is to simply support techs like myself by bankrolling their business, then I'll be happy to bank your money if it makes you feel good. I just cant be as devious as others and tell you hand wiring does a dam thing to make the amp sound better. Best advice is get past that fantasy and focus on the quality of the completed work instead of how that work instead of who or what got the amp built.

 

 

So what do you think specifically about the models I mentioned? The Super reverb Reissue and Vox ACcc2?

 

How does their amp design and quality stand up to say a 60's blackface or Made in England Vox?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I've worked on many vintage Vox's, in fact the shop I worked at had a ton or old ones stacked up in piles because they blew up so often and no one wanted to pay to have them repaired so they just abandoned them. The reissues are much better builds then the original ones using modern components.

 

As far as a Blackface, I've owned one since 1967, original owner. I've blow the screen resistors several times due to my own ignorance as a kid running the impedance too high. Compared to a Silver face which I also owned (I ran a black and silver together for about 5 years) They were identical in every way and every component except for the face plate. Those Bassman heads had great designs taken right out of the radio engineers handbook. Transformers are excellent and that's the main reason so many have survived.

 

Most of your Fender amps using 6L6 tubes are very similar. They vary with things like reverb and tremolo but the components are all about the same. You learn to work on one and you can fix most of them. There are a couple of different circuit versions of course. They basically change between the brownface blackface and CBS eras with a gradual changeover to some dogs like the red knob series in the 70/80/ and back up in quality to the present day.

 

Your bottom end SS Fenders are all Asian or Mexican made now, but they are past the early Red Knobs and have come up with some solid designs even in the cheapest amps. The tube series are the same circuits they've always used. The only difference is many of the components are improved. They have better quality caps, resistors. Transformers are built the same. If anything the pots may have plastic wipers instead of the original metal type which last forever, but that's not a huge deal. You'll still get a dozen years trouble free operation.

 

I'm not much for amps with built in effects like the Mustang series either. Computer logic built into an amplifier puts you completely out of business when they go down. If you have separate effects and they go down you can still play through the amp. If the amp goes down you still have your effects to plug into another amp. Repairs on complex amps can only be done at the factory which means the amp is scraped due to factory repair costs. A tube and even many SS amps can be repaired by most competent techs so long as there are no oddball/unique parts.

 

The bigger differences between vintage and modern is the speakers. Fender used a couple of different vendors and kept them bidding against each other. Most were based on Jensen designs but you could also buy top notch speakers like Altec and JBL which doubled the quality and price of the amps. (another sales tactic - demo an amp with the good speakers and sell them an amp with the budget speakers at the same cost) The speaker choices today are fantastic. You can take any mediocre amp and make it sound much better with a speaker swap out (just like you can improve guitars with pickup changes)

 

As far as the Super Reverb goes - Its a wonderful amp but for the price they sell I'd go for Fenders Holy Grail of 4X10 amps which is the Bassman Brownface Reissue. Much better circuit design then the Black or Silver Faced amps because the rectifier tube gives it the right sage and saturation. Its got to have the Alnico Jensens though. I've heard some with ceramic speakers and it kills its tone.

 

My buddy had one of the originals and any place he played the sound men loved that amp because it was just so versatile micing and mixing. I think They make a bandmaster version too. Probibly has reverb and or Tremolo - but that stuff eats up headroom and wattage. The Bassman was just meat and potatoes The reissues have a effect loop for adding any kind of reverb or effect you need, the originals were often modified to have it added.

 

Bassman_Tweed_reissue.jpg

 

bassman2.jpg

 

The other 4X10 amp I loved was the Ampeg VT40 which was a killer 65W combo that simply cranked.

 

ampeg-vt-40-top-load-4x10-combo-60-65-watt-amplifier-vintage-amp-e887c7fc6eaf74f688d4a86cb95fb63a.jpg

 

Music Man was A Leo Fender design too. Johnny Winter used them for years. I have a 65W head and while I'm not a big fan of Hybrids. You want clean headroom it will definitely get you there.

 

284736d1333241420-vintage-gear-pictures-a_mm410_65c.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Don't buy into that hand made crap. Its Pure Voodoo BS used to sucker ignorant people into spending more for their product. Hand wiring does not equate to a better build or better sound. Its simply an incompetent used car salesman hook used by non electronic educated salesmen which has absolutely no basis in reality...

 

The point to point wiring in the 'hand made' amplifiers makes them much easier to work on and also avoids the problems associated with printed circuit boards.

 

The most common problems I run across with the Hod Rod series of Fender amplifiers are bad solder connections and the input jacks coming loose from the circuit board. In both cases, repair involves removing the circuit board from the chassis - not something easily done in the field.

 

The old Fender amplifiers hardly ever have problems with the jacks and replacing the fuse and a screen resistor due to a short circuit in an output tube only takes a few minutes.

 

As WRGKMC often points out, the use of heat generating tubes and printed circuit boards with solid state components can often be a source of problems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

^^^^ It does come down to pricing when you factor that in too. You have to compare apples to apples. When someone says hand built, I consider that one guy building the entire amp. Fender amps had point to point but they were semi automated assembly line builds. You'd have much of that work going down a conveyor belt and one guy doing nothing but sticking pots in the chassis with wires attached, another guy soldering in the turret board connections, another installing a transformer, etc etc. Its hand built but factory built just like an auto assembly line. The untrained people got good at sticking a transformer in a chassis and bolting it in so quality would go up through repetition. Circuit boards can be built 100% robotically and the hands on is essentially plugging the various power connections in and checking operations. The quality can be very high in these builds because the machines building them have failure sensors that alert people when they make errors.

 

Again its a component quality factor vs profit there too. My Marshall for example is one of these kinds of builds but Its and excellent build with excellent components. I don't see allot of those amps being sold for parts. Others, especially the ones that are poorly built are seen by techs like myself and Onelife all the time. They have component quality issues by design.

 

I've seen plenty of horribly built point to point stuff in my day too. Back in the 60's to 70's a great deal of gear coming from Asia was all hand built and the quality of its was the absolute pits. I don't even know if they knew rosin was. I think they melted down Yen to solder the connections and there were so many bad solder joints you'd have a heart attack when you found one that actually worked.

 

That's why when people start doing the Voodoo Grooving over vintage gear I may sound like I'm flip flopping. There was some extremely good stuff and stuff that looked good on the outside but could be complete crap inside. Allot of that has gone away with newer imports though. Manufacturers have allot of experience contracting work to be done and when these factories botch builds they have to make good on the bad units so it pays them to hire competent people and train them to build well. They also learn by mistakes. If they get back allot of amps with bad jacks, they fix that problem in the next piece of gear they build. They dong go overboard, they still pinch pennies but they do enough to fix the gear within its Priceline classification.

 

 

Then there's the cost factor vs profitability. You may wind up paying double or triple for a point to point amp because of the labor involved. Tone and operation are identical to a PCB amp. If you have some technical skill, swapping a broken jack or pot is not that tough to do and only costs a couple of dollars.

 

If spending $1500 for an amp just to have better jacks that cost $5 each (or spending $25 to have a tech do it) then that's your choice. Personally I'll take the savings and invest it in something else. I'll likely get tired of that amp after 5 years and get something else before it ever breaks down.

 

Of course if you're a professional that tours and you need gear that's super durable, then going for super solid gear might be an option, but you have to bring in the streetwise part of being a musician there. I've only bought one amp new in 50 years which was my Marshall head. Everything else I bought either used or showroom discount. I pride myself in finding great deals at well below retail. Musicians who play out are always bartering gear, I'll trade you this for awhile with some cash, some guys on hard times so you buy his gear so he can feed the kids, you sell a musician a guitar for less then what you pair or even loan it to them when they are having hard times getting enough cash together for an instrument etc etc.

 

The music business in that way is a brotherhood. Many of your star musicians trade gear so they can have new sounds happening and they get to know other players values that way. Don't get me wrong, it can be risky when you're dealing with armatures and addicts. Make it a policy not to loan gear to people who cant pay you back when its damaged or lost, but an honest guy needing a hand up, its your obligation to help them out when you can.

 

Learned that back in my High School days. I helped a guy out leaning some songs and within 5 years he had a hit album and I was backing up his band opening up for him. He was probably the most unlikely person you'd eve expect to be successful. They remember too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

As t_e_l_e mentioned, the AC30 is a lot of amp. Why not look into the AC15? On the Fender side, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you look at the Bassbreaker 15 combo: http://shop.fender.com/en-US/guitar-amplifiers/vintage-pro-tube/bassbreaker-15-combo/2262000000.html#productsPerRow=3&prefn1=subtype&prefv1=Combos&srule=price-low-to-high&start=1. 1X12 40 lbs. If you need more Oomph, there's an XLR output for patching it into your PA. You can get one brand new for around $650.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
I am looking for an amp to play in a band with a loud drummer. I'm gong for a clean, chimey, sparkley tone a bit like Johnny Marr in the Smiths, Tom Verlaine & Richard Lloyd from Television, but also with some overdriven amp tones for leads as I am not a big pedal user.

 

Would an AC30 get me there or a Fender? I'm on a budget of around $500 - 700.

 

There are quite a few used amps for sale locally around that price range including Vox AC30cc2, Fender Hot Rod Deville 4x10 and 2x12, Fender Super Reverb Reissue, Fender 75 1x15 combo, 80's Fender Concert head, 60's Fender Bandmaster head, Peavey Delta Blues combo.

 

I can use a head with a friends 2x15 Bassman cab but a combo would be much more convenient.

 

Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

 

 

 

The Vox AC30 custom classic sounds not much like the original Vox amps of the 60's. The beauty of the old Vox amps has a lot to do with the speakers, and the fact the old ones ran on the cusp of blowing up. :D Just kidding.

 

The DeVille 4x10 is pretty damn loud, and awkward to haul. I owned a 2x12, and sold it.

 

Nothing wrongs with a Super Reverb, or a Deluxe Reverb either. The DRRI is a fav of mine. You will push these amps with your fav OD. Trust me on one nice OD pedal, even with a DeVille. Even Johnny Marr has used a few pedals along the way.

 

Johnny Marr was used a lot of Fender guitars, like Jaguar, but he also used a Rickenbacker 330. One of the keys to getting a great tone with a Rickenbacker is a treble booster and a touch of compression. maybe a Janglebox http://www.janglebox.com/ would be just what the doctor ordered.

 

Good Luck. Hope this helps

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I played a Super Reverb Reissue yesterday. That thing is loud and clean and the tone is beautiful. I imagine it will take pedals well, though I won't plan to use more than a little chorus, compression and overdrive.

 

It was in great shape with just a tiny bit of noise from a couple of the pots. Had the 4 Jensen Alnicos made in Italy and Electro Harmonix 6L6's. The price is right and I think this is my amp barring a sudden change of mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Well you won't have any trouble keeping up with your drummer if that's the direction you want to go! The only drawback for me on that amp is its weight (& bulk). Hopefully you won't have to cart it around that much.

I have a friend who owns a quad reverb (basically a twin with 4 12's). That thing weighs probably around 100lbs & you need 2 people to load it since its so bulky...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...
  • Members

To follow up I got the Super Reverb Reissue and have been happy with it the last couple of months. I haven't had a lot of time to play but jammed with a drummer friend and was plenty loud at 3.5 to 4 on volume knob. I just picked up a Way Huge Red Llama MkII as an overdrive. It should arrive tomorrow and I'm excited to see how it interacts with the Super.

 

And yes, it is HEAVY!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Not everyone agrees with everything thats been said here. Point to point vs. printed circuit board. Both can be found with sh-ty workmanship. I'd take a point to point amp done right any day, for their easier to repair. There are companies that do the printed boards right. Tone King, Boogie, Zinky amps etc.

​Fender imo is one of the worst, using the cheapest parts and just enough transformer to get it working. (Not black faced fender amps) or early models. 60's

 

Many a musician complained about Fender amps and the (ICE pick) treble. Many sent out with sh-ty tubes. Remember the amplification happens within the Tube its self. I remember the Deluxe reverb re. sounded terrible until you changed the speaker to a alltone 1250 12" speaker with a tube tweak. I've yet to find a modern tube offering that overdrives like a vintage NOS offering.1950's to 62 GE, tungsol, amperex, mullard, bendix etc. digital amps? lets not go there for professional use. solid state? there's a few. the roland jazz chorus and the Lab Series did good.

 

​If you want a quality amplifier that's going to last you. be it point to point or printed circuit board (thick double sided) unlike ( Fenders wave soldered cheap stuff )

 

. its going to cost you. a couple grand or more. Been there done it all. Cry once and be done with it. Your better quality will be found with the small builders. Still tubes will be a issue. I've used JJ's and EH tubes with some success but they don't last long. NOS last ten times if not more. finding honest sellers is another topic all together.

 

​Learn how to use pedals! compressors, overdrives, boosts. then the time based effects chorus, delay, verb etc. Phasers / univibes wahs. fuzz. Above all this, learn to play. (unity gain)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...
  • Members
I am looking for an amp to play in a band with a loud drummer. I'm gong for a clean, chimey, sparkley tone a bit like Johnny Marr in the Smiths, Tom Verlaine & Richard Lloyd from Television, but also with some overdriven amp tones for leads as I am not a big pedal user.

 

Would an AC30 get me there or a Fender? I'm on a budget of around $500 - 700.

 

There are quite a few used amps for sale locally around that price range including Vox AC30cc2, Fender Hot Rod Deville 4x10 and 2x12, Fender Super Reverb Reissue, Fender 75 1x15 combo, 80's Fender Concert head, 60's Fender Bandmaster head, Peavey Delta Blues combo.

 

I can use a head with a friends 2x15 Bassman cab but a combo would be much more convenient.

 

Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...