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Speaker for Laney VC30 112: Fane F70?


boostpedal30

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I will be ordering the speaker soon, and probably from abroad (thomann.de), so I need the best opinion: a speaker that must be far better overall quality than the stock speaker (produced for Laney by the HH company) but also preserve the characteristics of the amp. The stock speaker is quite buzzy/muddy with overdrive. I considered Celestion creambacks, but I am of the opinion they will take away some of the shimmer from the amps sound. I don't want anything that willl darken it, adding some bottom end is welcome. Then there are celestion G12H30 anniversaries that are arguably very suitable as far as sound goes, but I think 30 watts will be inadequate: Laney uses 80 watters in new models. Finally Fane ascension F70 has been mentioned as a high quality speaker that will be more transparent than Celestions. I would appreciate if you find me something in the line of G12H30 that is at least 60-70 watts. Or else Fane is the option I am leaning toward. Finally I don't need the amp to get any louder, I am an apartment dweller, so maybe a lower efficiency speaker wil do better. Thanks a lot.

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Those amps are supposed to produce a British/Vox like tone. I'd think you have a couple of good options available.

Fane speakers were well liked by many players and used in allot of British amps because Fane was a British company.

The vintage Fane speakers are what many seek out. The company is supposed to have been rebuilt with many of the same employees so a new speaker may be just as good. You want to check the frequency response and SPL level specs. The stock HH speaker has a response of 80~5Khz. The 98db sensitivity isn't bad.

 

HH Invader Vintage 35 watts

Nominal diameter 12", 305mm

Power Rating 40W

Nominal impedance 8? and 16?

Sensitivity 98dB

Chassis type Pressed steel

Voice coil diameter 1.75", 44.5mm

Voice coil material Round copper

Magnet type Ceramic

Magnet weight 31oz, 0.88kg

Frequency range 85-5000Hz

Resonance frequency, Fs 103Hz

DC resistance, Re 5.4? & 11.78?

 

Since the amp has a Vox like character, I'd think a speaker that makes a Vox sound good would also make this amp sound good.

Vox used Alnico Blue Dogs to get their great sound. Those are limited to 15W however. Celestion make a gold version good up to 50W.

http://celestion.com/product/6/celestion_gold/ I'd think this might be a good match because the amps bright switch which produces some extreme ice pick tones would be tamed by the speakers natural high frequency roll off. The bottom is a little better then the stock speaker too.

 

The golds are very expensive however.

 

Other options might be the greenback Celestion or the Eminence red coat series. Either should produce some good British tones. If you're more into classic rock tones I'd think the Heritage Series G12H(55) would be a good option. http://celestion.com/product/25/heritage_series_g12h55/

 

If you want a bump is volume and want to keep the cost under $100 its hard to best the Red Coats http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/290-862-eminence-red-coat-the-wizard-specifications-45223.pdf

 

You first choice going with the Fane will likely be fine too. http://www.fane-acoustics.com/ They have 4 models to choose from. I'm a bit partial for the alnico but you have to be sure the extended magnet will fit in your combo cab so check the dimensions.

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thanks for taking the time... I think I may have problems with those alnico's getting too close to the tubes on their back. I heard if it got too close the magnet can mess with the functioning of the tube, so I don't think I will risk that. I also tend toward ceramics because I was told alnicos can sound a little thin with overdrive, which is not quite my taste. Other than that, my online observation is Alnicos sound warmer in general. Thanks again, I will check out your suggestions for sure.

One more thing: I suspects my HH speaker might just not be the invader. This is a new amp and I don't read Invader anywhere on the back.

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To my dismay Fane F70 sounds most strerile to me among the four Ascension speakers. anybody check out the sound samples I would appreciate http://www.fane-acoustics.com/. Alnicos are a problem because of amp design I guess, and F90 may be an overkill in terms of watts, but beyond that, it is promoted as more of a metal speaker,and my amp is a vintage voiced amp. Eminence wizard may just make my amp too trebly I believe, and the heritage series celestions, I am not sure about them, but they may dull out the sound I am afraid, this is a bright amp and I don't want to change that. Anybody with opinion on the above is very welcome to share. Like is there a particular Eminance red coat that may do the job, because I think the wizard is probably not exactly what I need...

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. . . Like is there a particular Eminance red coat that may do the job' date=' because I think the wizard is probably not exactly what I need...[/quote']

Based solely on frequency response graphs, the CV-65 or CV-75 might work. Of all their "Redcoat" speakers, those two have the least pronounced high end. Of course, the proof is in the listening.

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I took an interest in WGS et-65 and et-90, which appear to be warmer sounding than the Fane F70, and I located one et-65 in my place of residence. et-90 appears ideal and I am checking out european dealers to see if I can get one. So if you have opinions or knowledge on these WGSs, I would appreciate that you share.

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First, WGS speakers are generic copies of Celestions. I'd say why buy a copy when you can buy the real thing for about the same price.

Second, Magnetic fields affecting a tube is not likely to happen. If the magnet is close enough to the tube to effect it, the heat from the tube would be a bigger issue weakening the magnet or heating the cone suspension and warping it. Magnets can bend a beam, in fact electro magnets are used to control the beam in cathode ray tubes, but amp tubes don't project an electron beam like that. The magnet for a speaker has its field concentrated around the coil. Magnetic fields have nodes and do not radiate symmetrically around the magnet. You'd need some oddball circumstances to have the tube affected and if the tube was that close to the magnet, the heat would be a bigger issue.

 

The bigger problem as I said is physical space. The magnet may be too large for a small combo and stick out the back of the cab.

 

As far as your comment about alnicos sounding thin, its not the magnet that gives a speaker a thin sound, its the frequency response of the cone that does that, its material, cone stiffness. The difference between a ceramic and alnico speaker comes into play when they are driven hard. A ceramic magnet will stay clean as the power is increased and then it will have a sharp avalanche effect when the cone distorts which is considered to be un-harmonic and raspy sounding.

 

An alnico speaker will gradually begin to distort as its driven hard in a musically pleasant way producing complementary harmonics and overtones. Truth is, you when you use ceramic speakers, they are never driven to saturation anyway. Any drive you hear comes from the amp, not the speaker. The point of saturation in ceramic speakers is too close to the point of burning up the coil. The speakers db output flattens first and then you get to a narrow range of breakdown. If that level is maintained for very long you fry the coil if it doesn't pop like a fuse before it distorts. To prevent this, most amps that use ceramic speakers usually have a higher RMS wattage then an amp so you never get close to having any kind of actual speaker cone distortion. An alnico bucks the ac waveform before it gets to its maximum RMS value so it has a smoothing effect on transients that the ceramics have so they are considered to be warmer sounding. Again, that's only part of it. The cones frequency response curve will have more to do with whether it sounds warm or not. Any speaker that has the wrong response curve for the amp is going to sound bad.

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First, WGS speakers are generic copies of Celestions. I'd say why buy a copy when you can buy the real thing for about the same price.

Second, Magnetic fields affecting a tube is not likely to happen. If the magnet is close enough to the tube to effect it, the heat from the tube would be a bigger issue weakening the magnet or heating the cone suspension and warping it. Magnets can bend a beam, in fact electro magnets are used to control the beam in cathode ray tubes, but amp tubes don't project an electron beam like that. The magnet for a speaker has its field concentrated around the coil. Magnetic fields have nodes and do not radiate symmetrically around the magnet. You'd need some oddball circumstances to have the tube affected and if the tube was that close to the magnet, the heat would be a bigger issue.

 

The bigger problem as I said is physical space. The magnet may be too large for a small combo and stick out the back of the cab.

 

As far as your comment about alnicos sounding thin, its not the magnet that gives a speaker a thin sound, its the frequency response of the cone that does that, its material, cone stiffness. The difference between a ceramic and alnico speaker comes into play when they are driven hard. A ceramic magnet will stay clean as the power is increased and then it will have a sharp avalanche effect when the cone distorts which is considered to be un-harmonic and raspy sounding.

 

An alnico speaker will gradually begin to distort as its driven hard in a musically pleasant way producing complementary harmonics and overtones. Truth is, you when you use ceramic speakers, they are never driven to saturation anyway. Any drive you hear comes from the amp, not the speaker. The point of saturation in ceramic speakers is too close to the point of burning up the coil. The speakers db output flattens first and then you get to a narrow range of breakdown. If that level is maintained for very long you fry the coil if it doesn't pop like a fuse before it distorts. To prevent this, most amps that use ceramic speakers usually have a higher RMS wattage then an amp so you never get close to having any kind of actual speaker cone distortion. An alnico bucks the ac waveform before it gets to its maximum RMS value so it has a smoothing effect on transients that the ceramics have so they are considered to be warmer sounding. Again, that's only part of it. The cones frequency response curve will have more to do with whether it sounds warm or not. Any speaker that has the wrong response curve for the amp is going to sound bad.

 

I am sure you are right about most of that sir, I can't dare to disagree with you but on one issue: these WGS British invasion speakers have a serious fan base on the web, and many people who like them better than the celestions. I am impressed by what I heard, I may be mistaken, it is online listening and too many factors color the experience. In any case, if I gather more info confirming your point, I will just go for Fane. I couldn't find a high wattage celestion that I totally liked: those 25 watts greenbacks I like, but not the powerful creambacks. G12h30 anniversary is fine but I believe this amp needs more watts than that. I didn't like the heritage line, I felt it will dull out my amp. Alnico gold is great but it is altogether a new job to confirm that it will work fine on this amp, and that I am afraid to take on. Your contribution is much appreciated.

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I've heard many who like them too. It simply comes down to their specs if you can find them.

 

One thing you mentioned

I couldn't find a high wattage Celestion that I totally liked:
Has me questioning your quest. The amp is a 30W RMS amp which means the amp can put out a clean 30W and maybe a bit more driven depending on the tube type. So long as the speaker RMS wattage matches the amps RMS wattage you're safe from blowing it and will also produce the best response curves. You can go up in speaker wattage but you do get to a point where it can actually begin to work against you. High wattage speakers do have a minimum wattage needed to begin producing a full frequency response. This is usually in the 10~20% range or less of the speakers maximum.

 

The ideal range where a speaker produces the best frequency response, has the best string sensitivity and produces the highest DB levels is in the 50~75% wattage. If you take the Maximum amp wattage then add an additional 25% safety margin, that's as high as you need to go. You may even be fine up to double the rating but when you start getting into 100% and up an amp can suffer from sounding sterile and lacking string touch because the amp is unable to drive the speaker into its sweet spot. I'd recommend a speaker between 30~ 60W with that tube amp if you want to get the best dynamic response.

 

Loudness comes down to the SPL rating. SPL is an efficiency rating, much like Miles per gallon is for a car. The higher the DB level the more efficient the speaker is at converting electrical power into mechanical energy (electromagnet piston pushing air to make sound)

 

The other item is how accurately the speaker moves to recreate the waveform its being driven by. This is kind of like the focus setting on a camera. If the cone is lightweight and has a fast response it will duplicate every bump and overtone of the waveform (good or bad) a thick and/or stiff cone will not react quickly to transients and actually smooth them like a compressor does. Of course a thicker paper with a stiffer movement will likely handle bass better then a lighter paper with a looser suspension. The cones also affect the frequency curves as you likely know.

 

Which is best for your needs does depend on the guitar and pedals being used too. A humbucker will need a speaker with a stiffer cone and maybe some extra upper mids. A single coil usually has a wider frequency response and can sound spikey so a speaker with less upper mids may be a better match. If you use both types of pickups then you need a middle of the road speaker that handles both well.

 

The ideal response lets you run your amps EQ controls at 12:00. Then you can either boost or cut them to adjust the amp to the instrument, the room, musical composition etc. A bad choice of speakers may greatly limit your EQ options. If the speaker is overly bassy for example, you may wind up having to turn the bass knob all the way down and since the tone stack in amps overlap in frequencies it can affect your mid tones too.

 

There are ways to get the best speaker match for a given amp. It does require passing test tones through the head and using a Frequency analyzer to test what the amps frequency response actually is. You'd then chart the changes the EQ controls produce. Then you'd use that chart to target the best speaker for the job. This takes allot of guesswork out of the process (and sometimes allot of the fun gained by experimenting with different speakers)

 

This is what is done in Hi Fi gear where you want to achieve a very flat frequency response. Most Guitar amps however are not high fidelity. They sacrifice fidelity to produce a loud response and targeting the midrange frequencies well is often accomplished accidentally or through Good Enough methods. Music is often built around the sound instead of sound built around the music when it comes to guitars and players, low fidelity distortion is valued just as much as high fidelity cleans are. Having a good speaker match for the head should get you the best of both worlds. Finding that match quickly and economically is the key.

 

Don't know how much or any of this will actually help you make a decision. You seem to have a strong opinions on what you want to try so all I can say is roll the dice and go for it. Many including myself have spent allot of money testing out many different speakers. Its even tougher advising someone else when you're trying to do its over the internet and have no idea what that player considers to be his ideal tone. Back when I did repairs I could get a musician to play through the amp and describe what he liked and didn't. Targeting is needs were pretty simple after that.

 

Its too bad most music stores don't have a wall of speakers you can bring your amp in and test out. I have heard of a couple that did that but most brick and mortar stores cant afford those kinds of setups for customers. Online purchases are usually have the best pricing so you have to use a certain amount of blind faith buying what you think might be good. After you do buy a speaker it may take a few months playing to discover its strengths and weaknesses. Then when you get a different amp, the process begins all over again because each heads response is unique so each speaker choice is going to be unique.

 

If you're wise you learn all you can about the specs of gear so you can make informed decisions and not decisions based on passion or opinion. Unless you know some techs who can steer you in the right direction its all a gamble to whether a changes you make is actually and upgrade or a downgrade from the original stock parts.

 

Good luck on whatever you choose. Let us know after you have it up and running for awhile what you think about the tone changes. Others can learn from a good honest evaluations, whether it be good or bad.

 

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Some of that will surely be useful thank you, some is beyond my grasp at this point. I don't really have so strong opinions on what I want to try , trying to cancel my Fane F70 order from Germany actually. I was swayed my someone elses opinion on that one, but it doesn't work like that. I now think f70 and the et-90 (I actually found it at some european stores) has this too prominent upper mids (I don't strictly compare specs just intuition) that can get tiring, and actually will probably get honky with overdrive. They sound fine clean but I play 90 percent with some overdrive. I need an all around good speaker, I play a variety of guitars and pickups and genres (basically rock though). I am now thinking about this neo creamback. It is somewhat a shot into the dark, but its going to be lighter which is great, and will be some variety of greenback after all.

The thing with higher watts speaker is that the present stock celestion on vc 30 appears to be 80 watts.

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Someone tell me one thing: I understand a 30 watts speaker is fine for a 30 watts amp in general (athough it seems the ideal should be around 40-50 watts). The celestion 70/80 used presently in Laney VC30s is 80 watts. It seems the HH invader used at some point on VC30 is 35 watts. I am not certain the speaker in my amp is that one actually, nor how many watts it is (ironically... I dont see it at the back... and I didnt open it up yet... Laney doesn't care to answer me on its specs). Anybody can tell me if I am going to get these nice cleans with no break up at respectable volumes with a celestion g12h30 anniversary? this amp prides on staying clean at high volumes. Never had a chance to check its limits, but I would like to keep that quality. Thank you.

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Just learned that my HH speaker is model H1280 and is 80 watts.. it is not an Invader... so there is almost something like a standard of 80 watts for a speaker Laney sees approprite for this amp. So Mr WRGKMC I think I might be right looking for considerably more powerful speaker than the amps wattage in this particular case.

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From the manual (emphasis added):

IMPEDANCE SELECTOR SWITCH: This optimises the VC30’s output for 4 or 8-16 ohm loads. When using with the ‘on board’ speaker set to it 8 ohms. If using an 8-16 ohm extension cabinet at the same time as the onboard speaker, set the switch to 4 ohms.

Leave the switch in the 8 Ohm position. You can find the entire manual here: http://www.laney.co.uk/wp-content/up...080ce11fa6.pdf. The manual also says your amp has a single 8 Ohm speaker and that the 2X10 and 2X12 versions have 16 Ohm speakers. Go with any good 8 Ohm speaker that will handle the output of your amp and you'll be fine.

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Thanks a lot. I checked the manual but not about the switch really. It turns out the manual also needs an update. It is not Celestion 70/80 they are using right now, it is an HH speaker H1208 . And they tell me on email its a 16 ohms speaker, most likely by a confusion with the specs for the VC30 212 speakers . Alright I take it 8 ohms is confirmed despite the update in speakers, since 4-8 ohms switch implies so.

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Hi people it turns out replacing VC30 speaker is not as much a proverbial piece of cake as I supposed it to be, at least not for me... Anyone with in depth knowledge let me know. I need to remove not only the back grill but the front shield also to replace the speaker, and the screws for that are behind the 'main board' of the the amp so to speak. I tried to unscrew that board and I probably damaged an important screw. Anyway let me know if you know the deal thanks.

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Well people got over the speaker swap part, but placing the main board back where it was... I called someone to help me or there will be permanent damage if there already isn't... just so that future generations know: don't go into this alone - valid for vc30 112

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There is more to it actually: DONT Get A VC30... unless you got a crew to carry it around... and then you'd probably get something better anyway... what use is an amp that is too heavy to be taken to the service? (at least where the service is inconveniently located and you'll need to take a walk with your amp)

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On some amps, the baffle board is glued in and can't be removed. You have to go in from the back, which might mean you'll need to pull the amp "brain" or head out first - in fact, that's often the best approach since it gives you more working room. On my Vox AC15 it's a real pain in the posterior to swap out a speaker too. You have to pretty much take the whole amp apart into all its major components.

 

You remove the nuts off of the bolts to get the speaker out - the bolts stay in place.

 

Now, as far as your heavy amp goes, you have a few choices. Sell it and get something lighter, or get casters for it. Or get a musician's cart that you can use to roll it from your car to the gig and back again. Or talk someone into / pay someone to carry it for you. :)

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