Members omsbythedozen Posted December 15, 2014 Members Share Posted December 15, 2014 hey all.i play in a hardcore punk band.Poison Idea/Cro-Mags/Black Flag type stuff. Two guitarists. I'm using a Peavey Windsor 100 watt head running through an older peavey 412 cab. The other guy is running an older Peavey Butcher 120 watt head through some random acoustic 412 cab, with an OCD pedal. I never can seem to hear myself loud enough above him. In theory both of our setups should be basically as loud as each other? A 20 watt difference at this point isnt really much? Our practice spot is kinda weird. Im standing pretty close to my rig directly behind me. His amp is about ten feet away from me facing me. Is it possibly this that could be doing this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 15, 2014 Members Share Posted December 15, 2014 It's possible the OCD pedal is adding some gain, making his rig louder. His guitar could also have hotter pickups. Are your guitars identical? His speakers could be more efficient, which means they're louder for a given input. Relative positioning is also a potential factor, as you suspected. If your cab is on the floor behind you, your sound is aimed at your legs. The sound from his cab has a chance to spread out before it reaches you so you get more of it. Speakers are like flashlights in a way: They send sound in whatever direction they're pointed. This is most pronounced with higher frequencies. You're probably not hearing a lot of highs from your rig because of where you're standing. Lots of possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members omsbythedozen Posted December 15, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 15, 2014 ive got an sg standard with 57 classic pickups. hes got a stock peavey t60 from the seventies. i have a proco turbo rat that i occasionally engage to get an extra boost but its still not really getting clear enough for me. when i was using a hot rod deville 4x10/turbo rat on a stand it seemed to be much more present to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members omsbythedozen Posted December 15, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 15, 2014 i highly suspect positioning has a huge influence on it. i will try to get everyone to rearrange next practice. the way everyone is facing doesnt seem to make a whole lot of sense to me. everything is kind of random. five piece. seems like the logical choices would be to have everything behind the drums similar to playing a show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted December 16, 2014 Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 A 4X12 cab takes about 10' before you start to hear it full frequency. Standing directly in front you feel it in your legs more then you actually hear it. I have one of those old Blackface Peavey cabs myself. (see the bottom ones here, http://www.blue97fxstc.com/lpf/amps-2.jpg Its got two aluminum corners running down the two sides of the baffle, speakers are front loaded and the baffle is velcroed into place. The stock eminence black magnet speakers http://www.speakerrepair.com/repairpicshtml/peavey-emin-back.jpg are not very good and if your cab has those same speakers its likely why the cab doesn't sound so hot. They don't sound bad they are just typical low SPL speakers from that time. They sounded better with a peavey head and could handle the extra treble those heads put out. The cabs are built very well. Super solid, but with better speakers, you can match anything out there. The cabs are a little taller and narrower then a Marshall cab. I have a 1960 slant front cab and it hangs over the sides if I sit it on top of the Peavey. The Marshall cab has Celestion 75's in it which sound bright and clear in comparison. If you do upgrade speakers, I'd likely stay away from Greenbacks or other highly midrange speakers. They will mute the sound of the Peavey head and you'll wind up loosing presence. You want a wider frequency response for that head. Speakers designed for Fender/American heads would be a better choice. Something like GT75's http://www.parts-express.com/celestion-g12t-75-12-8-ohm-guitar-speaker-75w--294-2270 or Legends, http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-legend-1258-12-guitar-speaker-75w-8-ohm--290-486 would do the trick. maybe even Peavey speakers if you can afford them. http://www.parts-express.com/peavey-scorpion-sp-12825-12-speaker-driver--294-3118 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members omsbythedozen Posted December 16, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 so something like a marshall 1960a would have alot more clarity to it?also looking at getting an avatar with eminence wizards as another option, since they are supposed to be extremely efficient speakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted December 16, 2014 Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 so something like a marshall 1960a would have alot more clarity to it? also looking at getting an avatar with eminence wizards as another option, since they are supposed to be extremely efficient speakers My Marshall cab has better speakers so it sounds better. The cab has much less to do with it, especially with guitar. If it was a bass cab, then the acoustical air mass inside must match the speaker resonance to get maximum bass. Most standard guitar cabs were built with no acoustic calculations involved. You don't need them because the guitar is a midrange instrument and what you perceive as a low bass note on a guitar is mostly the second order of harmonics beginning at 160hz. Most guitar speakers resonant frequency is much lower so it isn't even a factor. This has changed a bit over the years. There are newer cab designs that do incorporate calculated cab formulas into their designs but they aren't going to target them quite the same as you would a Hi Fi cab design. (If you've ever played through a Hi Fi cab with guitar speakers you'd know why they suck for guitar, they are too boomy) So as an answer, save yourself allot of money and just but better speakers and you'll be fine. If you can get a good deal on a Marshall cab the slant fronts do help you hear the amp better up close, but you could also get something like milk cartons to raise the peavey up and get rid of that floor reflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members omsbythedozen Posted December 16, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 yeah. pretty sure what i have is similar to the peavey 412ms. not sure what all the specs on the speakers are.we practice on thursday. ill try to make the other guitarist's cab not directly face me from ten feet away as well as moving further away from my cab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 16, 2014 Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 ive got an sg standard with 57 classic pickups. hes got a stock peavey t60 from the seventies. . . . when i was using a hot rod deville 4x10/turbo rat on a stand it seemed to be much more present to me. Play both guitars through the same amp to make sure both are putting out a similar level. If one guitar sounds louder, there's at least part of the problem. You mentioned having your Hot Rod DeVille 4x10 on a stand. Having the amp off the floor was part of the difference. Your current cab probably weighs around 100 lbs. Find or improvise a stand that will hold it and see how it sounds off the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 The OP should read this article, and have a look at what speakers are being used with each of the amps. Chances are its a difference in speaker efficiency that is making the biggest difference in the sound pressure level differences between the two amplifiers. Put more efficient speakers in your cabinet, and you should be just as loud (if not louder) as the other guy. PS And yes, moving your amp back and away from you a bit while keeping it pointed towards you will also help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members omsbythedozen Posted December 21, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 21, 2014 awesome. so what you're basically saying is that when i get a new cab with my tax return i should just get an avatar 4x12 with eminence wizards rated at 103.5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted December 22, 2014 Members Share Posted December 22, 2014 Loudness and tone go hand in hand. High DB speakers usually have lighter cones and stronger magnets. Google up the frequency response curves and the speakers and see what kind of peaks they produce in the midrange. The cab choice is what provides the bass. You may just be hearing his amp louder because you're farther away at a proper listening distance. Standing right in front of an amp the sound isn't fully formed yet and goes zipping by your legs. You feel the direct sound more then you hear it. You hear more of the reflected tones off the walls with a cab on the floor. Raising the cab too high and you may hear it but no one else does, plus it interferes with the PA cabs. Sit a 4X12 on a pair of milk crates and its ideal for a flat front 4X12 cab. Otherwise get a slant front and you'll hear your amp clear as day standing at a mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 23, 2014 Members Share Posted December 23, 2014 awesome. so what you're basically saying is that when i get a new cab with my tax return i should just get an avatar 4x12 with eminence wizards rated at 103.5? No, we're saying (or at least I'm saying) try this first: . . . Sit a 4X12 on a pair of milk crates and its ideal for a flat front 4X12 cab. Otherwise get a slant front and you'll hear your amp clear as day standing at a mic. If you still don't like the sound of your cab, then investigate the possibility of replacing it or putting new speakers in it, whichever is more cost effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thatsbunk Posted December 23, 2014 Members Share Posted December 23, 2014 do you practice with a PA? Instead of spending your tax return dollars on another cabinet, why don't you invest in an amp mic (I use Sennheiser E609's). I find that if everything's miked up everybody hears themselves better & it in turn avoids "volume wars". I have no problem keeping up with the mix using a Princeton Reverb... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 23, 2014 Members Share Posted December 23, 2014 Picking up on thatsbunk's idea, a set of 4 Wizards will run you $400. Even a relatively cheap set of 12's like the Eminence Legend 125 (http://usspeaker.com/Legend125-1.htm) will cost close to $300 or so for 4. A pair of milk crates maybe $20. Moving your cab so it's further from you will cost nothing. Here's another thought: Set everything up as if you were playing a gig and get someone with good ears to listen and provide feedback. Buy him/her a hamburger/falafel/latte for his/her trouble. Even cheaper than the milk crates. There may not be a problem from the audience's perspective at all. And it's what the audience hears that counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 awesome. so what you're basically saying is that when i get a new cab with my tax return i should just get an avatar 4x12 with eminence wizards rated at 103.5? Assuming those Eminence Wizards are more efficient than what you're currently using, you should notice an increase in maximum SPL from the rig. How much will of course depend on the efficiency rating of the current speakers, but if they're relatively inefficient and only rated at 93.5dB, you could perceive nearly a doubling in maximum volume by switching to the Wizards. Having said that, your problem may be more an issue with your position relative to the cabinet. If you're standing in a spot outside of the speaker cabinet's dispersion area where you can't hear it, making it louder may not help - just moving to a different spot a bit further away, or angling the speakers so they're aimed more directly at you (like the guys were suggesting) may be all you need to do. I would certainly recommending exhausting the low-cost / potentially free solutions to your problems prior to trying the expensive ones, but if you do in fact need to generate higher SPLs, installing more efficient speakers can often get you there just as easily as a higher-powered amplifier can. Wattage and speaker power handling and efficiency are both important in the volume equation, and people tend to forget about the importance of speaker efficiency and think only in terms of amplifier wattage, which is a mistake IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members antonioctd Posted December 29, 2014 Members Share Posted December 29, 2014 I would really run away from your practice place if you have two half stacks competing volumes!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 29, 2014 Members Share Posted December 29, 2014 . . . Having said that' date=' your problem may be more an issue with your position relative to the cabinet. If you're standing in a spot outside of the speaker cabinet's dispersion area where you can't hear it, making it louder may not help - just moving to a different spot a bit further away, or angling the speakers so they're aimed more directly at you (like the guys were suggesting) may be all you need to do. I would certainly recommending exhausting the low-cost / potentially free solutions to your problems prior to trying the expensive ones, . . .[/quote'] Thank you. That's what WRGKMC and I have been saying for close to two weeks. A cheap new 4X12 cab will cost $260 or better and might not solve the problem at all. A new set of speakers for the OP's existing cab will cost $300 or so bought new and, again, might not solve the problem. I do note that the OP hasn't posted in this thread in a week so it's possible he's already made up his mind and your advice won't affect anything anyway. To the OP: I understand GAS. Truly I do. You have a problem and you want to throw new gear at it. Fine. But throw the right gear at it. If moving your cab will solve the problem, do that. If a pair of milk crates will solve the problem, do that. You still haven't told us what you've tried so far. Did you try moving your cab? Comparing the levels of both guitars through the same amp to eliminate the possibility of hotter pickups in your friend's Peavey? Taking his OCD pedal out of the signal path to see if it's adding gain? Getting someone else to actually listen to you guys to see if the audience is hearing what you're hearing? I'm not trying to be the bad guy but if you haven't done at least some of those things quit thinking about new gear. You've got a toolbox full of hammers so you're looking for a loose nail. Figure out what the problem is before you try to solve it. If you still have a tax refund burning a hole in your pocket after that, go out and spend it but it couldn't hurt to spend it on something you actually need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted December 29, 2014 Members Share Posted December 29, 2014 Those older eminence speakers he's got in that cab likely have an SPL of about 90db max. They don't sound horrible but they really aren't that hot either. I have 6 of them. 2 in a 2X12 cab and 4 in the Peavey cab. I used to use all 6 in an 6X12 Sunn cab too which I've retired to storage. I can get buy using just a 2X12 with the stuff I play but tone wise they are at the bottom of the food chain. Very brown sounding. If I run the Peavey cab along side my Marshall 1960, and use a 100W head on the Peavey cab and a 50W head on the Marshall, they peak out well below the Marshall. The lows are OK. Mids are generic sounding and the highs can be harsh. Touch wise they lack a good response and since the speakers are old they may even suffer from some surround rot. I had to treat most of mine so they wouldn't crack from age. I was in fact going to replace the speakers in that cab when I bought my Marshall head. I just happened to come across the used 1960 cab for $300. The grill cloth was the brown stuff that was all sagged out so I bought new Marshall checkered type and replaced it. I also did the front panel of the head so they match. I Keep the peavey around for Guest players using a 200W Sunn Concert lead head. Getting new speakers for the cab is the best bang for the buck. There's surely nothing wrong with the cab itself. Its very well made and its slightly larger then most 4X12 cabs so you can get a nice warm bottom end from it. Its just the speaker quality available today has come a long way since that cab was sold. If you do buy another cab, then you can always sell it or keep it as a backup. Just be careful if you plan on running a pair of cabs and make sure the impedance of the two match. Some 4X12's are 16 ohms like may Marshall is so you can run a full stack at 8 Ohms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasaoke Posted December 31, 2014 Members Share Posted December 31, 2014 The solution to nearly every (sonic) problem that a band can experience is to turn it down. A half stack IS a volume issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted December 31, 2014 Members Share Posted December 31, 2014 The solution to nearly every (sonic) problem that a band can experience is to turn it down. A half stack IS a volume issue. Don't know about that. I've used them for many decades. I've always found its the room that's the problem not the amp. If the room is highly reflective then, sure its going to be a problem with any amp you use. If you put up sound absorption materials the sound becomes more direct and you can use those higher volumes without all those rogue reflections screwing you up. When I built my studio/rehearsal room, I soundproofed it so the neighbors wouldn't be bothered. I filled the walls with cellulose, added a second wall and put many layers of absorption material. When we did our first jam in there the sound was like wearing headphones, super direct because the room absorbed all reflections. I run 2 amps, a 100W Marshall and 1960 cab and a Music man 65 on a 4X10" cab. Its about the same volume as running a 30W amp in a reflective room. I can also open up the PA in there with few feedback issues. Playing live its a matter off the room. A 4X12" can sound big without melting your face. Its all a matter of how loud you run your master volume. Often times you need that big sound to compensate for poor room acoustics that make everything sound harsh. Other clubs, well designed for live music you may really need that beef on stage just to be heard over the crowd which can be very noisy when you get a couple of hundred drunks in there talking at the top of their voices. Crowd noise and conversation can get up to a good 100db easily in a reflective room and a smaller amp has no chance of captivating them without help being miced up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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