Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 Is there a limit to the speaker connector wire length from amp cab to speaker cab?Is there a rule of thumb to go by?TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t_e_l_e Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 as rule of thumb, as it rules for all cables, it should be as short as possible the longer it is, the higher the possibility to add noise and you lose some signal strength due to cable capacity and resistance... try it out and check your sound, but be sure to use speaker cables not guitar cables Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 The thing about speaker wires is that they need to be able to pass a lot of current. 40 Watts into 8 Ohms is 2.25 Amps and 100 Watts into 4 Ohms is 5 Amps. Here's a bit of a chart that I found... [TABLE] [TR] [TD=colspan: 7]Distance - Feet[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]15[/TD] [TD]20[/TD] [TD]25[/TD] [TD]30[/TD] [TD]40[/TD] [TD]50[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Amps[/TD] [TD=colspan: 7]Wire Gauge[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]18[/TD] [TD]16[/TD] [TD]14[/TD] [TD]12[/TD] [TD]12[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 Here's some information including a handy chart. It applies to audio grade components but the electrical principles remain the same: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-vid...er-cable-gauge. Click on the first chart to see losses for various gauges and runs of cable. Note that the loss for a 20' run of 18 gauge cable (ordinary "lamp cord") is about 0.3 dB or about 7%! That means 7% of your amp's output would go toward heating the cable, turning a 100 Watt amp into a 93 Watter. The same run of 14 gauge cable would have a loss of less than 0.1 dB or less than 3%. Get the heaviest cable you can find and cut it as short as possible while still being usable. Good, solid connections help a whole lot too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 15, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 15, 2014 Here's some information including a handy chart...Get the heaviest cable you can find and cut it as short as possible while still being usable. Good' date=' solid connections help a whole lot too.[/quote'] Thanks for the info guys and DeepEnd for the chart and stuff! I really like the tip on heaviest cable and short as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted September 15, 2014 Members Share Posted September 15, 2014 Noise is rarely an issue. Any EMF induced in a speaker cable is usually less then a volt and wont be reproduced by the speaker. You're only worried about that kind of stuff occurring earlier in the amp input stages where that noise will be amplified by gain stages of the amp. Wire length adds resistance and inductance. This lowers the signal level and reduces the signals frequency response so keeping those cables short maximizes efficiency. With long runs you can begin to hear the high frequency roll off. You also want to be sure you use dual conductors, never shielded cable. Shielded cable has capacitance which isn't good for the amp, and its designed for vow voltage/low heat. If you've ever used a guitar cord that's microphonic or crackly, chances are someone used it as a speaker cable. The insulation inside melts, lets in oxygen, and the copper strands oxidize (tarnish) then when you move the cable around, the tarnished copper wires spark as they make intermittent connections which you can hear when its amplified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted September 15, 2014 Members Share Posted September 15, 2014 . . . You also want to be sure you use dual conductors' date=' never shielded cable. . . .[/quote'] ^ This for sure. Some time ago our church was using a borrowed bass amp, a Peavey Firebass 700 (700 Watts into 2 Ohms) and a Peavey 210TX 2X10 cab. The cable connecting the two was the flimsiest shielded cable I've ever seen, thinner than I use to plug in my guitar. It was only maybe 3' long and sure, there were Watts to spare but they were being wasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted September 17, 2014 Members Share Posted September 17, 2014 (700 Watts into 2 Ohms) There is potential for a large amount of electric current there - in excess of 15 Amps - which could damage coax to the point of causing a short circuit at the output of the amplifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted September 17, 2014 Members Share Posted September 17, 2014 ^^^ The potential damage to the cord and the amp has many factors. I spent quite a few years repairing amps for working musicians and have seen the horrors of abuse. Just because you get away with using a crappy high impedance cord, doesn't mean the advice isn't correct. One way of telling is to simply feel how hot the cable gets when you're playing. Second is the damage to the cord can take time. Copper doesn't corrode the minute its exposed to oxygen and heat. The heat can cause the insulation to expand and let oxygen in. It can take months for that oxygen to tarnish the metal enough where it becomes noisy or microphonic. The first gig the guy gets away with the wrong cord. Some damage is done but its not noticed. he figures it worked fine the first time and the advice is bunk so he uses it again and again. Eventually he hears drops in his power levels especially when he's playing and the cord vibrates. Next, if he's lucky he hears pops in the speakers as the voltage sparks jumps across the insulation dialectic. Then he may just power on one day and hears no sound. The power transistors or output transformer blows and he's looking at a hefty repair bill because he was too cheap assed to buy himself a $3 dual conductor speaker cord. He got away using a high impedance cord for a year so he figures it couldn't possibly be the cord. Before he takes it to a tech he may even buy the correct cord and try it. No soap, he takes it to a tech and when he's asked about what cord was used, he lies and says he's been using the right cord all along. The damage points to a shorted output and since the tech knows this kind of abuse occurs all the time, and can tell he's being lied to, he simply teaches the guy a lesson and bills the guy full price for the repair. If the guy had been honest, and told the tech up front he was using the wrong cord, that would have saved the tech time troubleshooting and his honesty may have resulted in a reduced repair cost. Instead he pisses the tech off trying to hide the reason for the failure and gets what's coming to him. The tech warns him not to use an unshielded cable, takes his money and the guy takes the amp home. What occurs next is the dumbest thing ever. The guy plugs the amp in with the same bad cord and plays the thing for a few weeks. The cord shorts again and takes the amp out again and possibly even worse. He blames the failure on the poor quality work done by the tech and takes it back to him for a warrantee repair. Luckily the tech charged this duface full price last time so his cost of repairing it last time should cover the cost of the parts to do it again. He again tells the guy it looks like the damage was done by a short, again the customer lies about it. The customer still doesn't want to admit he's wrong and face his lies to the tech, but he may swap the cord for another which gives the tech time for the 30 day warrantee to run out. That's if the tech is lucky. I've known customers so arrogant, they go back again and again. The tech eventually refunds the customer his money and takes the hit. The customer takes the amp to another tech. That tech sees the amps been repaired by another tech (techs make notes in the amp so someone else knows who did the work) so he calls that tech. He then finds out this guy is a dork head and suggests he's charged double and forced to buy the right cord. If he's lucky the customer may plug the right cord in. Then he uses that high impedance cord for his guitar and wonders why he's getting all this noise from the cord. As a tech I'd see this scenario occur more times then I can count and its one big reason I quit dong that work. I still did electronic service work for decades but it was for customers who had service contracts and you had large teams of techs. Techs talk about their problem customers and those customers wind up with green techs who don't do the work very well. The customer eventually jumps on the merry go round moving from company to company trying to get good service. they don't realize techs move from company to company too and their bad reputation for gear abuse and lying about it precedes them. The cost of the repairs costs the company a bundle which cuts into their profitability so the company never does very well and in this way, companies with bad business morals are throttled from growing. It doesn't stop them however, it just slows them down. There are companies unfortunately who will whore themselves out and take on the worst customers out there and like I said it gets worse every year. That's why I'm not in dealing with the public directly any more. I have a tendency to tell the truth and that pisses people off too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted September 17, 2014 Members Share Posted September 17, 2014 There is potential for a large amount of electric current there - in excess of 15 Amps - which could damage coax to the point of causing a short circuit at the output of the amplifier. Fortunately, the amp only produces a "mere" 475 Watts into a 4 Ohm load like the 210TX cab. Still, the point is well taken. The owner used it as a keyboard amp and he played fairly loud. I wince when I think of the punishment that poor cable was taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 25, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 25, 2014 Now I'm getting close to buying the speaker cable I was asking about earlier.I have a few more questions. I have a speaker cabinet that has open lugs on the speaker going to a 1/4" male phono plug.The cord is just a foot or so. I would like two speaker cables, one about 10 feet and another about 15 or 20 feet. So I have a few options.I could get the 10' and 15/20' cables as male-female 1/4" phono to extend the existing 1' cable. Or I could get a 10' open lug to 1/4" male phono plug (remove the 1' cable from the amp) and then a 5/10' male-female 1/4" phono plug to extend the 10' cable. Which of the above would you recommend? Or perhaps something better? Does extending a cable (male-female) degrade the connection in any noticeable way? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted September 25, 2014 Members Share Posted September 25, 2014 It's late and I'm not sure I know what you mean about the 1' cable but my gut is telling me the fewer connections the better. In other words, I'd go ahead and use single runs without extension connectors, a full 10' and a full 15-20'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted September 25, 2014 Members Share Posted September 25, 2014 Does extending a cable (male-female) degrade the connection in any noticeable way? Personally, I don't like using inline phone jacks (female) and would not trust them in a speaker wire. Without getting into the physics of inductance, I must warn you that the potential for a high voltage spark exists if the male-female connection isn't solid and you are running a lot of current through the voice coil of your speaker. Is it possible for you to mount a female phone jack in a wall of your cabinet so you can use a speaker wire with male phone plugs on each end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted September 25, 2014 Members Share Posted September 25, 2014 Now I'm getting close to buying the speaker cable I was asking about earlier. I have a few more questions. I have a speaker cabinet that has open lugs on the speaker going to a 1/4" male phono plug. The cord is just a foot or so. This isn't a good arrangement. The wire from the speaker should go to a female jack or speak-on type connector that's mounted to a jack plate on the back of the cab. This insures the wiring inside the cab remains intact and if you do have issues, you aren't having to dig out the can opener (unscrew the speaker cab) and open the cabinet to get to the speaker wiring when you're out playing a gig. The most you may ever have to do is get another cable to connect the cab externally. I would like two speaker cables' date=' one about 10 feet and another about 15 or 20 feet.~~[/quote'] Still not sure what kind of head or cabs you're talking about here. When you provide so little information it makes people work their ass off guessing what might be right instead of giving you spot on information. If this was a stereo power head, you don't want to use two different cable lengths because it sets up an imbalance between the two channels. The added resistance makes one channel work harder then the other. With a mono block head, its shouldn't be as big a deal, but you should realize you can have allot of power reduction using a longer wire. If these are unmatched cabs you may want to put the louder cab on the longer wire to balance the db level of the two cabs. So I have a few options. I could get the 10' and 15/20' cables as male-female 1/4" phono to extend the existing 1' cable. Or I could get a 10' open lug to 1/4" male phono plug (remove the 1' cable from the amp) and then a 5/10' male-female 1/4" phono plug to extend the 10' cable. Which of the above would you recommend? Or perhaps something better? Does extending a cable (male-female) degrade the connection in any noticeable way? Thanks! As Onelife says this is a really bad idea using speaker extension cables. Finding a really good in-line extension for 1/4" jack options aren't very good. You're better off mounting two high quality switchcraft plugs in a metal box. http://www.parts-express.com/switchc...asher--093-104 and if you're going through all that trouble, why not just dump the short cable all together. They do make these, but how long they may last without issues is very questionable. http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik...-jack--092-134 The actual contact point on the tip of a 1/4" jack is very small and the connectors do heat up and weaken plastic. This is why sticking with high quality metal connectors have been around for ages. Whatever you do don't use some cheap assed crap like these or you're looking for trouble. http://www.parts-express.com/1-4-ste...astic--090-323 What's used for higher wattage connection and thicker speaker wire connections should be similar to this. These give you enough space inside to make secure solder connections with thicker speaker wire. http://www.parts-express.com/switchcraft-188-1-4-mono-plug-heavy-duty-nickel--093-126 It would be better to have the speak-on connector on the back of the cab securely mounted. http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik...mount--092-054 Then you install one of these to one end of the speaker cord. http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik...mount--092-050 Then one of these to the other for plugging into the head. http://www.parts-express.com/switchcraft-188-1-4-mono-plug-heavy-duty-nickel--093-126 or just buy the pre made cable and save money. http://www.parts-express.com/pyle-pp...5-ft--248-4618 Otherwise if you're going with 1/4" make sure you install one of these in the speaker cab. http://www.parts-express.com/penn-el...plate--260-287 Use some good switchcraft jacks which connect to your speakers http://www.parts-express.com/switchc...asher--093-104 Use some high quality speaker cable. http://www.parts-express.com/audio-t...6-ft--242-5018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 25, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 25, 2014 Personally, I don't like using inline phone jacks (female) and would not trust them in a speaker wire... Is it possible for you to mount a female phone jack in a wall of your cabinet so you can use a speaker wire with male phone plugs on each end? Yes it is possible. What is the difference between plugging in an in-line extension cord (male-female) into a 1/4" phono male versus plugging in a 1/4" speaker cable (male-male) into a 1/4" jack mounted on the speaker cabinet? In both cases you still will have the same problem; a connection between a 1/4" phono male and phono female. The only difference being, in one case the connection is hanging loose on the ground, in the other case the connection is made on the back of the speaker cabinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 25, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 25, 2014 Thanks for the input WRGKMC. I hope to get some clarification and I will also give clarification on my part. WRG, you mention this part is cheap and assed crap:http://www.parts-express.com/1-4-stereo-in-line-jack-plastic--090-323 and then immediately after give the link to the same part saying "These give you enough space inside to make secure solder connections with thicker speaker wire." And later, you give the link to the same part saying "Then one of these to the other for plugging into the head." I'd like to do this right, so it seems the Speakon connector is the way to go, correct? I read that Speakon connectors are made in two, four and eight-pole configurations.I'm confused about this and would like to know which I should go for in my situation. Now for clarification on my part. I have a combo tube amp that I am separating into two parts.I am keeping the cabinet for the combo and using it just to house the speaker. I will have a friend build a cabinet to house the amp. This should now help to explain why I have a short 1' cable going from the speaker to a 1/4" male phono plug. I would like at least two (probably three) speaker cables to plug the amp into the speaker cabinet.5', 10' and 20'.This would allow me to have the amp at various distances away from the speaker cab, depending upon the setup at the gig. I don't want to rest the amp cab on top of the speaker cab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted September 25, 2014 Members Share Posted September 25, 2014 Sorry, I cut and pasted the wrong link. I corrected it for you so that post should make sense now. By the way you should check out that site its got good prices for speakers and cab gear. Good people to deal with too. I do get what you're doing now. Installing a jack plate on the combo cab is your best bet for tidy and secure operation. Are you going to be running multiple cabs, have you computed the total impedance, and does it match the head or are you just going to use the one cab? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 25, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 25, 2014 Sorry' date=' I cut and pasted the wrong link. I corrected it for you so that post should make sense now.[/quote'] Thanks! By the way you should check out that site its got good prices for speakers and cab gear. Good people to deal with too. OK. Will do. Are you going to be running multiple cabs, have you computed the total impedance, and does it match the head or are you just going to use the one cab? No, I will be using just the one speaker cab with the amp head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 25, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 25, 2014 Do they have pre-built speaker cables with a right-angle SpeakOn connector on one end and a right-angle 1/4" phono male on the other? If not, I might have to build a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 26, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 26, 2014 Before I get out my drill and start boring fresh holes in my combo cabinetI'd like to pose my questions to you once again, now that you know my specificsituation with regards to my amp. Given that my combo cabinet is open back and quite small, would you still installa SpeakOn connector to one of the open back panels? Or would you go with an in-line 1/4" phono to 1/4' phono" or possibly aSpeakOn female connected to the speaker, then an in-line SpeakOn male to 1/4" phono? It is very easy to grab the 1' foot speaker cable currently attached to the speaker. TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted September 26, 2014 Members Share Posted September 26, 2014 What is the difference between plugging in an in-line extension cord (male-female) into a 1/4" phono male versus plugging in a 1/4" speaker cable (male-male) into a 1/4" jack mounted on the speaker cabinet? This may have already been answered but, since you asked me directly, I'll answer it here. The difference is in the quality of the electrical connection. It's difficult to get a solid, secure connection with the in-line connectors. Given that my combo cabinet is open back and quite small, would you still install a SpeakOn connector to one of the open back panels? Or would you go with an in-line 1/4" phono to 1/4' phono" or possibly a SpeakOn female connected to the speaker, then an in-line SpeakOn male to 1/4" phono? Instead of drilling any holes in your open back cabinet, what do you think of the idea of screwing a small metal bracket into the inside of one of the solid walls of the cabinet and mounting a good quality female phone jack in it. The wire to the speaker can be soldered to the jack and it will give you the solid secure connection that you need. Another advantage would be that the wire from the speaker to the jack will essentially be stationary so it won't flex or put strain on the connection to the lugs of the speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted September 26, 2014 Members Share Posted September 26, 2014 ^^^^^ That's what I would have said One Life. I did that on a 4X10" open backed cab of mine and it works out great. If the back of the cab has an overhang you just screw the plate to the inside of that overhang. This helps with having the cable jack recessed. You can buy angled plugs in both 1/4" and Speak-on. There aren't many angled 1/4" jacks that are very good. Switchcraft makes the best ones at a budget cost but you're a bit cramped for soldering heavier gauge speaker wire. http://www.parts-express.com/switchcraft-226-1-4-mono-90-degree-plug-nickel--093-128 You do have angled speakon connectors http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4frx-speakon-spx-right-angle-cable-connector-4p--092-192 but you probably wont need them if you mount the Plug from the back of an overhang. If all 4 sides on the back of the cab overhang, You may be able to place this http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4mpr-speakon-connector-4-pole-round-chassis-mount--092-054 in a corner and get three screws in it from the back instead of drilling a hole to fit it. A little glue wouldn't hurt either. Just be sure you have enough clearance to plug your cable into it. You could also drill a hole in the overhang, and fit the jack to the back of the panel. This would allow a straight speakon connector to be recessed into the wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 26, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 26, 2014 Instead of drilling any holes in your open back cabinet, what do you think of the idea of screwing a small metal bracket into the inside of one of the solid walls of the cabinet and mounting a good quality female phone jack in it. The wire to the speaker can be soldered to the jack and it will give you the solid secure connection that you need. Thanks. If I drill holes into the cabinet (which is very likely now) I will go through one of the back panels. Although it is very unlikely that I will restore the amp to its original combo form, I'll still be able to do it if I drill into a custom panel that I made (that replaced one of the original panels). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 26, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 26, 2014 You can buy angled plugs in both 1/4" and Speak-on. There aren't many angled 1/4" jacks that are very good. Switchcraft makes the best ones at a budget cost but you're a bit cramped for soldering heavier gauge speaker wire. http://www.parts-express.com/switchcraft-226-1-4-mono-90-degree-plug-nickel--093-128 You do have angled speakon connectors http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4frx-speakon-spx-right-angle-cable-connector-4p--092-192 but you probably wont need them if you mount the Plug from the back of an overhang. Thanks WRG. I was wondering if any of you have seen *pre-built cables* that have right angle Speak-on male to right angle 1/4" plug. If not, I'll just buy the parts and build the cables. My amp doesn't have any overhangs and I prefer the low-profile design of a right angle plug. Can someone please tell me if I should get 4 pole or 2 pole Speak-on plugs? For my situation, I will only ever use the combo speaker with the combo amp. That's it. I keep seeing 4 pole this and 4 pole that for Speak-On. They also brag of their plugs being 1000W. My amp is 22 W! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzer2020 Posted September 27, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 27, 2014 It looks like I am going to have to roll my own, as I can't find the cable (right angle both ends) that I want. What I've learned so far is that the 4 pole Speak-on (which is more common today than 2 pole)can be used in 2 pole situations and is supposed to be easier to work with than the 2 pole (more room). I'm not sure if the right angle 4 pole will have more room (as the straight version does). When I'm building my cables, do I need to find the black cable? The see-through stuff isn't for guitar amps right? TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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