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What matters more, guitar or amp??


Iwak Kobong

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In the spirit of Hans' "one thought provoking thread per week" request, here's mine....

 

What matters more, guitar or amp?

 

My opinion is.....

 

Sure, everybody knows to say that it's neither because (fill in your favorite guitar god) would sound just as good even if he were playing an old Univox through a cheapy cube amp.

 

Yeah, true, but I'm no guitar god. And both have a real effect on how I sound (at least in the context of the cover band stuff that I do...)

 

For me, I'd choose the cheapest guitar in the PRS line and an HX/DA or an MDT with a 2x12 of V30s over the nicest private stock BRW neck uber guitar and a cheapy amp....or a Mexican Tele and a Twin Reverb over a custom shop Tele or Strat with a cheapy amp..... Or an Epiphone SG and Marshall Offset JTM45 over an R9 and a Marshal MG.

 

It's just a thought experiment though since we don't necessarily have to choose.... But if I had to, I'd go all out on the amp, and not so much on the guitar.

 

I have no experience at all with modelling software though, so maybe I'd change my tune if I did???

 

Anyway, how about you???

 

P.S., I'd ask for a card assignment, but I'm too much of a comittment-phobe for that. Maybe severel of the less reliable amongst us can gang together in the wild-card slot??

 

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Since the guitar pickup is really part of the amp chain I'd consider it to be part of the amplifier even though its permanently mounted in a guitar. Its like a Mic being part of a PA, even though there is a big choice of mics you can use.

 

This then separates the guitar from the electronic aspect and you can then debate your question better into instrument/sound source.

 

An acoustic guitar provides both the mechanical method and musical tones to create music by the body acting like a speaker.

 

With an electric you separate the mechanical motion of the strings and the source of sound by making the speaker act as the acoustic body.

 

The guitar is a tool that provides the mechanical means of producing musical tones. So long as the neck is a good fit to the hands and there's no major flaws in its setup, action, or ergonomics there shouldn't be anything else besides the wood tone that's transferred into the strings as they resonate. Whether that tone establishes any psychological factors that impedes a performers ability to excel in his performance playing the instrument is going to vary depending on the individual.

 

Because players bond so tightly with an instrument in converting his physical movements into sound, he may often get lost somewhere in between his finger tips and what his hears as a result of that movement. It can be like someone getting used to wearing a prosthetic leg and the mind joins with it as though it was part of the body except his nerves and feelings don't extend down into it. There is physical vibration and motion detected however and the mind retrains itself as though it actually is a living part of their body.

 

This is mans gift from the beginning. He has the skill and intelligence to wield tools. For a musician it may be guitar or some other instrument like a drum stick or piano key. For others it may be swinging a hammer or shooting a bow and arrow. Man is adaptable to his surroundings and uses tools to perform work he cant with his hands alone.

 

So in my world you could break it down into three parts. The performer, the tool, the sound source.

 

Which is most important can be debated but its really mind over matter when it comes to music. The performer must control the strings first. The rest is all amplification of that string movement. If the tool impedes the performance of the musician its a bottleneck to getting good tones from the sound source.

 

If the performance exceeds the ability of the sound source to produce notes, as is often the case with distorted amps and drive boxes, the dynamics are compressed and ability to manipulate the tones may be limited and the amp/pickup combination and the bottleneck is a self imposed limiting factor.

 

Guitars have been around for thousands of years and its only been in the last 50 where he has begun to make it into something different.

 

Electric Guitarists in particular intentionally bottleneck their tones by limiting its dynamics adding distortion and in many ways has neglected the skills to control the string dynamics. Most amps and guitars are capable of creating decent clean tones. When you go beyond that and judge damaged waveforms as being good or bad, there aren't any standards of judging what may be good or bad because you are judging how bad is good.

 

You could use a reference based on someone else's distorted tones sound good to you, but that's just a recipe where you blend in white noise with the clean tones to create a backwash that eliminates silence between the notes. In order to do that you have to use all three factors to get a good balance.

 

Then you have to add in the musical arrangement the guitar part needs to fill. What might sound bad solo is a perfect fit in a musical arrangement or recording mix when you have all the other instruments in place.

 

Performance skills, the tool to create that string movement and the frequency and gain of the amp will determine what's produced by the speaker. Which of those is more important doesn't factor in unless its creating a bottleneck. The only time you need to break them down into separate units is when you need to troubleshoot and isolate problems or focus on manipulating that tone chain.

 

Again I think guitarists in particular get lost in their chains because the components are connected with cables that can be unplugged. If they were to focus on the entire chain like an acoustic player does on the tones coming from the wooden box, they would see the bottlenecks clearly and use them more efficiently to benefit their tones.

 

If you look at another musician like a keyboard player you view him as a performer and his instrument that produces many different tones. The amplifier doesn't even factor in unless its deficient and even then it may be intentional so it creates a unique musical arrangement. Same goes for guitarists.

 

An artist should view both the instrument and amp chain as a single instrument that uses various tools to shape the sound he wants to produce. It requires both musical and technical skills to produce tones that go beyond what an acoustic instrument alone can produce and when you add various sound effects in you simply add to the creative tones that can be produced. Keep things simple and you wont get lost thinking one element is more important then another. When you start thinking that way its too easy to loose your artistic balance using a complex chain.

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Good question, but tough to answer. I think it may have something to do with the type of music you play and how you set up your gear. IMHO if you are a high gain player, my thinking is that the amp might make more of a difference. In that scenario, the amp tone probably isn't as affected by the guitar. In a clean or light gain set up, I think the guitar's tone is going to come through more and have a greater affect on the overall tone.

 

I know for me personally, I choose a guitar more for it's play-ability and choose my amps and pedals more for the tone I'm trying to get.

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Not all cheap guitars and amps are built the same, YMMV. Not all people are willing to work with what they have to make it sound as best as possible.

 

With that said, the best tones I've ever gotten were from a 500 dollar hamer, a solid state amp, albeit a nicer one (ampeg vh140c) and a 2x12 cab loaded with EVM speakers. Equipment that I've gotten to know VERY well with over 10,000 hours of playtime using the combination. In my playing career I've owned and still do own all sorts of equipment from a full higher end pedalboard (pigtronix, ehx, etc) to cheapo multi-effect units (digitech, line 6)- i own a number of nice guitars a gibson lp custom, a takamine acoustic, great amps etc etc etc-- mainly because i've got the means for it and the space for it.

 

it's all about how it's set up! If you set up a 200 dollar guitar to play and sound beautifully by a professional luthier you can bet your ass that it is going to be nice!............ not nearly as nice as the same luthier setting up a 2500 new guitar though.

 

If you have a 6000 tube amp with crap tubes being powered off of a dirty line plugged in with some tone sucking pedals- YOU WILL HAVE A CRAP TONE- I gawaaanteee it. If you have a 6000 dollar guitar with shot electronics and warped neck YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME!

 

Both are important, not one piece will make you or break you-- the entire rig is priority!

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I'd rather have a $100 Squire telecaster and a $5,000 amp than a $5,000 guitar and a $100 amp.

 

You're kidding yourself if you don't know what would sound better

 

Heck yes.

 

There was a popular local blues band around here a while back (OK- 10 years ago) whose guitarist played a stock Squire Strat through a Bassman reissue and she sounded awesome.

 

Bet if she had been playing a Clapton CS Strat through a Frontman she'd have sounded like crap.

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Guitaramp.

 

It's a system, and you need both, unless you plan on playing unplugged and unheard.

 

But realistically, no one who knows what they're doing is going to buy a $3000 PRS, a $50 Fender Frontman, and go out and gig with it.

 

You are most likely going to spend about twice as much on a decent guitar as a decent amp, because guitars generally have more hand-work involved in their manufacture.

 

I think I lean more toward the expensive guitar/cheap amp than the other way around. The guitar has to feel good in my hands, the amp - not so much. Amps are really just P.A.'s for guitars. I can probably get some kind of useful sound out of most any amp, but a cheap guitar with cheap pickups and cheap wood and cheap hardware is going to grate on my nerves and fingers. Buying cheap and replacing the bad parts only leaves you back at square one. But I guess everyone needs a hobby.

 

Yes, there are zillions of good, less expensive guitars, much more available today than ever before.

But they are definitely not as good as the expensive ones.

 

 

 

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You're all wrong: It's gotta be the chord. (Kidding). Hmmm agree with evets about spending more on guitar. Love my Mustang amps, and they are cheap.... If you are cantankerous old dude like me, you vote for guitar (can't hear anymore anyway). Perhaps as important question is: how does specific guitar do with specific amp? For whatever reason, some are just incompatible for maxing the "tone".

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like someone said here before: el cheapo guitar + KILLER amp is a much better option if u don't have a choice. Mediocre guitars can be gradually and affordably upgraded with better set up, pick ups, wiring, pots etc. Crappy solid state/digital modeling amps will remain the junk they are no matter what u do to them.

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Its a chain. anything weak in a chain can bottleneck the sound quality and once its bottlenecked you cant make up for it further down the chain.

 

If the player or instrument is weak, you wont get the best from an amp. If the amp is weak, the players going to be fighting a stone wall.

If the speaker is a weak link in the chain it doesn't matter how good everything is before it, that speaker just isn't going beyond its maximum performance, it will top out and bottleneck the sound.

 

Everything else is simply personal preference.

 

How much difference between the pickups in a cheap guitar and a good one can be debated, or whether great speakers with a mediocre head sound better then a great head with mediocre speakers is all a matter of degrees and personal preference.

 

The truth is, whatever bottlenecks a players performance is bad. I can play pretty good on a budget Strat but does it feel good to play and does it inspire me to play my best, No way, and since a guitarist is only one instrument in a band, the audience which often see bands in clubs with bad acoustics and often have tin ears to begin with uses their eyes just as much as their ears when watching a band.

 

Bad sound quality and acoustics has less impact then a musicians performance. His showmanship carries the emotional content that connects with an audience and if his stubbing around on a crap guitar it doesn't matter how good it sounds, he isn't going to have his mind on the audience. It will be on his battling an uncomfortable instrument to get his notes across. Sound quality is usually secondary to that, especially with electrics which have their tones mutilated by all kinds of gizmos and stomp boxes. An audience sees a guitarists as only 20% of a full 4 piece band and vocals and it doesn't take allot to be part of that mix as a player.

 

As a musician however, why would you favor one or the other? Wouldn't both be a goal or would you be happy with one or the other acting as a bottleneck to your skill as a player?

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The amp is more important. If I have to play a cheap guitar, it will still sound like me because my tone comes from my hands. I will get used to the way the cheap guitar plays. If the pickups are muddy, I will change them.

 

However, if the amp sounds like crap, there is nothing I can do. It will annoy me. I won't want to write music. I get very inspired by the tone's I'm getting. The tone I get out of the amp will inspire my compositions. If I write something with an Engl Powerball, it will sound heavier and more brutal than if I use a rectifier sound. Because of the way the amp sounds it naturally drives me to do that.

 

These days, guitars can be had at a cheap price that are not crap. I have quite a few expensive guitars. I play an ESP LTD EC-1000 more than any of my guitars. It was like 799 dollars. To this day, at any price point, I have not found a guitar that feels better and sounds better for my style of playing. It plays better than any les paul I own or have played. It's hard to play my Les Paul's because it has spoiled me.

 

For clean tones, I have a Squier 50's vibe strat that I play more than my other guitars as well. For whatever reason, the fretwork, the action, the pickups that are in the 50's vibe Squier sound better than a Fender Standard. And it sounds better than any of my Les paul's for clean. I paid like 250 bucks for the thing.

 

Pretty much, as long as I can get the action low, and the pickups are good, I'm satisfied.

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I can get a good sound from a cheap guitar. I have a Yamaha Pacifica 012 that sounds great.

 

I can even get a good sound from a cheap amp. I have a 12 watt Crate practice amp that sounds great at home.

 

But, if I want a good, loud, sound, I'm going to have to put more money in the amp than the guitar.

 

That said, if I was looking for Wes Montgomery's sound, I couldn't get it with the world's best amp and a Stratocaster. At that point, I'm going to have to get a humbucker and, probably, an archtop.

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I'm gonna turn 36 in April, meaning that I was a highly impressionable kid back in the days when Squier and Epiphone were still words one did not speak at the dinner table unless they wanted their dad to slap them (Okay, okay--maybe that was just my family...), and somehow, for some reason, I got infatuated with guitar magazines...probably because, at home, I goofed around on a Fender Swinger my dad had kept around (of all the guitars on earth to be laying around for me to molest...a 3/4 scale, super rare oddity Fender made less than 2,000 of...freakin' weird) but aside from learning how to do BB King/SRV style vibrato, I had no idea what I was doing...I mean, I couldn't play Louie Louie for cripe's sake!

 

Around the time I turned 13 my dad got an American Std Telecaster though, and I fell in love with that thing and couldn't put it down. He ended up saying that if I kept practicing and got good then he'd get me my own for my birthday (that one ended up being a 78 Fender Strat for which he paid $400...a few years later I'm reading a collector's book and decided to check it's serial # and lo and behold, it was a 72! Quite a good investment and talk about a lucky 14 year old!).

 

That whole time, and for a few more years, I had THEE. WORST. AMP. EVER. I remember the brand name was "Ross," it was tiny, had maybe an 8" speaker, was fizzy and noisy as Hell, no more than 5-10 watts. No reverb, lots of useless EQ knobs (meaning they had weird, abstract names and did...well, I couldn't tell you what they did, but I'm guessing that most of it was stupid!).

 

I then upgraded to a Marshall JCM 800 Lead-1960 4x12 angled cabinet with an old school -- i mean OLD SCHOOL, PEOPLE -- Crate head that was...well, a 120 watt version of that Ross thing. G 600 I think it's called? (not exactly a classic LOL...though I did get some classic sounds out of it despite the most ferkakta selection of controls and EQ ever...disregard what I said about the Ross practice amp earlier...THIS THING was made by someone who had done way too much LSD...).

 

With a classic, arguably borderline CBS era Fender Strat, a new Tele, and then an SG Special, my weird, faux angst-ridden teenage ass fell in love with music and was even able to develop my own style and sound even though my amps were basically Tonya Harding to my Nancy Kerrigan...(I swear almost all of the pedals I owned then were to make up for one of the myriad of ways in which my amps totally sucked!)

 

Now my little story aside, when you bond with a guitar, YOU BOND WITH IT. Your brain creates neuromuscular pathways (i.e. muscle memory) specifically for navigating that guitar and different from those it makes for others (I've never "bonded" with a Les Paul due to where they put that damn selector knob...).When you've become your own player, it's true what they say: you'll sound like *you* playing just about any guitar through any amp, but your brain and hands will know which guitar they WANT to be play...

 

Bonding with an amp is an entirely different deal. Especially with these Line 6 contraptions all the whippersnappers love so damn much! :) I love, love, LOOOOOVE my old "block letter" (again! These damn whippersnappers just have a nickname for EVERYTHING...) 5150 head* and not just because it gets ridiculous levels of gain and it allowed me to neglect and gradually watch all of the distortion pedals I'd hoarded over the years get "borrowed" by friends without even caring! :) Those amps (or at least mine) have very unique tonal qualities when you have the pre gain jacked up...I call it a "spongey" distortion. and then there's' the power amp's controls, the Resonance and Presence (the former is like bass control from another dimension--like adding low end from perfectly powered subwoofers out of a car with a huge sound system; the latter adds treble in the same way...if you play heavier music and feel either, good luck going back!)

 

*and YES, I can get an awesome clean sound with mine, despite that oh-so-lame cost cutting measure that forces you to share a single EQ for your clean channel and your peel paint off of walls super high gain channel...it helps if you switch PICKUPS, KIDS, especially from the lead one...I should note too that after gawking at the EVH 5150 III (still don't see why I should want three channels....) 50 watt head for several months, I recently spent some time with one, was digging it...and realized they KILLED THE RESONANCE CONTROL!!!

 

For the most part though? Amps don't vary much below a certain price point. And nobody even tries to hide it anymore when they're playing an arena with a 30 watt comb mic'd into the PA system. Hell, they don't vary much above crazy price points, either! I've played just about every high end and boutique company's best amps and at least 50% of the time I'm just thinking "HOW MUCH is this? and WHY...?"

 

Last arguments for guitar > amps?

 

1.) Sansamps!!!! :)

2.) In a pinch, you can always borrow somebody else's amp--and half the time, you're thinking "well I kinda liked that one better than mine..."

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I actually like the sound of many low budget cheap amps from days gone by…but since cheapo guitars can be difficult to intonate and keep in tune, I have to say the guitar. If only because that is the interface between the music in your head and the air. You can make music on an electric guitar and no amp, but without the guitar the amp doesn't do anything but provide a bit of hiss/hum and a place to put a beer.

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Lets pose this. Which is more important. The Mic or the PA?

 

The sax or the mouthpiece, I agree with the amp guys but only scaled to usage.

 

Player can fantasize without instrument, Gifted audience only..

Player can perform with just guitar. Small audience only, campfire optional.

Player can bring any size venue to life. Guitar and appropriate amp required.

 

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Somewhat: Guitar = quality, Amp= quantity

Amps can be really different.

Also lower cost guitars have gotten a lot better. A cheap guitar used to seriously flawed. I played some $100, new, guitars when looking and was very surprised how nice they were. Of course when I get really inspired I want to be able to do a dive bomb, which costs a bit more.

 

Amps should cost more, a good rig weighs maybe 100 pounds. Amps that weigh no more than the guitar are made not just for cheapness. Sound like toys though.

 

Speakers used to be a real tough one, in the early 90s when I switched to guitar most amps shipped with terrible ones; the V30 had just come out. Also has gotten better. Definitely was big factor in hearing damage.

 

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In the spirit of Hans' "one thought provoking thread per week" request, here's mine....

 

What matters more, guitar or amp?

 

My opinion is.....

 

Sure, everybody knows to say that it's neither because (fill in your favorite guitar god) would sound just as good even if he were playing an old Univox through a cheapy cube amp.

 

Yeah, true, but I'm no guitar god. And both have a real effect on how I sound (at least in the context of the cover band stuff that I do...)

 

For me, I'd choose the cheapest guitar in the PRS line and an HX/DA or an MDT with a 2x12 of V30s over the nicest private stock BRW neck uber guitar and a cheapy amp....or a Mexican Tele and a Twin Reverb over a custom shop Tele or Strat with a cheapy amp..... Or an Epiphone SG and Marshall Offset JTM45 over an R9 and a Marshal MG.

 

It's just a thought experiment though since we don't necessarily have to choose.... But if I had to, I'd go all out on the amp, and not so much on the guitar.

 

I have no experience at all with modelling software though, so maybe I'd change my tune if I did???

 

Anyway, how about you???

 

P.S., I'd ask for a card assignment, but I'm too much of a comittment-phobe for that. Maybe severel of the less reliable amongst us can gang together in the wild-card slot??

 

track.gif

 

 

The more skill and experience you gain playing, and hopefully, the more you improve over time, you will hopefully discover that.....

 

Within reason of course, skill and ability is much more important than gear.

 

With time and effort, you'll be able to answer all these questions, and you'll definitely have your preferences. Those may also change over time.

 

I love gear, especially high end gear as much as anyone.

 

But......time and time again through the years, I've heard various guitar/amp set-ups that the uppity crowd would turn their proverbial noses up at, sound absolutely fabulous in the proper hands.

 

Likewise, sterling gear sounding horrible in the hands of a hacker. You Tube is littered with proof pro and con.

 

It's just the way it is. Beginners often go in circles chasing sounds with out first considering their limitations as opposed to equipment limitations. And left to the device of lots of cash, frittering away large amounts of it trying to find the sounds in their minds, only to be very disappointed when they don't sound like their "heros" through the same gear.

 

Every little thing ads up to make a difference. ​Skill and knowledge tempered with experience will help you determine how much.

 

Enjoy. The fun along the journey is certainly not the means to an end, because there is no end when you're truly having fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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