Members thomasterrible Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 I recently had my amp worked on and the amp tech decided to use 6L6 tubes instead of the stock EL34's. I was wondering what the difference between the two was. When I asked him which tubes had more gain he said the 6L6's. I would like to know a bit more about the differences to expect between the two tubes to know if I am going in the right direction dialing in this amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MLattack Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 Long story short... el34 Marshally lots of mids little less bottom and less sparkle. Very aggressive and raw. 6l6 Mesa/Fenderish bunch of bottom and treble. More polished/smooth sounding. What amp is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JesusCrisp Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 6L6 tubes are used for American voicing, EL34's for British. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thomasterrible Posted October 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 Long story short...el34 Marshally lots of mids little less bottom and less sparkle. Very aggressive and raw.6l6 Mesa/Fenderish bunch of bottom and treble. More polished/smooth sounding.What amp is it? Its an Ashdown Fallen Angel 180 watt all tube amp.It came stock with JJ EL34's but then it broke down and the tech thinks that the 6l6's are the best way to go. I want to get a lot of crunch out of it but also a good tone. I got it home and it had way too little gain so I am taking it back to him to rebias it. It does sound smoother now but without the high gain it should so perhaps it will sound better when the bias is changed. The amp has 2 channels and a boost on the second channel so I would like it to act like it, meaning that channel 1 is clean, channel 2 is dirty and with the gain cranked and the boost on it is crazy gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thomasterrible Posted October 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 The circuit (and output transformer) the tube is sitting in dictates most of the tone, not so much the tube. Put EL34's in a Fender twin reverb and it still sounds Fender/6l6. You can build a circuit with 6L6 tubes that crunches like an EL34 loaded Marshall if you know what you're doing. Vox AC30 with 4 EL84's is smooth and creamy. A Crate Vintage Club 50 with 4 EL84's sounds glassy/tight, very Fender like. Every type of output tube does have it's own sound, but the circuit is critical how it behaves and how the final tone/performance comes out. Never assume how an amp is going to sound based on its tubes. If you haven't played it, you do not know. Carry on Well I was sort of forced to put something in because something fried the original tubes when they were almost new. The amp had a fixed bias stock but that has been changed to an adjustable one. When I just spoke to the amp tech he said that he can change the bias to give me more gain but it will shorter the life of the tubes, so I am going to have him do that. The reason I questioned the different tubes is because it is the only change that has been made from stock (JJ El34's) and current (Groove Tube 6l6GE's) it did sound pretty smooth but a total lack of gain and crunch, I am hoping the biasing will fix that. He asked me to bring in the amp and my guitar and cab but my cab being an oversized mesa rect oversized cab and having nothing to transport it I cant do that part. Since the amp no longer is fixed bias he can change that so I take it that if he changes the bias it will likely give me the drive and crunch it had even though the tubes are different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tommythelurker Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 Find another tech. Seriously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thomasterrible Posted October 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 I have not had any amps that had 6L6 tubes in them before they have all been EL34's and since this is the only change that was made from stock it made sense to me it might be the reason that it is so different. But I just paid a mint to have this amp repaired including the overpriced groovetubes so the only way I am going to get someone to work on the amp for free is this guy. There is another amp shop in town that is as shady as they get. They charged me for biasing a fixed bias amp and "adding gain" to channel 2 which they could not explain how they said likely a resistor or something. I dont have a lot of good options. You must have a lot more money than I do to not try to get the tech I paid to fix it but just take it to another shop and see what happens. I asked a question about two types of tubes. Should I not expect that adjusting the bias on the 6l6's will ever give me more crunch? In case this happened to become an issue, which it has not yet, I asked my attorney what would happen if the tech could not make the amp sound like it did before and he said that I would be SOL because the tech did make the amp work and tone is subjective. I live near Bill Gates but dont have as much money as his loose change. This is a real world issue and it is easy to pick on the tech but not productive, how about some advice that fits the current situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thomasterrible Posted October 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 I will find out because when I pay for something to be fixed and it doesnt end up working right I go back to that person I already paid to fix it. If I kept taking it to techs I might as well throw it away as it would be cheaper. Now I have read contradictory information here, plus I read the bias link and it did say that biasing the tubes would change distortion and gain. So aside from not liking this tech, is it possible to get my amp to sound pretty close to stock with the 6L6 tubes or is the only way I will get the gain and crunch back by switching back to EL34's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tommythelurker Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 Honestly, I don't think the power tubes or bias adjustment have anything to do with your issue. That amp gets it's gain/crunch from the preamp, not the power amp. I also suspect that the tech you consider "shady" may actually be more honest and competent than your current tech based on what you've told us. Sounds like you might be falling prey to a "smooth talker". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Electrikon Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 Not reading foreposts, just adding my buck 50: EL34: mids,overtones, warmth, agression, sweet... overtones, clear, cutting.6L6: fat, juicy, slicing, big bottoms drive me outta my mind but don't shelve in a band mix as well as EL34's, better for cleans yet the Mesa toob o' choice (but mostly for reliability). I love Marshalls, Mesas and Fenders. They all sound great, and this is just one of the awesome tube tonz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hecticone Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 a tube is a tube etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Electrikon Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 a tube is a tube etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hecticone Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 why you palming me junior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Electrikon Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 why you palming me junior? 'cause ur being noobular wif you're "a tube is a tube" bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 Your power amp tubes won't change your tone enough for you to notice much on that amp unless you're diming the amp. In my JMP it matters but most amps that derive their tone from the tonestack in the preamp and the various cascading preamp tubes you're not going to get a huge difference in tone. You'll get a bit of difference in feel and response. Chances are your {censored}ty JJ tubes crapped out and the {censored}ty groove tubes aren't much better. Your amp tech is a rip-off artist and you're acting like everyone is giving you bad advice (despite the fact that the only guy you believe is evidently the dude ripping you off) so what more do you want us to tell you? Listen to Doug He's like master Yoda when it comes to amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 'cause ur being noobular wif you're "a tube is a tube" bit. Depending on what you're dropping the tube in, assuming reliability, he's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 I'm actually more like Pai Mei. I like to beat girls with sticks when they practice kungfu Have you got the eyeball snatch thing down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bumhucker Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 The circuit (and output transformer) the tube is sitting in dictates most of the tone, not so much the tube. Put EL34's in a Fender twin reverb and it still sounds Fender/6l6. You can build a circuit with 6L6 tubes that crunches like an EL34 loaded Marshall if you know what you're doing. Vox AC30 with 4 EL84's is smooth and creamy. A Crate Vintage Club 50 with 4 EL84's sounds glassy/tight, very Fender like. Every type of output tube does have it's own sound, but the circuit is critical how it behaves and how the final tone/performance comes out. Never assume how an amp is going to sound based on its tubes. If you haven't played it, you do not know. Carry on Finally a knowledgable post on this subject. I'll admit I didn't know know all that, but I hate hearing people say EL34 amps sound Marshally and 6L6 amps sound like a Fender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 Finally a knowledgable post on this subject.I'll admit I didn't know know all that, but I hate hearing people say EL34 amps sound Marshally and 6L6 amps sound like a Fender. My Marshall has 6550's in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thomasterrible Posted October 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 No you dont get it. I have already PAID this tech a bunch of money, the amp doesnt sound like it should. I have had multiple sources tell me that the power tubes being biased at the wrong level could be the issue. I never wanted anything done but my amp made stock and working again, I sure as hell would not have shelled out the money for the groove tubes had I know about it. I am not going off what the amp tech is telling me but just saying your amp tech is crappy doesnt help me figure out what is going on. I have paid him already and I want to have him fix it to my liking not just lay down a bunch more money to have another tech take a whack at it. My particular amp Mfg says that most of its distortion comes from the power tubes. Since the amp was not repaired keeping everything stock it makes it much more difficult to figure out what the issue is. Smartass replies or jokes may be fun for you but I am trying to get an amp to work right here and those things dont help. It has the same (but new) 12ax7 preamp tubes it used to and the only changes made to the amp are the difference in tubes and the difference in bias. Why is it not rational to think those alterations are the cause?I am working with this tech because I have already paid him money and I am going to make him keep working on the amp for free until it is fixed since I already paid him to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stephan1980 Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 Unfortunately, this is a bad place to come for serious advice about amplifiers. If you now have an adjustable bias just bias the amp while playing so you can hear what sounds good. Chances are if it sounds good it is biased pretty well. But if you bias it too hot then yeah your power tubes will live a short but glorious life. Different bias settings will affect different tubes differently even if they are the same type so you have to do it by ear to get it right IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JPIndustrie Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 LOLOLOL This guy again! HAHAHAHA Look dude. We get it. You spent a lot of money, but shouldn't the fact that you spent a lot of money and you still do not have an outcome you like ring a bell? Common sense. You spent the money, the tech sounds like he fucked it up. Sorry. Live and learn, and then take it to a real tech to have it looked at. Unfortunately YOU dropped the ball by taking it to this guy first and then repeatedly in an effort to 'fix it'. We're trying to help you, and we're telling you that this guy is messing it up with poor technical skills and a bunch of misinformation. The only way out now is the expensive way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thomasterrible Posted October 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 That is pretty much what the tech wants me to do, in fact he said to bring down my guitar and speaker cab with my amp. That is also what I have heard about running the tubes super hot, it will sound awesome for a very short time. I was going to borrow my friends 2x12 mesa cab but it doesnt have vintage 30's like mine so I am just going to bring down my US Jackson KE-2 and the amp and have him adjust the bias while I play but measure it so it falls short of destruction because I would rather it sound great and change the tubes again in 4 months than have it sound like crap for 10 years. I have since spoken to some of my musician friends and they dont think I will need to change back to EL34's. I know for a fact that the bias setting is not nearly what it was when it was stock and non-adjustable. In previous reading about my amp it did say that the distortion came more from my power tubes than most amps do so that may make it more sensitive to bias adjustments. I will find out tomorrow. It really was a great sounding amp before the trouble occured. Now that it has an adjustable bias if the tubes go out again I will buy some for 1/4 the price at GC and do it myself but I had no idea what was wrong with the amp thus taking it to the tech, but for the money I paid I am not going to go elsewhere and pay more, he is going to have to do what he was paid for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thomasterrible Posted October 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 LOLOLOL This guy again! HAHAHAHA Look dude. We get it. You spent a lot of money, but shouldn't the fact that you spent a lot of money and you still do not have an outcome you like ring a bell? Common sense. You spent the money, the tech sounds like he fucked it up. Sorry. Live and learn, and then take it to a real tech to have it looked at. Unfortunately YOU dropped the ball by taking it to this guy first and then repeatedly in an effort to 'fix it'. We're trying to help you, and we're telling you that this guy is messing it up with poor technical skills and a bunch of misinformation. The only way out now is the expensive way. I have only spoken to the amp tech once after bringing the amp home, today, and he said to bring it back and he will fix it. If you spent money on having the motor in your car go totally dead and you took it to an authorized dealer to get it fixed and it drove fine but there was something that you noticed was not quite right when you got home you would not take it back to the shop and have them fix the problem you paid for? You would just go from shop to shop paying out more money? I paid this tech to fix a dead amp and he has brought it back to life and made some things even better than stock. I am not getting enough crunch at low volume so I called him and he said to bring it in and he will fix it, this is the first he has heard of the problem and will drop everything to make it right. I think the post above is correct. You are an idiot. And when you say "we" it is actually only YOU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JPIndustrie Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 I think the post above is correct. You are an idiot. And when you say "we" it is actually only YOU. I am an idiot? Ha. I wasn't the one who managed to fry my map with a Hot Plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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