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A question of free will


OverDriven

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This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.

The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?

Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.

This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.

What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.

I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.

That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.

Thoughts.

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Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven View Post
This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.

The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?

Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.

This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.

What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.

I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.

That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.

Thoughts.

Lots of words dude..to many
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Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven View Post
This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.

The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?

Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.

This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.

What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.

I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.

That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.

Thoughts.

Lots of words dude..to many
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I agree with the majority of this. However what you can control is what "part" of your mind you are thinking with, are you thinking from your logical side, or emotional side, or moral side, etc. This is why we have conflicting thoughts/emotions and can significantly affect the outcome of decisions.
But even still, decisions are still a product of past experiences and knowledge being wieghed out in your head, trying to figure out what will yield the best outcome. Its free will to a degree and also a chain reaction to a degree.

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I agree with the majority of this. However what you can control is what "part" of your mind you are thinking with, are you thinking from your logical side, or emotional side, or moral side, etc. This is why we have conflicting thoughts/emotions and can significantly affect the outcome of decisions.
But even still, decisions are still a product of past experiences and knowledge being wieghed out in your head, trying to figure out what will yield the best outcome. Its free will to a degree and also a chain reaction to a degree.

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Does this account for the chaos theory? When humans act against their desires knowing they are doing so, wouldn't this disrupt the predestined chain of events? It only takes one moment to send everything off course.

People deprave themselves of reward or pleasure in many cultures, of course this could be its own reward.

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Does this account for the chaos theory? When humans act against their desires knowing they are doing so, wouldn't this disrupt the predestined chain of events? It only takes one moment to send everything off course.

People deprave themselves of reward or pleasure in many cultures, of course this could be its own reward.

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Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy View Post
Does this account for the chaos theory? When humans act against their desires knowing they are doing so, wouldn't this disrupt the predestined chain of events? It only takes one moment to send everything off course.

People deprave themselves of reward or pleasure in many cultures, of course this could be its own reward.
No, because they are acting against their desires for reasons based on other events, making it predictable.
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Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy View Post
Does this account for the chaos theory? When humans act against their desires knowing they are doing so, wouldn't this disrupt the predestined chain of events? It only takes one moment to send everything off course.

People deprave themselves of reward or pleasure in many cultures, of course this could be its own reward.
No, because they are acting against their desires for reasons based on other events, making it predictable.
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Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven View Post
This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.

The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?

Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.

This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.

What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.

I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.

That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.

Thoughts.
I think this is worthy of contemplation and depending on who's interpreting this, it can either be very empowering or very dangerous.

An idle-minded human being would latch onto this logic and say something like "then it doesn't {censored}ing matter what I do or what I decide because it was never my will to do so to begin with... {censored} it." An impeccable person would think something more along the lines of "then I will give myself completely to the forces that guide my fate and become the conduit of my own destiny."
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Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven View Post
This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.

The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?

Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.

This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.

What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.

I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.

That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.

Thoughts.
I think this is worthy of contemplation and depending on who's interpreting this, it can either be very empowering or very dangerous.

An idle-minded human being would latch onto this logic and say something like "then it doesn't {censored}ing matter what I do or what I decide because it was never my will to do so to begin with... {censored} it." An impeccable person would think something more along the lines of "then I will give myself completely to the forces that guide my fate and become the conduit of my own destiny."
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no predictability at the level you suggest, but we are wired at birth for certain types of decisions and so forth. e.g. idents separated at birth end up with same clothes, jobs, hairstyle, spouses, etc.

We have a predisposition for life outcomes & don't realize it.

"George Costanza: It became very clear to me sitting out there today that every decision I've made in my entire life has been wrong. My life is the complete opposite of everything I want it to be. Every instinct I have, in every aspect of life, be it something to wear, something to eat - it's all been wrong. "

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no predictability at the level you suggest, but we are wired at birth for certain types of decisions and so forth. e.g. idents separated at birth end up with same clothes, jobs, hairstyle, spouses, etc.

We have a predisposition for life outcomes & don't realize it.

"George Costanza: It became very clear to me sitting out there today that every decision I've made in my entire life has been wrong. My life is the complete opposite of everything I want it to be. Every instinct I have, in every aspect of life, be it something to wear, something to eat - it's all been wrong. "

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Our perception of choice may be only perception and preconceived from the moment the universe came into existence? An interesting question indeed. Doesn't it all come down to a matter of perception then? If so, then it doesn't matter if it was preconceived because we view our decisions as interactive whether they are or not.

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Our perception of choice may be only perception and preconceived from the moment the universe came into existence? An interesting question indeed. Doesn't it all come down to a matter of perception then? If so, then it doesn't matter if it was preconceived because we view our decisions as interactive whether they are or not.

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