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A question of free will

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  • #61
    I've been in the "free will is an illusion" camp for a while. Classical physics does indeed indicate that all events are caused in a deterministic manner. Free will would require that our brains, which are physical objects, somehow be able to step outside of this deterministic system, but there's no justification for that notion. Quantum physics, if it does change any of this, simply tells us that events at the sub-atomic level are probablistic. I don't see how replacing A causes B with A causes B through Z with determinable probablilities really makes free will any more tenable.
    <div class="signaturecontainer">When someone asks if you are a god, you say yes!</div>

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    • #62
      Have you ever doubted anything?



      Then you thought.



      Then there is free will.









      imo.
      <div class="signaturecontainer"><div align="center"><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><i><b><b>Gibson</b> Ibanez <b><font size="3">Diezel</font></b> / Fender / <b>Dan Hall</b></b></i></font></font></div><br />
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      <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Sixtonoize</strong>
      <a href="showthread.php?p=34752397#post34752397" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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      <div class="message">This.<br />
      <br />
      I couldn't have said it better.</div>

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      <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>K-Bizzle</strong>
      <a href="showthread.php?p=44520783#post44520783" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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      <div class="message">Yeah I'm with Abstract here...</div>

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      <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Bob Savage</strong>
      <a href="showthread.php?p=36015624#post36015624" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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      <div class="message">I like your style, and attention to reason.</div>

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      <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>TornadoOfSouls</strong>
      <a href="showthread.php?p=37226088#post37226088" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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      <div class="message">Just don't buy it from Dewy / Musicians Friend.</div>

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      <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>justcrash</strong>
      <a href="showthread.php?p=44580130#post44580130" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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      <div class="message">Winner winner, chicken dinner! <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" class="inlineimg" /></div>

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      </div>
      </div> <i>Great deals with: MHenson, Honkridge, Ledvedder, Rik-Guitarstudi, ***1776***, shane159, chriscnb, LA-Ü-RA, LoopQuantum, exafro, Silvervox325, EdgeOfDarkness, Ricky Bobby, Valtiel, Fretless, 100 watt...</i></div>

      Comment


      • #63
        Have you ever doubted anything?



        Then you thought.



        Then there is free will.









        imo.
        <div class="signaturecontainer"><div align="center"><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><i><b><b>Gibson</b> Ibanez <b><font size="3">Diezel</font></b> / Fender / <b>Dan Hall</b></b></i></font></font></div><br />
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        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Sixtonoize</strong>
        <a href="showthread.php?p=34752397#post34752397" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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        <div class="message">This.<br />
        <br />
        I couldn't have said it better.</div>

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        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>K-Bizzle</strong>
        <a href="showthread.php?p=44520783#post44520783" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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        <div class="message">Yeah I'm with Abstract here...</div>

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        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Bob Savage</strong>
        <a href="showthread.php?p=36015624#post36015624" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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        <div class="message">I like your style, and attention to reason.</div>

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        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>TornadoOfSouls</strong>
        <a href="showthread.php?p=37226088#post37226088" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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        <div class="message">Just don't buy it from Dewy / Musicians Friend.</div>

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        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>justcrash</strong>
        <a href="showthread.php?p=44580130#post44580130" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
        </div>
        <div class="message">Winner winner, chicken dinner! <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" class="inlineimg" /></div>

        </div>
        </div>
        </div> <i>Great deals with: MHenson, Honkridge, Ledvedder, Rik-Guitarstudi, ***1776***, shane159, chriscnb, LA-Ü-RA, LoopQuantum, exafro, Silvervox325, EdgeOfDarkness, Ricky Bobby, Valtiel, Fretless, 100 watt...</i></div>

        Comment


        • #64
          Your environment influences the decision making process...and since what you encounter is random, your decision making process can not be perfectly predictable and predetermined.
          Originally Posted by DToad:

          Lets face it- today's GOP is all about the richest one percent exploiting the dumbest fifty percent.

          Comment


          • #65
            Your environment influences the decision making process...and since what you encounter is random, your decision making process can not be perfectly predictable and predetermined.
            Originally Posted by DToad:

            Lets face it- today's GOP is all about the richest one percent exploiting the dumbest fifty percent.

            Comment


            • #66
              Having the thought that your thoughts are not predetermined may actually be predetermined!!!!!1111







              http://simplehomerecording.com

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              • #67
                Having the thought that your thoughts are not predetermined may actually be predetermined!!!!!1111







                http://simplehomerecording.com

                Comment


                • #68
                  In a Newtonion universe - this is true.

                  But quantum physics suggests that you can never know the exact location of every particle in the universe at any given time.

                  So i guess.......ummm...no.
                  <div class="signaturecontainer">Life is ours. We live it our way.<br />
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                  <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Rada</strong>
                  <a href="showthread.php?p=31211409#post31211409" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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                  <div class="message">... I mean, I wouldn't mind getting on all fours every once in a while if it meant my tuition and rent was taken care of <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/redface.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" class="inlineimg" /></div>

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                  • #69
                    In a Newtonion universe - this is true.

                    But quantum physics suggests that you can never know the exact location of every particle in the universe at any given time.

                    So i guess.......ummm...no.
                    <div class="signaturecontainer">Life is ours. We live it our way.<br />
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                    <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Rada</strong>
                    <a href="showthread.php?p=31211409#post31211409" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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                    <div class="message">... I mean, I wouldn't mind getting on all fours every once in a while if it meant my tuition and rent was taken care of <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/redface.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" class="inlineimg" /></div>

                    </div>
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                    • #70






                      Quote Originally Posted by Markdude
                      View Post

                      Having the thought that your thoughts are not predetermined may actually be predetermined!!!!!1111













                      And it boils down to



                      "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am."



                      Beyond that is purely conjecture.
                      <div class="signaturecontainer"><div align="center"><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><i><b><b>Gibson</b> Ibanez <b><font size="3">Diezel</font></b> / Fender / <b>Dan Hall</b></b></i></font></font></div><br />
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                      <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Sixtonoize</strong>
                      <a href="showthread.php?p=34752397#post34752397" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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                      <div class="message">This.<br />
                      <br />
                      I couldn't have said it better.</div>

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                      <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>K-Bizzle</strong>
                      <a href="showthread.php?p=44520783#post44520783" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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                      <div class="message">Yeah I'm with Abstract here...</div>

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                      <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Bob Savage</strong>
                      <a href="showthread.php?p=36015624#post36015624" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
                      </div>
                      <div class="message">I like your style, and attention to reason.</div>

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                      <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>TornadoOfSouls</strong>
                      <a href="showthread.php?p=37226088#post37226088" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
                      </div>
                      <div class="message">Just don't buy it from Dewy / Musicians Friend.</div>

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                      <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>justcrash</strong>
                      <a href="showthread.php?p=44580130#post44580130" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
                      </div>
                      <div class="message">Winner winner, chicken dinner! <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" class="inlineimg" /></div>

                      </div>
                      </div>
                      </div> <i>Great deals with: MHenson, Honkridge, Ledvedder, Rik-Guitarstudi, ***1776***, shane159, chriscnb, LA-Ü-RA, LoopQuantum, exafro, Silvervox325, EdgeOfDarkness, Ricky Bobby, Valtiel, Fretless, 100 watt...</i></div>

                      Comment


                      • #71






                        Quote Originally Posted by Markdude
                        View Post

                        Having the thought that your thoughts are not predetermined may actually be predetermined!!!!!1111













                        And it boils down to



                        "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am."



                        Beyond that is purely conjecture.
                        <div class="signaturecontainer"><div align="center"><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><i><b><b>Gibson</b> Ibanez <b><font size="3">Diezel</font></b> / Fender / <b>Dan Hall</b></b></i></font></font></div><br />
                        <div class="bbcode_container">
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                        <div class="bbcode_postedby">
                        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Sixtonoize</strong>
                        <a href="showthread.php?p=34752397#post34752397" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
                        </div>
                        <div class="message">This.<br />
                        <br />
                        I couldn't have said it better.</div>

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                        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>K-Bizzle</strong>
                        <a href="showthread.php?p=44520783#post44520783" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
                        </div>
                        <div class="message">Yeah I'm with Abstract here...</div>

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                        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Bob Savage</strong>
                        <a href="showthread.php?p=36015624#post36015624" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
                        </div>
                        <div class="message">I like your style, and attention to reason.</div>

                        </div>
                        </div>
                        </div> <div class="bbcode_container">
                        <div class="bbcode_quote">
                        <div class="quote_container">
                        <div class="bbcode_quote_container"></div>

                        <div class="bbcode_postedby">
                        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>TornadoOfSouls</strong>
                        <a href="showthread.php?p=37226088#post37226088" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
                        </div>
                        <div class="message">Just don't buy it from Dewy / Musicians Friend.</div>

                        </div>
                        </div>
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                        <div class="bbcode_postedby">
                        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>justcrash</strong>
                        <a href="showthread.php?p=44580130#post44580130" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
                        </div>
                        <div class="message">Winner winner, chicken dinner! <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" class="inlineimg" /></div>

                        </div>
                        </div>
                        </div> <i>Great deals with: MHenson, Honkridge, Ledvedder, Rik-Guitarstudi, ***1776***, shane159, chriscnb, LA-Ü-RA, LoopQuantum, exafro, Silvervox325, EdgeOfDarkness, Ricky Bobby, Valtiel, Fretless, 100 watt...</i></div>

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                        • #72
                          What you are searching for is your animal self versus your human self.



                          We are both tied to our instincts and disconnected from them. So that is the eternal battle. I have found both very amazing AND so constraining.



                          A civilized human has a balance. It both lives life on the edge, and within social morals. It can be tough to admit one is fallible, that we ALL make mistakes. Just admit that you do...have some humbleness and humility. But enjoy the moment too...and realize that every moment serves the next.





                          The real problem with humans is that we think we know everything, that our experience and process is somehow better than the 3 billion other humans. That we know better. It's something in our mind...I can't quite put my finger on it. Some sort absoluteness. It's almost like we can't view ourselves and how stupid we really are.





                          But hey...just asking these questions is a victory. Thinking.



                          Edit: One of my challenges is leaving my regret behind. I always wish I would make the perfect decision. To act perfectly. To always have perfect grace. Of course I don't. Of course I make mistakes. But I hate that I have to carry some of these mistakes with me forever.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            What you are searching for is your animal self versus your human self.



                            We are both tied to our instincts and disconnected from them. So that is the eternal battle. I have found both very amazing AND so constraining.



                            A civilized human has a balance. It both lives life on the edge, and within social morals. It can be tough to admit one is fallible, that we ALL make mistakes. Just admit that you do...have some humbleness and humility. But enjoy the moment too...and realize that every moment serves the next.





                            The real problem with humans is that we think we know everything, that our experience and process is somehow better than the 3 billion other humans. That we know better. It's something in our mind...I can't quite put my finger on it. Some sort absoluteness. It's almost like we can't view ourselves and how stupid we really are.





                            But hey...just asking these questions is a victory. Thinking.



                            Edit: One of my challenges is leaving my regret behind. I always wish I would make the perfect decision. To act perfectly. To always have perfect grace. Of course I don't. Of course I make mistakes. But I hate that I have to carry some of these mistakes with me forever.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              it's not even a matter of physics. you can't control your own thoughts, can't stop an urge or craving, can't fully control your body.



                              your brain chemistry is what it is, and you do what you do because of it.



                              a fine example is someone who smokes, but can't quit no matter how badly they want to or how much they hate it (these people do exist, i suspect there are some among us)...or any other addict, really. they continue a behavior in spite of the negative consequences. how could a being with free will choose to do something that can cause them so much discomfort or even death? simple, remove the free will and the question needs not be asked.



                              as i said earlier, i find there to be similarities between the adherence to free will and the adherence to religion...in some ways, xian religion hinges on free will. without it, the whole house of cards falls down. i mention this because i think trying to have a conversation about the existence of free will is about as productive as an athiest and a priest discussing the finer points of faith.
                              <div class="signaturecontainer">got a question about TITAN amps? ask me <br />
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                              • #75
                                it's not even a matter of physics. you can't control your own thoughts, can't stop an urge or craving, can't fully control your body.



                                your brain chemistry is what it is, and you do what you do because of it.



                                a fine example is someone who smokes, but can't quit no matter how badly they want to or how much they hate it (these people do exist, i suspect there are some among us)...or any other addict, really. they continue a behavior in spite of the negative consequences. how could a being with free will choose to do something that can cause them so much discomfort or even death? simple, remove the free will and the question needs not be asked.



                                as i said earlier, i find there to be similarities between the adherence to free will and the adherence to religion...in some ways, xian religion hinges on free will. without it, the whole house of cards falls down. i mention this because i think trying to have a conversation about the existence of free will is about as productive as an athiest and a priest discussing the finer points of faith.
                                <div class="signaturecontainer">got a question about TITAN amps? ask me <br />
                                <a href="http://www.titanamplifiers.com" target="_blank">here</a> <br />
                                <br />
                                <a href="http://www.titanamplifiers.com" target="_blank">my website</a><br />
                                <br />
                                <a href="http://www.myspace.com/titanamps" target="_blank">TITAN AMPS on myspace</a><br />
                                <br />
                                <br />
                                My band:<a href="http://www.myspace.com/lastcomesgunfire" target="_blank">Last Comes Gunfire</a></div>

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