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A question of free will

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  • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
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    I believe there is but I'm so far from an expert in this field I just wanted to add my uninformed opinion.





    So essentially the argument boils down to how random things truly are at their core? Similar to how using a random formula in Excel still yields a predetermined pattern for cell selection? No matter how many levels the programmers can introduce there is still no way to make a black and white computer think illogically and truly select at random?




    What is "truly random"? Computer programs can use pseudorandom number generators. I have also heard of using radioactive sources as as means of generating randomness. Does it make a difference to you?

    Comment








    • Quote Originally Posted by Rear Naked
      View Post

      The OP used determinism to argue against free-will, but was incorrect in using physics to imply determinism. However, we could possibly have no free-will even in a non-determined universe.



      The argument against free will does not need to take determinism or indeterminism into account. IMO the interesting idea is free-will vs non-free-will. Determinism should be discussed after you agree there is no free-will...but 20th century physics discredits determinism from the start.




      Indeed. When people, usually religious people, argue for free will, stop them and make them explain where this free will comes from -- what the mechanism behind it is. It will turn out to be God or magic.

      Comment








      • Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks
        View Post

        What is "truly random"? Computer programs can use pseudorandom number generators. I have also heard of using radioactive sources as as means of generating randomness. Does it make a difference to you?




        I have no idea. I already said I don't know what I'm talking about and that my opinion carries no weight.

        Comment


        • none of us are posting on this thread by use of our own free will. we were predetermined to partake in the nonsensical.
          <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="2"><div align="center">Ibanez JS-1000 / Ibanez RG3-120</div><div align="center">535Q &gt; Keeley Compressor &gt; Xotic Custom Shop BB Preamp &gt; Hartman Flanger</div><div align="center">Laney VH100R <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/cool.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Cool" class="inlineimg" /> / Laney GH50L <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/evil.gif" border="0" alt="" title="evil" class="inlineimg" /></div><div align="center">(MXR 10-band EQ &gt; Line 6 DL-4)</div><div align="center">Geezer Sound Co. 2x12 (80w ceramic WGS BL-80)</div><br />
          Also own: 1966 Fender Pro Reverb with Weber Californias, Dano CTO-1, Keeley SD-1, EHX D.EM <br />
          <br />
          <font size="1">Yes that's my girlfriend.</font></font></div>

          Comment








          • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
            View Post

            I have no idea. I already said I don't know what I'm talking about and that my opinion carries no weight.




            Don't back up so quickly, there's a cliff behind you!

            Comment








            • Quote Originally Posted by Mike LX-R
              View Post

              none of us are posting on this thread by use of our own free will. we were predetermined to partake in the nonsensical.




              I agree, but is it nonsense?

              Comment


              • I don't believe in free will. I believe in a very strong illusion of free will.



                You can read this, lift your arm up and say "See, I chose to do that of my own free will". I say your were predestined to choose to do that and that the action was already laid out in a timeline before it happened.



                A smart enough hypothetical "invisible observer" would have been able to utterly predict that future event using only clues from the present moment.
                <div class="signaturecontainer"><div align="center"><font size="3"><font face="Century Gothic"><div class="bbcode_container">
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                <div class="message">Or you can try living on the southside of Chicago on eight dollars a month and learn some real blues phrases.</div>

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                • Quote Originally Posted by Jesse G
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                  A smart enough hypothetical "invisible observer" would have been able to utterly predict that future event using only clues from the present moment.




                  How would they suss out quantum uncertainty?



                  And a question for those folks who understand quantum mechanisms, because I don't: how much quantum uncertainty manifests itself into the macro world? Doe it make any difference?

                  Comment








                  • Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks
                    View Post

                    I agree, but is it nonsense?




                    it's a discussion about an idea, most of which is rooted in speculative logic. it's all fun for the theater of the mind... but there will be no resounding consensus, and ultimately our lives will not be affected by any would-be conclusions. we'll continue to plug along in the same manner, all of us maintaining a different version of a truth we're willing to believe, none of it making much impact on how we live.



                    yes, I say it non-offensively. it's nonsense.
                    <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="2"><div align="center">Ibanez JS-1000 / Ibanez RG3-120</div><div align="center">535Q &gt; Keeley Compressor &gt; Xotic Custom Shop BB Preamp &gt; Hartman Flanger</div><div align="center">Laney VH100R <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/cool.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Cool" class="inlineimg" /> / Laney GH50L <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/evil.gif" border="0" alt="" title="evil" class="inlineimg" /></div><div align="center">(MXR 10-band EQ &gt; Line 6 DL-4)</div><div align="center">Geezer Sound Co. 2x12 (80w ceramic WGS BL-80)</div><br />
                    Also own: 1966 Fender Pro Reverb with Weber Californias, Dano CTO-1, Keeley SD-1, EHX D.EM <br />
                    <br />
                    <font size="1">Yes that's my girlfriend.</font></font></div>

                    Comment








                    • Quote Originally Posted by Jesse G
                      View Post

                      A smart enough hypothetical "invisible observer" would have been able to utterly predict that future event using only clues from the present moment.




                      Modern physics is not determinate. In other words, nobody will be able to predict.

                      Comment








                      • Quote Originally Posted by Mike LX-R
                        View Post

                        none of us are posting on this thread by use of our own free will. we were predetermined to partake in the nonsensical.




                        Except that we are not predetermined.

                        Comment








                        • Quote Originally Posted by Mike LX-R
                          View Post

                          it's a discussion about an idea, most of which is rooted in speculative logic. it's all fun for the theater of the mind... but there will be no resounding consensus, and ultimately our lives will not be affected by any would-be conclusions. we'll continue to plug along in the same manner, all of us maintaining a different version of a truth we're willing to believe, none of it making much impact on how we live.



                          yes, I say it non-offensively. it's nonsense.




                          No one has ever changed their mind, about their view of the world and what they believe in?

                          Comment








                          • Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks
                            View Post

                            No one has ever changed their mind, about their view of the world and what they believe in?




                            does changing one's mind change the way they'll continue to live in this case?
                            <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="2"><div align="center">Ibanez JS-1000 / Ibanez RG3-120</div><div align="center">535Q &gt; Keeley Compressor &gt; Xotic Custom Shop BB Preamp &gt; Hartman Flanger</div><div align="center">Laney VH100R <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/cool.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Cool" class="inlineimg" /> / Laney GH50L <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/evil.gif" border="0" alt="" title="evil" class="inlineimg" /></div><div align="center">(MXR 10-band EQ &gt; Line 6 DL-4)</div><div align="center">Geezer Sound Co. 2x12 (80w ceramic WGS BL-80)</div><br />
                            Also own: 1966 Fender Pro Reverb with Weber Californias, Dano CTO-1, Keeley SD-1, EHX D.EM <br />
                            <br />
                            <font size="1">Yes that's my girlfriend.</font></font></div>

                            Comment








                            • Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks
                              View Post

                              No one has ever changed their mind, about their view of the world and what they believe in?




                              does changing one's mind change the way they'll continue to live in this case?
                              <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="2"><div align="center">Ibanez JS-1000 / Ibanez RG3-120</div><div align="center">535Q &gt; Keeley Compressor &gt; Xotic Custom Shop BB Preamp &gt; Hartman Flanger</div><div align="center">Laney VH100R <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/cool.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Cool" class="inlineimg" /> / Laney GH50L <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/evil.gif" border="0" alt="" title="evil" class="inlineimg" /></div><div align="center">(MXR 10-band EQ &gt; Line 6 DL-4)</div><div align="center">Geezer Sound Co. 2x12 (80w ceramic WGS BL-80)</div><br />
                              Also own: 1966 Fender Pro Reverb with Weber Californias, Dano CTO-1, Keeley SD-1, EHX D.EM <br />
                              <br />
                              <font size="1">Yes that's my girlfriend.</font></font></div>

                              Comment








                              • Quote Originally Posted by Mike LX-R
                                View Post

                                does changing one's mind change the way they'll continue to live in this case?




                                You can't imagine a life change if someone stops believing in free will???

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