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  • A question of free will

    This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.



    The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?



    Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.



    This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.



    What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.



    I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.



    That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.



    Thoughts.
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  • #2






    Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven
    View Post

    This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.



    The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?



    Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.



    This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.



    What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.



    I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.



    That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.



    Thoughts.






    Lots of words dude..to many
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    • #3






      Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven
      View Post

      This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.



      The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?



      Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.



      This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.



      What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.



      I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.



      That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.



      Thoughts.






      Lots of words dude..to many
      <div class="signaturecontainer"><font color="Red"><font size="2"><b>Guitars:</b> </font></font><br />
      2012 Gibson Les Paul 50's Tribute Goldtop<br />
      2011 Ibanez RG3550MZ Galaxy Black<br />
      <font color="Red"><font size="2"><b>Amps:</b> </font></font><br />
      Marshall 78' JMP MKII 2204<br />
      Peavey XXX 4x12 Slant<br />
      <font color="Red"><font size="2"><b>Effects:</b> </font></font><br />
      Fulltone OCD<br />
      MXR Chorus 3 Knob<br />
      DOD Phasor 401 <br />
      MXR Carbon Copy <br />
      Barber Tone Press<br />
      Korg PitchBlack Tuner<br />
      ToneBone Bigshot ABY/EFX<br />
      MKS Pedal Pad II<br />
      <br />
      <br />
      <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" class="inlineimg" /><img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/wave.gif" border="0" alt="" title="wave" class="inlineimg" /><img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/eek.gif" border="0" alt="" title="EEK!" class="inlineimg" /><img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/mad.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Mad" class="inlineimg" /> <br />
      <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/cool.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Cool" class="inlineimg" /><img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/love.gif" border="0" alt="" title="love" class="inlineimg" /><img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/cry.gif" border="0" alt="" title="cry" class="inlineimg" /><img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/freak.gif" border="0" alt="" title="freak" class="inlineimg" /><img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/wave.gif" border="0" alt="" title="wave" class="inlineimg" /></div>

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      • #4
        tl;dr
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        <div class="quote_container">
        <div class="bbcode_quote_container"></div>

        <div class="bbcode_postedby">
        <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>charveldan</strong>
        <a href="showthread.php?p=42984874#post42984874" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
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        Comment


        • #5
          tl;dr
          <div class="signaturecontainer"><font color="blue">Crook Custom Telecaster - Blue Sparkle Paisley</font><img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/love.gif" border="0" alt="" title="love" class="inlineimg" /><br />
          Fender American Telecaster - 3-Tone Burst<br />
          Mesa/Boogie Stiletto Trident Stage I<br />
          Mesa/Boogie 2-12 Recto Cab<br />
          Peavey Bandit<br />
          Peavey Special 112<br />
          Xotic, Fulltone, Ibanez Effects<br />
          TC Electronic iB Modified G-System <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/redface.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" class="inlineimg" /><br />
          <div class="bbcode_container">
          <div class="bbcode_quote">
          <div class="quote_container">
          <div class="bbcode_quote_container"></div>

          <div class="bbcode_postedby">
          <img src="images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>charveldan</strong>
          <a href="showthread.php?p=42984874#post42984874" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>
          </div>
          <div class="message">Drunk guy through a PV, that's Rock-n-Roll.<img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/Totally_jammin_out.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Jammin'" class="inlineimg" /></div>

          </div>
          </div>
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          <br />
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          • #6
            I agree with the majority of this. However what you can control is what "part" of your mind you are thinking with, are you thinking from your logical side, or emotional side, or moral side, etc. This is why we have conflicting thoughts/emotions and can significantly affect the outcome of decisions.

            But even still, decisions are still a product of past experiences and knowledge being wieghed out in your head, trying to figure out what will yield the best outcome. Its free will to a degree and also a chain reaction to a degree.
            If you think this forum sucks visit here:<br>http://www.guitarampboard.com/index.php started by user guitarbilly74

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree with the majority of this. However what you can control is what "part" of your mind you are thinking with, are you thinking from your logical side, or emotional side, or moral side, etc. This is why we have conflicting thoughts/emotions and can significantly affect the outcome of decisions.

              But even still, decisions are still a product of past experiences and knowledge being wieghed out in your head, trying to figure out what will yield the best outcome. Its free will to a degree and also a chain reaction to a degree.
              If you think this forum sucks visit here:<br>http://www.guitarampboard.com/index.php started by user guitarbilly74

              Comment


              • #8
                Does this account for the chaos theory? When humans act against their desires knowing they are doing so, wouldn't this disrupt the predestined chain of events? It only takes one moment to send everything off course.



                People deprave themselves of reward or pleasure in many cultures, of course this could be its own reward.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Does this account for the chaos theory? When humans act against their desires knowing they are doing so, wouldn't this disrupt the predestined chain of events? It only takes one moment to send everything off course.



                  People deprave themselves of reward or pleasure in many cultures, of course this could be its own reward.

                  Comment


                  • #10






                    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
                    View Post

                    Does this account for the chaos theory? When humans act against their desires knowing they are doing so, wouldn't this disrupt the predestined chain of events? It only takes one moment to send everything off course.



                    People deprave themselves of reward or pleasure in many cultures, of course this could be its own reward.




                    No, because they are acting against their desires for reasons based on other events, making it predictable.
                    If you think this forum sucks visit here:<br>http://www.guitarampboard.com/index.php started by user guitarbilly74

                    Comment


                    • #11






                      Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
                      View Post

                      Does this account for the chaos theory? When humans act against their desires knowing they are doing so, wouldn't this disrupt the predestined chain of events? It only takes one moment to send everything off course.



                      People deprave themselves of reward or pleasure in many cultures, of course this could be its own reward.




                      No, because they are acting against their desires for reasons based on other events, making it predictable.
                      If you think this forum sucks visit here:<br>http://www.guitarampboard.com/index.php started by user guitarbilly74

                      Comment


                      • #12






                        Quote Originally Posted by Nick H
                        View Post

                        No, because they are acting against their desires for reasons based on other events, making it predictable.




                        Maybe. I just posed the question. I don't have the answer to his or my questions.

                        Comment


                        • #13






                          Quote Originally Posted by Nick H
                          View Post

                          No, because they are acting against their desires for reasons based on other events, making it predictable.




                          Maybe. I just posed the question. I don't have the answer to his or my questions.

                          Comment


                          • #14





                            If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.



                            thats not what the laws of physics say at all, nevermind quantum physics
                            <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="1">VoodooAmps Hex mod Marshall JMP 1978, hand built<br />
                            Global, Midboost, Feel, Bottom, Savage/Brutal mods</font></div>

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                            • #15





                              If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.



                              thats not what the laws of physics say at all, nevermind quantum physics
                              <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="1">VoodooAmps Hex mod Marshall JMP 1978, hand built<br />
                              Global, Midboost, Feel, Bottom, Savage/Brutal mods</font></div>

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