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Loop, thefyn, other songwriting dudes: songwriting advice


Ovid9

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So, I've gotten better at listening to songs and separating out the different parts. Parts I used to assume were guitar are actually drums or base or keyboard, or they ARE guitar but a different track.

I'm still not great at it but I'm getting better, being a conscious listener.

Anyway, the question I have for songwriting dudes is this: How do you come up with the guitar parts that aren't the main riff. The back ground stuff or the rhythm stuff?

I can write (badly) stuff like a main riff or powerchord rhythm stuff, but the secondary stuff.....how the hell do you come up with that? Is it just a matter of listening to a bunch of music and practicing a lot and then you eventually learn to write out what you hear in your head?

Any advice for a noob (outside of practicing which I always need to do more of).

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Quote Originally Posted by SexWithRobots

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I do a lot of songwriting for my band and drums and bass help a lot for writing verses and stuff

 

Like...how does it help? How do you get to the point where you can have the drums and bass and you write the verses? Like...do you flesh out the basic chord progression and then when the drums and bass are doing their thing work out the specifics?
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Quote Originally Posted by Ovid9 View Post
Like...how does it help? How do you get to the point where you can have the drums and bass and you write the verses? Like...do you flesh out the basic chord progression and then when the drums and bass are doing their thing work out the specifics?
Everyone writes differently...But what I do is I come up with a riff, and I hear it in my head how I want it to sound. Once I work that section out, be it the verse or chorus, I write drums and bass to it as I hear it in my head...Then I listen to that several times until I get an idea of where it should go from there.

If I want the guitars to drop out, I focus on a bass and drum line that can carry the main riff...Doesn't have to be the same riff the guitar plays, but something that matches up well with the rhythm/chords of the songs. At that point I'll decide if I want to add some light guitars over it for effect, or if the bass and drums carry it enough.

I build my songs up that way...I think the important thing is to hear what you want it to sound like and then construct the song in that manner.

A good way to do it is to come up with your main riff, and then come up with a chorus/verse riff that's different. Get a few riffs and start building it up.
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Thanks guys, hopefully this thread continues to develop a bit. smile.gif

Pretty much what I'm reading is "Learn your guitar better. Learn how to make the sounds you're hearing in your head better." smile.gif

A lot of stuff I write is simplistic because my guitar roots are in butchering punk songs when I first picked up guitar. But, there's other stuff in there that I'm just not fluent enough on my guitar to get out. At least not in a remotely timely manner. icon_lol.gif

But this is good stuff and gives me lots to think on and work with. Thanks dudes!

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Quote Originally Posted by Ovid9 View Post
Thanks guys, hopefully this thread continues to develop a bit. smile.gif

Pretty much what I'm reading is "Learn your guitar better. Learn how to make the sounds you're hearing in your head better." smile.gif

A lot of stuff I write is simplistic because my guitar roots are in butchering punk songs when I first picked up guitar. But, there's other stuff in there that I'm just not fluent enough on my guitar to get out. At least not in a remotely timely manner. icon_lol.gif

But this is good stuff and gives me lots to think on and work with. Thanks dudes!
You'd be surprised man...Real surprised. If you hear something in your head that you don't think you could play...Get your guitar out and play it really freaking slow. Figure out the notes, then the timing, and then just see if it will work for you!

As Billy said, if your songs just consist of power chords, who's to say you need anything else? With roots in Punk, I think that would be perfectly acceptable. Now if you said you were going for some Pink Floyd stuff, and all you heard in your head was power chords, I'd question what Pink Floyd you'd been listening to biggrin.gificon_lol.gif
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Quote Originally Posted by KCTigerChief View Post
You'd be surprised man...Real surprised. If you hear something in your head that you don't think you could play...Get your guitar out and play it really freaking slow. Figure out the notes, then the timing, and then just see if it will work for you!

As Billy said, if your songs just consist of power chords, who's to say you need anything else? With roots in Punk, I think that would be perfectly acceptable. Now if you said you were going for some Pink Floyd stuff, and all you heard in your head was power chords, I'd question what Pink Floyd you'd been listening to biggrin.gificon_lol.gif
icon_lol.gif Actually pink floyd is one of the bands that really has helped me appreciate the textures in music. In high school I said some absolutely idiotic things about Pink Floyd (hey, I'm sure we all said idiotic things about music stuff in high school). I honestly cannot fathom being able to write music that amazingly full.

The play it slow thing is good. Of course, I play everything slow, but I know what you're saying. biggrin.gif
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Quote Originally Posted by Ovid9 View Post
icon_lol.gif Actually pink floyd is one of the bands that really has helped me appreciate the textures in music. In high school I said some absolutely idiotic things about Pink Floyd (hey, I'm sure we all said idiotic things about music stuff in high school). I honestly cannot fathom being able to write music that amazingly full.

The play it slow thing is good. Of course, I play everything slow, but I know what you're saying. biggrin.gif
I would love to see how many actual tracks are in a Pink Floyd session...{censored} is amazing. It's also very good stuff to listen to for songwriting in my opinion biggrin.gif
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Quote Originally Posted by RaceU4her View Post
are you jamming with a drummer or by yourself?
Currently just playing with myself. Er, by myself. Hopefully have a bassit & other guitarist to jam with next month.

Drummers are scarce around here. Ok, drummers that don't want to play deathcore and actually have a space to practice their drums in are rare around here. frown.gif

Seriously, I got 3 emails from "drummers" saying "If you have a place for me to set up my drums cause they're currently in storage..." er...what are you practicing on now? They're probably fine, but no, sorry, I DON'T have a place for you to set up your drums I have a tiny 8x10 corner of my basement full of my crap. icon_lol.gif
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I like to start with lyrics and a melody, sung along to simple chords on an acoustic. I'll record that, then use it as the basis of the arrangement. At that stage I'll have ideas for solo sections and riffs etc but not fleshed out in any real way. I also play drums so i usually know what i want them to do. At some point early on, usually once the drums and extra vocL harmonies are recorded, I'll mute the acoustic so it's basically just the vocal melody and drums, along with maybe a riff recorded here and there that I think is integral to the song.

After that, I just start improvising the rest. I like working this way because you end up doing stuff that works and supports the vocal melody, it makes you think in terms of harmonies, counterpoint, complimenting textures etc rather than starting with block chords and building up from there. It also lets you see that sometimes it's ok to be very sparse.

I guess it's a bit like painting, the vocal usually wants to be at the front so start with that then fill in the rest behind it rather than the other way round.

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Drum machine or drum software. Prepare to give up the guitar for a few weeks to get into it, then you won't need a drummer to create drum tracks for yourself. You can use them to show a drummer what you have in mind when you find one.

I have an old Roland R-70 drum machine that I use for creating drum parts. It's a bit tedious and I'm sure there are easier ways to do it, but it allows "Step Recording" so that I don't have to become a drummer, I can just write patterns and it recreates them. I program patterns as main rythyms and then create fills based on those to sub in for variety. String the patterns together to create songs. Push play or record it and there's your drum part.

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Quote Originally Posted by Rock Hardness View Post
Drum machine or drum software.
This. Grab a Boss DR 880 or an Alesis SR 18. You can also program bass lines with these machines.

One way to write songs with programmed drums is to jam along with a preset pattern and keep trying different riffs until one fits the pattern. Then repeat the process with other patterns. Then string the patterns together to make a little song. If things don't match, move the patterns and riffs around. Repeat this process until you have something you like.

Eventually you will come up with riffs that don't fit the patterns and at that point you will have to get into actually programming drums to fit your riffs. That comes a bit later once you get really comfortable with the drum machine or software.
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I played in Concert Band/Wind Ensemble for 10 years from grade school through most of college. If you want some embellishment ideas just listen to some classical pieces. Seriously some of the stuff those old geezer composers came up with was brilliant and a lot of it you can mold to fit your own tunes and style.

If you're playing live though a lot if those fluff parts don't make a huge difference. But if you ever get down to recording a few songs, they can add SO MUCH texture and make a song 10000x more interesting.

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Quote Originally Posted by Rock Hardness View Post
Drum machine or drum software. Prepare to give up the guitar for a few weeks to get into it, then you won't need a drummer to create drum tracks for yourself. You can use them to show a drummer what you have in mind when you find one.


i was gonna say exactly this if you are playing by yourself, even just a metronome will help get things together. recording everything would prob help too so you can go back and jam background ideas. after a while you'll have a bank of riffs and then its just piecing them all together into songs. it is a million times easier with an actual drummer though
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Oh yeah. Get Guitar Pro if you haven't got it already. With it you can write down your riffs and backing track and play over it, make changes, repeat.

But don't fall victim to writing "guitar pro music", ie. just using the program and never touching your instrument in the process.

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Quote Originally Posted by Ovid9 View Post
So, I've gotten better at listening to songs and separating out the different parts. Parts I used to assume were guitar are actually drums or base or keyboard, or they ARE guitar but a different track.

I'm still not great at it but I'm getting better, being a conscious listener.

Anyway, the question I have for songwriting dudes is this: How do you come up with the guitar parts that aren't the main riff. The back ground stuff or the rhythm stuff?

I can write (badly) stuff like a main riff or powerchord rhythm stuff, but the secondary stuff.....how the hell do you come up with that? Is it just a matter of listening to a bunch of music and practicing a lot and then you eventually learn to write out what you hear in your head?

Any advice for a noob (outside of practicing which I always need to do more of).
If I struggle with a melody for a solo or vocals, I jam or sing a slow solo/hook over it. Once I come up with something that fits I start laying vocals/fancy up the solo over it.

Another way is I jam over it and record the jam. Play it back, keep a good section (even if it is a second) and record again. Then I re-record the entire solo my learning the whole thing from the parts.
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You keep metioning you as a power chorder. You have a lot of flavour right under your fingers. Take one of your power chord songs you have in the work. Now keep the same progression and slow it down or speed it up....but only use partial chords now. Two or three strings at a time. You will find all kinds of embelisments to the theme. As others have said to. Listen to your head. Also, Always listen to the world around you. There are some great sounds around us if you listen. Get them in your head and slowly transfer them to the fingerboard. Study of the Circle of Fifths can really unlock songwriting potential in yourself too. And don't be afraid to try anything and sometimes the best comes when you throw all to the wind and just try anything.

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Man, this is something better answered in a book, than a post, lol.

There are definitely mechanics to songwriting. Themes are really important. Establishing a theme, then learning when to emphasize and deemphasize that theme is really important.

Most good songs have a recurring theme or hook, and then sections that lay back for contrast, and then something counter to support it. In a reductive pop sense, think of this as hook/verse/chorus. Staying in the key of the hook, but alternating the rhythm arrangement and laying back a bit usually creates a decent bed for a verse.

I also write lyrics that support the vibe of the song. In other words, I make a tune, them try to get a picture from the tune to pen lyrics from. I think this makes the lyrical relationship to the music feel less "forced". There are times when it's the other way around, but not often.

Another thing I like to do is over-write the hell out of a music structure. If I have a crapload of parts to push and pull from, there are more ideas to work with.

Lastly, nothing has been left undone. If you are writing a certain style, or aspire to, immerse yourself in it. Get in the headspace of the style, and let osmosis take over.


Oh, and play. A lot. Most of my best stuff happens when I'm not focused on making it happen. Your subconscious is really powerful when you let it be. I come up with crazy stuff when I'm sitting around watching TV with an acoustic on my lap, because I'm not "trying".

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Quote Originally Posted by LoopQuantum View Post
Man, this is something better answered in a book, than a post, lol.

There are definitely mechanics to songwriting. Themes are really important. Establishing a theme, then learning when to emphasize and deemphasize that theme is really important.

Most good songs have a recurring theme or hook, and then sections that lay back for contrast, and then something counter to support it. In a reductive pop sense, think of this as hook/verse/chorus. Staying in the key of the hook, but alternating the rhythm arrangement and laying back a bit usually creates a decent bed for a verse.

I also write lyrics that support the vibe of the song. In other words, I make a tune, them try to get a picture from the tune to pen lyrics from. I think this makes the lyrical relationship to the music feel less "forced". There are times when it's the other way around, but not often.

Another thing I like to do is over-write the hell out of a music structure. If I have a crapload of parts to push and pull from, there are more ideas to work with.

Lastly, nothing has been left undone. If you are writing a certain style, or aspire to, immerse yourself in it. Get in the headspace of the style, and let osmosis take over.


Oh, and play. A lot. Most of my best stuff happens when I'm not focused on making it happen. Your subconscious is really powerful when you let it be. I come up with crazy stuff when I'm sitting around watching TV with an acoustic on my lap, because I'm not "trying".
That is probably one of the biggest things. If your sitting there stressing over trying to a write a great song that second its not gonna happen.
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No offense to Loop, but he's trying to over analyze the topic.. Which I'll prolly also do.lol.. But really the heart of a song, for me, had no method.. It has no guidelines..

I do agree with trying to create a correlation between the music and lyrics.. That can have a strong effect and definitely bring songs into a different light.. That's not always easy to do, and I don't think its necessary to write a headbanging song, but its always nice when you do find a common link between the two.

And I agree with letting the subconscious do the work.. I never NEVER sit down to write a song.. And I write a pretty good number of songs. They all come from a feeling or a riff that inspires me to continue with it.. Its funny, cause while I jam everyday I'll come up with literally dozens of riffs or ideas that I consider cool and I'll record them and just save them for when I'm "in the mood". I have literally thousands of riffs and ideas on tapes, hard drives, my phone.. Everywhere.. I rarely ever go back and use them.. Because so much of my creation is done with a certain feeling. And when I write a song while I'm in that mood, I cement that feeling into a song. When I come back to some random riffs I recorded while jamming, its like the notes are cool, but I can't recapture the feel.. Which is why much of those idea never get realized..

That was more about raw creation. For me, the heart of a song is never thought out.. Its a feeling.. Now after I have a rough creation of the song I'll let my mind delve in and maybe adjust some parts, get the arrangements a little more fluid etc..

But that's my way, and I feel it strikes the balance from creating from feel and using my mind to just steer..

Now some guys create basically completely from their mind.. I know a guy who is the main songwriter in a world touring act on a big label. He's very prolific writer, but he does it all from sitting in front of his computer. Now who am I to really be critical of his method if its garnered him success and bunch of fans.. But while I think he's a good musician and a good songwriter, I never feel like he's music strikes that nerve in me.. I never feel it.. It doesn't make me want to sit back and dream or get so energized that I feel like conquering the world.. The best music to me is the one that entices the inner spirit and energy.. And to me, that comes from raw emotion and creation.. You can't teach that. You just have to find out how to capture it.. Cause we all have raw emotion, so I believe everyone can actually create something with that energy, but its hard to capture it and keep that sustained for a whole song.

Creating from just analyzing and looking at a computer screen is thinking mans music. I believe all the early composers were generally coming from that aspect.. The ones who were actually prolific at an instrument usually created the most compelling classical music.. Otherwise, most of that was written by their minds, which is just another form of creation. I appreciate it, I listen to it, but when I want something that gets me going rarely do I reach for the music that makes me think.. If that makes sense.. Now I've over analyzed the properties of music creation! Lol

Basically my advice is to just create.. You have to want to be a good songwriter and with that comes the fact you'll never be satisfied. Writing music is sort of cruel. Back when I was in my teens and my dreams were to be the next best metal musician I tried writing songs.. And I did write a few, but most of the time I just couldn't finish them. I had a ton of parts of songs.. As I got older, I learned to not think about it is much and just create what comes out of me.. I started finishing more songs, but I was never really satisfied with them, even when people were telling me they were good. After a few years of writing that level of music, I final created an album where I felt I had stepped it up a notch and they were good songs that moved me. of course, I felt some degree of accomplishment, but I wanted it be better and on and on.. In truth, I get the most satisfaction out of creating and once I'm finished with it, rarely do I sit back and dwell on my accomplishment.. I'll be happy and I enjoy listening to it in the car or on other people stereos or posting it on the Web for a few days, but soon after I feel I can do better. So the desire to create more is basically what I'm left feeling...

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No offense to Loop, but he's trying to over analyze the topic.. Which I'll prolly also do.lol.. But really the heart of a song, for me, had no method.. It has no guidelines..

I do agree with trying to create a correlation between the music and lyrics.. That can have a strong effect and definitely bring songs into a different light.. That's not always easy to do, and I don't think its necessary to write a headbanging song, but its always nice when you do find a common link between the two.

And I agree with letting the subconscious do the work.. I never NEVER sit down to write a song.. And I write a pretty good number of songs. They all come from a feeling or a riff that inspires me to continue with it.. Its funny, cause while I jam everyday I'll come up with literally dozens of riffs or ideas that I consider cool and I'll record them and just save them for when I'm "in the mood". I have literally thousands of riffs and ideas on tapes, hard drives, my phone.. Everywhere.. I rarely ever go back and use them.. Because so much of my creation is done with a certain feeling. And when I write a song while I'm in that mood, I cement that feeling into a song. When I come back to some random riffs I recorded while jamming, its like the notes are cool, but I can't recapture the feel.. Which is why much of those idea never get realized..

That was more about raw creation. For me, the heart of a song is never thought out.. Its a feeling.. Now after I have a rough creation of the song I'll let my mind delve in and maybe adjust some parts, get the arrangements a little more fluid etc..

But that's my way, and I feel it strikes the balance from creating from feel and using my mind to just steer..

Now some guys create basically completely from their mind.. I know a guy who is the main songwriter in a world touring act on a big label. He's very prolific writer, but he does it all from sitting in front of his computer. Now who am I to really be critical of his method if its garnered him success and bunch of fans.. But while I think he's a good musician and a good songwriter, I never feel like he's music strikes that nerve in me.. I never feel it.. It doesn't make me want to sit back and dream or get so energized that I feel like conquering the world.. The best music to me is the one that entices the inner spirit and energy.. And to me, that comes from raw emotion and creation.. You can't teach that. You just have to find out how to capture it.. Cause we all have raw emotion, so I believe everyone can actually create something with that energy, but its hard to capture it and keep that sustained for a whole song.

Creating from just analyzing and looking at a computer screen is thinking mans music. I believe all the early composers were generally coming from that aspect.. The ones who were actually prolific at an instrument usually created the most compelling classical music.. Otherwise, most of that was written by their minds, which is just another form of creation. I appreciate it, I listen to it, but when I want something that gets me going rarely do I reach for the music that makes me think.. If that makes sense.. Now I've over analyzed the properties of music creation! Lol

Basically my advice is to just create.. You have to want to be a good songwriter and with that comes the fact you'll never be satisfied. Writing music is sort of cruel. Back when I was in my teens and my dreams were to be the next best metal musician I tried writing songs.. And I did write a few, but most of the time I just couldn't finish them. I had a ton of parts of songs.. As I got older, I learned to not think about it is much and just create what comes out of me.. I started finishing more songs, but I was never really satisfied with them, even when people were telling me they were good. After a few years of writing that level of music, I final created an album where I felt I had stepped it up a notch and they were good songs that moved me. of course, I felt some degree of accomplishment, but I wanted it be better and on and on.. In truth, I get the most satisfaction out of creating and once I'm finished with it, rarely do I sit back and dwell on my accomplishment.. I'll be happy and I enjoy listening to it in the car or on other people stereos or posting it on the Web for a few days, but soon after I feel I can do better. So the desire to create more is basically what I'm left feeling...

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When I'm writing, my general rule of thumb is to finish an entire song with just an acoustic guitar strumming chords. If you can just strum chords and sing and it sounds good, it's a good song. Then you can add the other stuff later. As far as the extra parts, It's just a matter of experience and playing with {censored}. For me, I always try to hum what I'm thinking...and recreate it with guitar or bass or whatever else.

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