Harmony Central Forums
Announcement Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

Really struggling with this Laney Ironheart. Need help!

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse









X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    With tube amps, unless you get 100% of your tone from your preamp (like your mako) you're always gonna be dependent on volume. Part of why the Marshall 2203 was such a rocking sounding amp when cranked was because it was essentially identical to a Plexi but the two "channels" (hi and normal) are running in series rather than parallel. That's most of it anyway. The MV is really primitive but that's not the reason they need to be loud. They need to be loud because they're sill basically a Plexi, but they've got a little bit more gain coming from the preamp vs. a plexi where it's a clean preamp and the PI and power section are crunching.

    If you add just one more gain stage you can get quite a bit more saturation at low levels, but you lose the magic touch and tactile feedback you get from the Plexi lineage.

    Does that make sense?

    FWIW I add a PPIMV plus the regular MV when I build one and it makes them much better. A depth mod is another worth while mod.


    I remember a friend of mine stating that the bogner fish sounded more marshall in the preamp alone than any other marshall he played and he did have a lot of marshalls. I think he discussed it with alex flouros or something and he thought the same?

    I always wondered why exactly Van halen chased so much preamp distortion in the 5150 series. And if all of the package can be moved to the preamp a bit? Taking the power amp by a percentage out of the equation. Personally I wouldn't have any trouble accepting the power amp as a dynamic filter, a compressor of sorts combined with another gain stage. This of course IS by definition touch sensitive at full tilt, as the signal varies by your pick attack.
    Why not adding that to the preamp topology and feed it to a more controlled power amp...

    I'd want dynamics ideally to translate the playing as an acoustic guitar does (a good one at least), letting the attack and the way you play do the shaping instead of choosing a "marshall" high mid or a "mesa" strong low mid voice to boot but perhaps that is just me. I am really tired of hearing the marshall thing going on or the boogie thing going either as a player or as a listener, all the time.
    "is this tone obtainable using the HD500 or Axe Fx? Overall, for convenience and volume control, should I buy the Axe Fx over actual tube amps? I don't plan on playing loud; just playing at home and recording on my Mac. Thanks man, you are awesome!


    short answer: no...

    long answer: no way..."

    Comment


    • #77
      I remember a friend of mine stating that the bogner fish sounded more marshall in the preamp alone than any other marshall he played and he did have a lot of marshalls. I think he discussed it with alex flouros or something and he thought the same?

      I always wondered why exactly Van halen chased so much preamp distortion in the 5150 series. And if all of the package can be moved to the preamp a bit? Taking the power amp by a percentage out of the equation. Personally I wouldn't have any trouble accepting the power amp as a dynamic filter, a compressor of sorts combined with another gain stage. This of course IS by definition touch sensitive at full tilt, as the signal varies by your pick attack.
      Why not adding that to the preamp topology and feed it to a more controlled power amp...

      I'd want dynamics ideally to translate the playing as an acoustic guitar does (a good one at least), letting the attack and the way you play do the shaping instead of choosing a "marshall" high mid or a "mesa" strong low mid voice to boot but perhaps that is just me. I am really tired of hearing the marshall thing going on or the boogie thing going either as a player or as a listener, all the time.


      Bogner is sort of the idealized "Marshall" sound in some ways. Super congested mids and lots of bark. I like them quite a bit.

      The problem with doing an extensive preamp then feeding it to the power amp and maintaining your dynamics and touch sensitivity is every gain stage acts like a limiter. In the way that an OD pedal adds compression to your signal so does any gain stage in an amp. The more you tailor the tone and the more gain you add in the preamp section the more dynamic response you sacrifice. That's more or less the way it works. People have been working to find ways around that for decades now and some have done better than others. Some high gain amps are much more dynamic and touch sensitive than others.

      So amps like your typical classic Marshall tend to be really primitive by todays standards but they deliver the goods when they're cranked up on stage. Toss an OD in front of them if you want modern. Something like a 5150 that's more or less a rip-off of the SLO is a whole different ball of wax. Stellar design. One of the most amazing amp designs ever. I'm a total noob when it comes to that circuit though.
      Originally Posted by Elemenope


      You get 1 free punch...They can't hit you back..Call the cops..Anything. Who??







      Originally Posted by RSBro


      madryan











      Rack building thread...

      http://acapella.harmony-central.com/...ies-rig...-Pix

      Amp Packing Tutorial

      http://acapella.harmony-central.com/...ial&highlight=

      Comment


      • #78
        Is it a rip off though? Some differences make people think otherwise, I'd like to know your oppinion.

        I googled the same thing recently and got on a thread about the dual rec/SLO possible modification, somebody mentioned this about the 5150:

        "The 5150 isn't even close, circuit-wise (or tone-wise IMO). It also only has one cathode-follower - non-DC-coupled, after the tone stack and driving the FX loop - which is surprising considering that the DC-coupled cathode-follower tone stack is a major part of the 'Marshall-type' tone, where you would think the amp evolved from... but no, it's totally different, it's like the engineers never even looked at a Marshall/Soldano/Mesa schematic and started again from scratch."

        As far as the ironheart, does anybody have a schematic? I'd be plate driven tonestack after distortion and cold biased as hell.

        Is this the tone the OP struggles with?

        "is this tone obtainable using the HD500 or Axe Fx? Overall, for convenience and volume control, should I buy the Axe Fx over actual tube amps? I don't plan on playing loud; just playing at home and recording on my Mac. Thanks man, you are awesome!


        short answer: no...

        long answer: no way..."

        Comment


        • #79
          Yeah I know a lot of amps that are like that. Peavey's are definitely like that, you can use same settings for bedroom and live and they will work.

          British amps like Marshalls, Laneys etc, are normally not like that and need a good dose of volume to sound their best. I used to hate my 800 2210 at home volume, well... not hate, but it was far from ideal. It was a great live amp though.


          I definitely agree with you on british style amps but I'd even say the same for american types like peavey and mesa too, honestly. A perfectly ballsy and cutting 800 tone in a band mix can sound boxy and lame on it's own if you're used to expecting a wall of sound in your bedroom type scneario. I'd still dial in the 5150 with the band and record a rehearsal etc. and make changes if necessary. A lot of things are with amps at gig volumes are perceived way differently in or out of a band mix. Levels of gain, bass, cut, mids etc. all depend on how those frequencies and dynamics interact with the other instruments IMO.

          Comment


          • #80
            Well, you certainly have all given me good input and ALOT to think about in my quest for good tone with this amp.

            Perhaps a lot of my problem is that I have been so used to "easy EQ" amps, and with all of the tweaking and **************** with this amp, I just get overwhelmed. I have tried a bunch of drive pedals and stuff with it and I'm thinking maybe I need to go back to ground zero with the amp and start again with no pedals, all EQ set to nominal, and start all over again.
            I had such good experience with the old school 5150 and the VH that I expected an easy ride with this thing.

            As you have all stated, there are SOOO many variables in getting "you're tone", that it could be just 1 of 200 things that is holding back the tone I seek.

            Comment


            • #81
              Well, you certainly have all given me good input and ALOT to think about in my quest for good tone with this amp.

              Perhaps a lot of my problem is that I have been so used to "easy EQ" amps, and with all of the tweaking and **************** with this amp, I just get overwhelmed. I have tried a bunch of drive pedals and stuff with it and I'm thinking maybe I need to go back to ground zero with the amp and start again with no pedals, all EQ set to nominal, and start all over again.
              I had such good experience with the old school 5150 and the VH that I expected an easy ride with this thing.

              As you have all stated, there are SOOO many variables in getting "you're tone", that it could be just 1 of 200 things that is holding back the tone I seek.


              If by "nominal" you mean 12 o'clock, that won't work with the Laney.

              Start with mid and treble at ZERO and bass at 12 o'clock. That's muddy as hell, so gradually work your way up from there, until you have just the right amount of treble and mids. Then adjust the bass.
              http://www.guitarampboard.comLike my band on FB: http://www.facebook.com/thefew1All prices include shipping to ConUS.

              Comment


              • #82
                The less knobs, the better, for me lol.
                Originally Posted by Rampage


                **************** cleans, play distortion?









                Originally Posted by RiffDaemon


                The scratchy high-end sounds like a wreck in Excitebike









                Originally Posted by buddhapaugh


                I had a nightmare experience like yours, Nerine, when I was in my late 20's/early 30's and was doing the tag-team thing with my buddy over the toilet. Now that was something----







                Guitars:
                Fender-Hamer-Michael Kelly-Starfield-Ibanez


                Amps/Cabs
                Drive-Eminence-Electro Harmonix-Fender-Jet City-Kustom-VHT-Yamaha

                FX
                ISP-Keeley-Pigtronix

                Comment


                • #83


                  I need to dig up a schematic then. I suck at reading schematics. I don't remember who it was who told me they were roughly equivalent circuit layout wise but the Dual Rec is also allegedly similar. Again, before I shove both feet further into my mouth I'd really need to look into it more.
                  Originally Posted by Elemenope


                  You get 1 free punch...They can't hit you back..Call the cops..Anything. Who??







                  Originally Posted by RSBro


                  madryan











                  Rack building thread...

                  http://acapella.harmony-central.com/...ies-rig...-Pix

                  Amp Packing Tutorial

                  http://acapella.harmony-central.com/...ial&highlight=

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    If by "nominal" you mean 12 o'clock, that won't work with the Laney.

                    Start with mid and treble at ZERO and bass at 12 o'clock. That's muddy as hell, so gradually work your way up from there, until you have just the right amount of treble and mids. Then adjust the bass.


                    This is exactly how I was able to dial in the GH. I took the treble and mid completely out and worked it in slowly. With both of my Laneys I found I had to clear my mind and what I thought I knew about dialing in an amp, and let the amp "tell me" where to start from.
                    Ibanez JS-1000 / Ibanez RG3-120535Q > Keeley Compressor > Xotic Custom Shop BB Preamp > Hartman FlangerLaney VH100R / Laney GH50L (MXR 10-band EQ > Line 6 DL-4)Geezer Sound Co. 2x12 (80w ceramic WGS BL-80)
                    Also own: 1966 Fender Pro Reverb with Weber Californias, Dano CTO-1, Keeley SD-1, EHX D.EM

                    Yes that's my girlfriend.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      This! Laneys are different when it comes to tweaking. They also need to be loud to open up, that could be a big part of your issue. 5150's aren't a bedroom amp either though they need some volume also.



                      I agree! this is the only way to find out just how good the amp sounds is with a live band! They are designed that way. When I got my Mark V after trading my Bogner Shiva I wasn't so sure if the Mark was for me...but i knew from experienced that there is no way to really judge an amp unless you take it out with a band or at least a loud drummer.

                      Anyway, when i test drove with with my drummer. That amp just woke up! It sounded amazing as advertised! After that jam session, I knew it was a keeper!

                      If you've already taken it out with a band and feel the same way? Then the decision is easy.....time to let it go and get something else.
                      Good References: Negative Theory, AriBoiangiu, Voivod, Blackba, Jimiaxe, Doublebarrel, tsunamijesus, kennyinct, BillDncn, Joejpiano, drjustinjames, Newworldman. ontariomaximus, DannyM, Madryan, Norcal_GIT_r, Wish, Archers6, Phatgirl, JJblacksheep, Fusion1, EndTime, Usrname, Mattacaster, Ejendres, Iron parrot



                      Laney VH100R/Mesa Boogie Mark IV/V/ Triple Rectifier G
                      www.reverbnation.com/cradlefish

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        It's funny, because most all of I've heard of the Peavey XXX sounds completely awesome to me.
                        Wish I could have gotten one back in the day.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          I'll trade you straight up for a mint 6505+, no ****************.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            I would trade my Laney, a couple decent pedals and some cash for a new Peavey Triple XXX II.
                            That thing is killer.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              I personally didn't like that amp at all
                              ----------------------------------------
                              1981 Gibson Les Paul Custom- Wine Red
                              1971 Gibson Les Paul Goldtop
                              1995 Gibson Les Paul Classic
                              2010 Fender American Tele
                              2011 Fender Am. Std Strat
                              1984 Marshall JCM 800 2203
                              1974 Marshall JMP Superlead
                              Orange Rockerverb 100 MK II
                              Peavey JSX
                              Peavey XXX
                              Line 6 Spider IV 75 (2) for the cover band
                              Orange cabs
                              Beer & Whiskey

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                I would trade my Laney, a couple decent pedals and some cash for a new Peavey Triple XXX II.
                                That thing is killer.


                                1. Sell Laney.
                                2. Buy JSX(which is what the XXX-II is)
                                3. ????????
                                4. Profit.
                                Gear list
                                Ibanez: RG750 / RG565 / XPT700
                                Charvel: USA So-Cal / Sunburst Mutt / Flame-top Mutt
                                Laney Ironheart 60H
                                Jet City JCA22H
                                Peavey Transformer 112
                                Avatar Vintage 2-12 (Tonespotter/Swamp Thang)
                                Digitech RP1000
                                Some pedals(ISP, Korg, EHX, Modtone)
                                Pictures - Video Clips

                                Comment



                                Working...
                                X