I'll try to help anyone with amp modeling software questions.

[Agreed]

I may be opening myself up for way more than I'm prepared to handle, but I spend a lot of time working with software amp modelers. A full list is available at my blog, linked in my signature; I'd also recommend reading my blog as I have quite a bit of amp modeler stuff on there that might answer your question. I have a search widget and categories to help with navigation but on the list of things to do soon is to make a new page indexing the whole blog, which will make keeping track of everything and future updates more streamlined.

 

So what can I help you with? Well, a lot of people get a little overwhelmed working with amp modelers. Since I've made myself into at least a familiar intermediate user of all of the ones that I use, maybe I can help! Obviously that means I can't do much for Digidesign 11, since I don't use it, and my ability to provide out and out tech support is severely limited - I'd prefer to keep questions to amp modeler internal stuff only, please.

 

Feel free to just talk about amp modelers here, too, I'm always up for a good chat on the tech that I love.

[slight-return]

mighty kind of ya - gotta say the new forum is off to quite the good start!

 

Are we talking programming the algs themselves or configuring the parameters of existing algs?

 

I had a sound art chameleon for a while and played with simple delays and such, but never really explored (or understood in any functional detail) any modelling -- after a while I knda decided I didn't want to be hitched to an orphan (I've done enough of that as it is )

 

but I'd certainly be interested in learning more abt developing the algs (just for educational interest)

[Agreed]

If you want to learn about the behind-the-scenes stuff, head on over to www.guitarampmodeling.com - there are some great folks who make their homes their or at least come to visit, including Ken McLaren (AcmeBarGig plugins, the guy behind the superb DIG2.0 and soon 2.5, Cyan, Redshift Pickup Replacer, and other cool plugs - I've done some beta testing for him when he was starting up and he really knows his stuff), LePou (SoloC 1.12, and soon SoloC Fullstack which is going to be monstrous, take my word for it!), Aradaz (OUR Cabinet Sim 1.07 is my favorite of his but he has a variety of great sounding amp modelers for free, too, some of which were used on Dimi Nalbantov's great instrumental albums), and Nick Crow (Wagner and Wagner MkII are classics, but he's recently added the absolutely amazing 7170 and 8505, which simulate a 5150 and a 6505 respectively with startling accuracy)... And others, too. Great guys over there who, when they can, will help you out if you ask nicely. It's a great community and I've been happy to be a part of it, and to continue to be! KVR is another good community although it's more for general stuff, but there are a lot of technologically savvy folks there who can point you in the right direction, I'm sure.

 

This thread is going to be more about using amp modelers, though. I will help however I can, and if I don't know something well enough to offer advice I will admit that candidly rather than mislead you. If I use the software you're having trouble with (or a POD, since one of my software collection is Pod Farm which has all the models on the PODX3) I will even - provided I have free time - try to help you set up a patch that'll work for what you need. Of course that's subject to the question of whether I have time to do it, which I wish I could guarantee but I can't always. Anything I can do, I will do, and I will do my best to help all comers no matter what you need.

 

Whew, alright, sorry for the long post. But there'll be plenty more to come, as anyone who has met me in Amps or Effects knows. It's my way

[Anderton]

Here's a tip: The person who programmed the presets for the modeler you're using probably used a different pick, different playing style, maybe different string gauges, different pickups, and played a different type of music! In other words, it's unlikely they were designed with you in mind.

 

For example, I use 0.010 high E and play with a thumbpick, and tend to hit the strings pretty hard. When I first checked out Line 6 GearBox patches, I thought the distorted patches all sounded awful - until I pulled back on the drive. I'd be willing to bet that most of the presets were done by someone who played with a flat pick and used 0.009 high E.

[Anderton]

Here's another tip. Just as I master songs for the best dynamics and tonal balance, I do the same thing with tracks that have amp sims.

 

The first image shows a setup for a British 60s rock type of sound. The bass rolloff gives more of an open-back cabinet sound, while the high-frequency rolloff is more about taming any residual "fizziness." The deep notch is particular to the pizeo out of Gibon's Dark Fire, which has a resonance about 1.44kHz. The lesser notch takes out some frequencies in the vocal range to avoid competing with the vocals, and the slight upper midrange hump lets the guitar cut a little more through a mix.

 

The second image is for what I call a "neoscoop" sound -- sort of a scoop, but not quite as "90s" sounding. Looking at the picture I realized I should have done an audio example because it looks like nothing would make it through that EQ alive, but it sounds quite cool.

 

The third image is for more of a rockabilly sound. I went for a somewhat more even response, but added a bit of an upper midrange boost, cratered the highs, and as with the first example, notched out a bit of the vocal range.

 

Note that all of these have compressors as well.

 

You could probably do a lot of these adjustments in the amp sim, but the EQ Eight in Ableton Live is very capable, predictable, and precise - just the kind of EQ processor you'd want for "mastering."

 

I'm working on an article that describes this process in more detail, but hopefully gets across the concept well enough that you can experiment on your own.

[Agreed]

I also prefer to use external plugins for important mix tasks like EQ and compression. I use T-Racks 3 Deluxe, and especially T-Racks 3 Singles - I especially love the OptoComp and the Fairchild and Pultecs are close enough to the original hardware for my needs - in conjunction with a smattering of quality freebies and some of the excellent tools that come packaged with my DAW of choice, REAPER 3. One parametric linear phase EQ is as good as another, and every DAW should have workable compression, so you're wise to listen to Mr. Anderton (any time, but here, too!).

 

However there are also places where it's not a bad idea to check out your modeler's included effects and dynamics processors. For example, most quality comp plugins might not give you what you're after for guitar on input into the amplifier model itself, so you might want to check out your modeler's Dyna-Comp model (etc.; TH1 1.1 has a lovely bunch of compressors, very flavorful which is what you want in front of your amp a lot of times, hard to get the right balance of imperfections with modern studio plugs!).

 

I generally scrap the presets. They can be useful for those looking to acquaint themselves with the software because often the presets will take you on a sort of exciting whirlwind tour of what the software can do. That's all well and good, but in few cases will the presets take you on a measured walk down "this sounds perfect" avenue. Avail yourself of them to familiarize yourself with how the makers of the software intend stuff to be used, and to get an idea how things sound, and then immediately start making your own. As Mr. Anderton said, you never know what a preset was made with. Some software tries to compensate a bit by labeling or even providing meta-data tagging to help you understand what presets are intended to be used where, but frankly even if you know it's "Bridge HB" that doesn't mean your Jackson with an EVO in the bridge is going to sound good if the guitar used to make it was a Les Paul with a Burstbucker.

 

Abandon all presets ye who enter here. I'll help you craft new ones as best I can. I have a number of guitars with different configurations so chances are I can put myself in the rough ballpark and give you a place to start if you're just TOTALLY stumped. But it's a much more rewarding and informative experience for you to do it yourself, with input from others as needed; that's how you'll really learn what's going on in your software. If you've invested in amp modeling software you're likely going to be using it for some time to come, so why not make it as pleasant and easy on yourself as possible by taking the time to really get to know it?

[AaronF]

Hey Agreed, I was wondering if you have gotten to spend any time with the JamVox. I just played one the other day and was blown away. The sounds that you get are great, but it doesn't quite have the amount of models that Pod Farm does. Also, I really don't like how every amp has the same control panel on the JamVox, whereas the Line 6 seems to have the original panel that the amp has (am I right here?); but it still sounds totally believable and convincing. The Guitar extraction feature is great, and some of the recording features are cool too. I don't know much about the software the Line 6 comes with, but I'm sure it is pretty cool.

 

I had bought a M-Audio Black Box and have hated the thing ever since, terrible purchase. The amp models are horrible and I've always had latency issues. I'm a bit afraid to get the Line 6 because I'm not sure if it has loads of amps that are all kind of close, to where the JamVox you have a few, but can get damn near dead-on with the right amount of tweaking. The monitor that comes with it sounds pretty good too.

 

Sorry for my rambling, just thinking out loud I guess. Anyway, since you seem to be a bit more of an expert on the subject, I'd just really like to know how you compare these two products, as they both are in the same price range and have most of the same functions.

[Agreed]

I agree that the Black Box just sounds like crap. Really, really mediocre modeling unit.

 

You know, I need to shoot Vox an email and ask about getting a JamVox in for review. I've always loved the Vox modeling amps, they seem to get the tone "right" to my ears out of all the modeling combos out there, and while the ToneLab is getting a bit long in the tooth and could use a full revamping with the new amp models (the short version they released not long ago sounds great, but it lacks the features and sophistication of the full thing).

 

I can however speak on Pod Farm. First, just having the panel doesn't really mean anything - whether it has a unique graphic behind it or not isn't related to how the DSP sounds And Line6's faceplates are pretty much just skins anyway. Overloud TH1 1.1+ has just one Amp module graphic for all of its amps (and all of its amps are fully modeled, with all channels/switches available), and it has great sound quality, to give you an example. Back to Pod Farm, though - I have somewhat mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it is not as sophisticated or accurate as a lot of other modern software. One behavior in particular bugs me because it is symptomatic of something peculiar going on under the hood: the high gain amps not only still pass signal with the Preamp gain at zero, but they're also still often quite distorted. The lower-than-insanely-brutal-gain models vary in their behavior; some are more realistic than others and pass progressively less signal as you get the preamp gain really low, even to the point of near silence, but some still pass a lot of signal with the preamp gain all the way down.

 

Compare that to any amp in the Amplitube 2 range of products - when you reduce the preamp gain all the way, the amplifier passes no signal, which I consider to be the authentic behavior. That Line6's amps vary on that tells me that they are not modeling the full dynamic range of the circuit on their amp models, but rather a restricted range. This is comparable to other floor modelers, and in fact Zoom's customer support once confirmed that they only model a limited range of the amp's gain; the reason is mainly a lack of horsepower on the CPUs the units use, since they have to run the amp sim in addition to having room for any of the effects it has to be used at the same time. We should be seeing changes in that soon, if they choose to take advantage of the more powerful DSP chips becoming available and more affordable, but right now the other software has a clear advantage over Line6 in the realism of their gain behavior and the apparent range of the circuit that they model across the board. Since some Pod Farm amps do seem to have a range of cleanish to dirty tones on the gain knob, I can't say for sure that ALL of the amps model a limited dynamic range, but any of them doing so is a mark against the realism of the amps in absolute terms.

 

That said, Pod Farm does have some very good sounding amp models. It's one thing to care about authenticity and another to let your ears get side-tracked by your brain, worrying only about whether this or that is realistic instead of wondering whether it sounds good or not. I think that there is a sort of "house sound" to Line6's amp models in various gain categories that is difficult to change or dial out. It helps to reduce ~5.6-5.8khz with the parametric EQ, but there is a certain "flavor" to the distorted amps that is distinctly Line6 and which might be recognizable in your recordings.

 

Pod Farm excels in offering a wide range of effect types and models, both recreations of classic and popular units as well as original effects. I think their effects are generally great, even the Wahs which often sound pretty lame in other floor units. However, there's another area in which Pod Farm shows its marriage to the limitations of the floor unit. You are not free to place as many effects as you want wherever you want, as in most modern software; things have a certain place that they go, and that's the only place you can put them. You aren't able to put, for example, two dirt pedals in a row into an amplifier, which I find to be quite a limitation since just as in the physical world, in some other software great results can be had from stacking two complimentary pedals into a good sounding, well tuned amp. If you're not used to the freedom of other amp modeling software, this might not strike you as much of a limitation, but in comparison it's kind of a big one.

 

If you're going with one of the Pod Farm combo packs with an interface built in, know that they work really well with Pod Farm but less so with other software because Line6 employs some proprietary stuff to get the latency extremely low with their own software, which other software can't access. There should be standard low-latency drivers available as well.

 

I mentioned Amplitube stuff earlier, and I guess I'll mention it again. I believe they're still doing a promotion with the release of their StealthPedal unit, where you can buy the StealthPedal and get quite a lot of software with it. It could be a good thing for your needs, but you'll want to check its features against the Pod Farm package you're looking at to make sure. Frankly Amplitube 2 and on have excellent sound quality and I tend to load X-Gear first when I'm trying to get a sound, because I find it easy to work with and I have a good history of getting great sounds pretty quickly with it. The reason you might want to check it out is because if they're still running the promotion, you get some general software to go with it, plus the full version of Amplitube Metal which has a GREAT Marshall model (not a modern high-gain one, but the precursor to the JCM800), a very warm, chimey clean model (Triple Rec Clean - seriously, I use this model for jazzy stuff), and then three higher gain models. It also has a great package of distortion pedals and effects, including a vintage Muff, some classic Boss overdrives and distortions, a killer RAT model, MXR Flanger, and a bunch more. Since Stealth Pedal works both as a low-latency, high quality audio interface for any software you like, as well as a midi controller with expansion options, you can build around that starting point and end up with a great, flexible setup not too far down the line.

 

However, Pod Farm is comprehensive, and the Line6 interfaces are not bad units, especially if you need full home studio functionality on a budget. You will get good sounds from Pod Farm, though it can be frustrating at times trying to pick the right model for your sound. The quantity of amp models is impressive but you will find that they tend to be relatively inflexible, meaning you need to really get to know the sound of ones you find yourself gravitating towards; given that certain "sameness" I referenced earlier, you'll want the best fit from the start to begin tweaking the tone for your needs, and that means going through the list until you find one that sounds right. You can't always trust your knowledge of real-world amps because the Line6 models often differ from their physical inspirations, more so than a lot of their competition. But with Line6 you're buying a whole package, and it is a polished one that will give you a lot of tools at your disposal. That in itself is valuable, because you'll get to try your hand at a lot of different things thanks to the sheer variety offered. Plenty of great songs have been recorded using Line6 for the guitar and bass tones. In the end it's up to you what matters most in a modeler.

 

Sorry for the very long post

[AaronF]

Sorry for the very long post

 

Don't be sorry at all! That was a post that was extremely dense in information. You pretty much answered every question I was going to ask, and the questions would have been too befuddled to know how to ask.

 

What you said about the Line 6 stuff is exactly what I was getting at. It seems they like to go after a "jack of all trades, master of none" thing with their modeling products, and then just pack it with a lot of models (although they do sound great when you are doing what they do best). I remember the Pod XT Live being like that. The Vox ToneLab was popular then and had less models, but I remember feeling that the ToneLab had less features to offer, but it did better with the full spectrum of sounds across the board. I guess it depends on if you are a plug-and-play type who keeps it simple, or a tweaker who likes the flexibility. I also notice that "sameness" you mentioned in some of the youtube vids I've been watching.

 

I'll have to check out that StealthPedal. Judging from your post I think the JamVox will beat out the Line 6 as far as my needs go, so I'm going to have to see what the StealthPedal has to offer and compare it to the JamVox.

 

And yes, you should call them and see if they will send you one for a review. I think you will be impressed with the sounds. It, like the Line 6, won't let you do multiple dirt pedals or anything fancy like that. You basically get a few types of pedal options (wah, dirt, reverb, delay, noise reduction) and you can chose one from each category and put it in the order you want; you can't pick two of any category. I also wish they included the Chandler Tube Driver. IMO, they are missing a couple of classic pedals.

[Anderton]

Gotta put in a good word for Black Box, as I'm a huge AdrenaLinn fan. I agree that the amp models are waaay lacking in the BB. But if you want to do tempo-synched stuff, it's pretty cool. Only recently has Guitar Rig been able to do the same kind of thing.

 

The amp models in the AdrenaLinn III are a lot better, but to me that's not what the AdrenaLinn is all about. It's like Lexicon's PCM-70 - it was never meant to do reverb until people realized that trying to sell something with "Lexicon" on it that didn't do reverb would be commercial suicide. The reverbs are my least favorite part of that unit, but the chorusing is killer.

[Anderton]

Oh, and one other AmpliTube comment: Their AmpliTube Fender is