General and Starter Feedback: Mad World Cover

[Jay1020]

Sorry if I double posted this (I will delete the other one if I see it, I got a "Working...." prompt that never finished).

 

Hey everyone! I'm new to this forum. I've been lurking a while now, and like what I see. I'm a super beginner at singing, and I wanted to see if I could get some general feedback or beginner feedback that could help me get started. I'll throw it out there, I suck. I did a quick cover (which personally I think sounds hideous ). The link is below.

 

What I know so far:

 

1. This mic is the Turtlebeach paradise headset. That's all I have laying around right now.

 

2. I haven't quite found my timbre yet...I'm learning slowly until I can afford a vocal coach.

 

3. I'm not quite comfortable with this song yet, which I thought would be perfect for any rookie mistakes to come out. I've been working on things like breath control and using the siren technique to expand my registers a bit, as well as speaking words clearly, and some other stuff.

 

I still have a lot to learn, but I want to learn how to sing because I'm learning guitar, and I love to sing along with my favorite songs. Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

 

 

 

 

[Jay1020]

Here's an updated version. I used a different mic and was able to put the music in using audacity, hopefully it sounds better

[kickingtone]

Nothing beginner about your sense of pitch, as far as I can tell. You are hitting even the shortest syllables, which a lot of beginners swallow or lose accuracy on. And you have a decent, solid timbre to work with.

 

I am not familiar with the song, so I checked out releases on YouTube. I definitely prefer the Tears For Fears original over the Gary Jules cover (although I am not a fan of the song as a whole). They are a great example of two different interpretations of the same song -- two quite different vibes and energy, both well delivered.

 

If following the pitch of the song isn't proving to be a challenge, you can start looking at how you shade your voice. There are different ways to emphasize or stress a note, apart from pitch (determined for you) and volume (chosen by you). You can thin the note, brighten it, darken it, or add weight to it, etc. Switching between the different shades is what gives the song dynamic and your chosen vibe. The challenge is getting all those types of shade to work independently and promptly. In both the Tears For Fears and Gary Jules renditions, I hear a lot of emphasis achieved by "thinning and brightening" key notes, without much change in volume. Jules uses inflexion at the same time (which weakens everything, imo).

 

The change of mic between your two clips is interesting. You could probably learn from both mics. Getting the best out of a weaker mic can be quite a useful challenge. And I think that your a cappella version is just as useful as the mixed version. There's nowhere to hide with a cappella, and I think you've made a decent job of it.

[Jay1020]

Awesome, so detailed! I will process this and work on making the changes necessary, and I'll come back later with another cover. Thanks so much!

[CosmicDolphin]

Hey good start...things I noticed...( not saying I could do it much better ...had a go at it myself if you want to compare notes:) )

 

Pitching is very good... I would say although it sounds like the key is lower than the original ? Have you tried it at the original key, I think it makes for a more compelling place in the typical male voice.

 

At first I thought It sounds a bit too breathy to me or like you sang it a bit quietly....but actually when I tried it myself it seems to suit the style of the music so I think you made the right choice stylistically.

 

There are spots where you sing the melody different..is this on purpose for style or not?, They are...

 

22s ..missed the last note of the run on faces

 

33s ..left out one of the notes in nowhere..same on expression at 44s

 

49s..the 2nd note of sorrow is different ( I think by changing it , it loses some of starkness / simplicity of the original melody )

 

1.02 "Dreams" is the wrong note and " best I've ever had " are all quite different..in fact the chorus is all over the place compared to the original melody. You're singing notes in the right scale but weakening the melody IMHO by doing so.

 

1.27 " Mad World" bit highlights that it should be in a higher key as it sounds like you are dipping real low for it.

 

Hope that helps, I think potentially you have a good voice there...if this is your " Super Learner " place then you are already starting some way ahead of many folks who would like to sing.

 

I like this song..I don't think I quite know it well enough but I was a big fan of the original Tears For Fears song back in the day.

 

Here is my attempt..I must stress it was all one take ( although not my first take..I had to figure a few things out ) and I haven't added any FX it's just the raw vocal , but there is a compressor built into my mic preamp so that may have kicked in at times.

 

https://soundcloud.com/cosmicdolphin/mad-world-cover-10-3-16/s-OwQ5r

 

[uSER=718131]kickingtone[/uSER] , [uSER=756134]New2[/uSER] ...come on guys ...let's hear you both do a version

[kickingtone]

The two LEAST SUBJECTIVE things in singing are pitch accuracy and projection. Even they are both quite subjective. Everything else is basically style and is very SUBJECTIVE.

 

[uSER=758061]CosmicDolphin[/uSER] consistent pitch accuracy was not evident in your cover. You were scooping and sliding on several notes, and giving the impression that you are barely reaching the higher notes, and your voice was cracking at the top of the slide.

 

btw, I am not hearing anything "airy" in Jay1020's cover. I think that you are mischaracterizing depth/richness of tone as airiness. It is very difficult to appreciate what is going on if you go airy when trying to "beef up" your own tone because your voice type is very different.

 

Stylistically...

 

I don't know if you were covering this release..

 

[video=youtube;SFsHSHE-iJQ]

 

..but notice the tempo, and how it is punchier. No scooping of notes. (Note how the vibe is PETULANT.)

 

Even Gary Jules, laying it on thick with the PATHOS in his cover, doesn't scoop. The inflections are subtle and nuanced (but, imo, the whole vibe is pathetically weak).

 

[video=youtube;4N3N1MlvVc4]

 

I don't like the vibe of either. But they do each have a DISTINCT VIBE, imo. If you need convincing about how subjective it all is, just read the comments after the videos. You may think that you have improved something, but others may think that you have wrecked it. There are no absolutes. Nobody is "right".

 

You sung in a higher key than Jay1020 (but he was more accurate in terms of pitch control). However, in doing so, you didn't introduce any distinct vibe, imo.

 

For some people, higher (and/or louder) means better, regardless. For me, a heap of other things are way more important. You have to think very hard about what vibe you are communication in a song. That is where the real artistry comes in. But first, you really have to hit those notes a lot better.

 

I think that singers who can stay on scale, even if they change the odd note, are more focused on the vibe and artistry of the song, than the song as a technical exercise. As long as those few changes are not introduced just to avoid technical challenges, I'd say it's a good sign.

 

Well, I am extremely reluctant to learn and sing an entire song that I don't particularly like, in terms of vibe. I don't like petulant vibe, I don't like pathetic vibe and pathos, and I have no idea how to render that song otherwise. It's not me. Could I pick a random phrase from the song and sing it? Yeah. But it would just be a pitch exercise, and I have plenty of those that I prefer and that target specific techniques. I am not planning to get kitted up and doing covers until next year.

 

 

Hey good start...things I noticed...( not saying I could do it much better ...had a go at it myself if you want to compare notes:) )

 

Pitching is very good... I would say although it sounds like the key is lower than the original ? Have you tried it at the original key, I think it makes for a more compelling place in the typical male voice.

 

At first I thought It sounds a bit too breathy to me or like you sang it a bit quietly....but actually when I tried it myself it seems to suit the style of the music so I think you made the right choice stylistically.

 

There are spots where you sing the melody different..is this on purpose for style or not?, They are...

 

22s ..missed the last note of the run on faces

 

33s ..left out one of the notes in nowhere..same on expression at 44s

 

49s..the 2nd note of sorrow is different ( I think by changing it , it loses some of starkness / simplicity of the original melody )

 

1.02 "Dreams" is the wrong note and " best I've ever had " are all quite different..in fact the chorus is all over the place compared to the original melody. You're singing notes in the right scale but weakening the melody IMHO by doing so.

 

1.27 " Mad World" bit highlights that it should be in a higher key as it sounds like you are dipping real low for it.

 

Hope that helps, I think potentially you have a good voice there...if this is your " Super Learner " place then you are already starting some way ahead of many folks who would like to sing.

 

I like this song..I don't think I quite know it well enough but I was a big fan of the original Tears For Fears song back in the day.

 

Here is my attempt..I must stress it was all one take ( although not my first take..I had to figure a few things out ) and I haven't added any FX it's just the raw vocal , but there is a compressor built into my mic preamp so that may have kicked in at times.

 

https://soundcloud.com/cosmicdolphin/mad-world-cover-10-3-16/s-OwQ5r

 

[uSER=718131]kickingtone[/uSER] , [uSER=756134]New2[/uSER] ...come on guys ...let's hear you both do a version

 

[CosmicDolphin]

Hi Kickingtone

 

Thanks for the feedback. Yes I agree pitch is non-negotiable and Jay1020 pitched his vocal pretty accurately compared to mine. Even more so listening back to it the "morning after "

 

Cracking / Scooping / Sliding weren't on purpose....it's just what my voice does naturally when trying to sing it gently / quietly....or pathetically weak as you called it. I have noticed a lot of modern songs are sung this way, it seems to be a " thing "....maybe it's not for me. Faster & louder songs feel easier to me than softer & slower ones.

 

I know the Tears for Fears version much better than the Gary Jules one, obviously the backing track is for the latter....the tempo is pretty slow compared to the version I remember best and I only just noticed some of the lyrics are different in his version.

 

Putting any emotion into a song is the hardest thing of all ...I find things like this quite mawkish. My singing teacher says most students are over the top in that sense and she has to reign them in but I am the opposite...I'm more of a Jack Dee type persona. I have to dial it up to eleventystupid to even register at the lower end of the end of the scale.

 

I'd never sang this song before last night, , I would argue with New2 it's not an easy song to sing...not to me anyway.With more practice I think I could improve it.

[Jay1020]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the feedback, I really do appreciate it! I've been practising this song for a while, I'm not quite ready to throw up an update. Granted, that was my first sing through for that one, so I hope this one sounds a lot better. [uSER=718131]kickingtone[/uSER] I'ma take your advice on the a capella, but I'm going to do it for another song. When I get it up, I'll let ya know

[Jay1020]

[uSER=758061]CosmicDolphin[/uSER] [uSER=718131]kickingtone[/uSER] Ideally, when we do a cover, you know after practicing up, getting the lyrics down and good voice control, ultimately you would want a cover to sound different than the actual original song yes?

 

[uSER=758061]CosmicDolphin[/uSER] Yeah, it was the same for me, I heard it that night, and proceeded to sing it the same night lol. I can see New2's point...to match the notes, the pitch, it's relatively easy. However, like you said, putting emotion into the song for the appropriate alterations as well as making this cover match your own voice takes a whole lot of effort. I had to go deeper and slightly darker to be able to sing the notes I wanted to that night. A lot of the notes I hit, I did change on purpose, and I'm still tweaking things here, and switching things there. I plan to upload a retake on this cover, but I want to work through it and get it down better first

 

[uSER=718131]kickingtone[/uSER] I can understand your reasons for not wanting to cover this song...at least not for now. But I second Cosmic. I think it would be fun if we just threw up some covers, I'd like to hear this one from you and New2 as well hehe. I think the forum can be a little dry sometimes, but seeing this freedom from you veterans will perhaps inspire us less-experienced ones to want to open up our voices more, make improvements faster, and have fun doing it

[FelipeCarvalho]

Hi Jay!

 

I took a listen, first thing I´ve noticed is that you could really put more energy into it, try moving into a shout voice instead of singing, just to see how things move for you. Right now its very, very held back,even a bit nasal, probably due not opening the mouth enough.

 

Also, about the whole pitchy/not pitchy thing, I believe the main issue here is that the melody is a bit weird by the standards we are used to, and, it seems you end up wavering around the notes instead of defining them, I sugest working like this:

 

https://app.box.com/s/odw668xpzejbr42axk3x3pp9lmf0don0

 

Practice first with an open AH on the scale, try to get some energy on it, open well, let your voice get heavy if necessary. Then sing the melody line after practicing that scale a bit. You will see your brain will start to register it better.

 

From what I´ve heard, it probably would be a very good idea to move up a semitone or two, Bb2 is quite low already and on the lower ends its starting to falter a bit. It can be used for an effect if that´s what you want, but, thinking also of bringing more energy, it would be a good idea to center it around C, for example.

[Jay1020]

[uSER=717201]FelipeCarvalho[/uSER] Thanks for the feedback! Admittedly, when I first attempted the song, I was kind of weary of anything higher, but now that I have more familiarity with the lyrics and the transition of the song, I think I may be able to pull going a semitone or two off. I like the shout voice idea as well, I've been experimenting with that too Thanks I'ma continue working on this some more. Great idea from the app box, I'll try that practice too!

[kickingtone]

Cracking / Scooping / Sliding weren't on purpose....it's just what my voice does naturally when trying to sing it gently / quietly....or pathetically weak as you called it. I have noticed a lot of modern songs are sung this way' date=' it seems to be a " thing "....maybe it's not for me. Faster & louder songs feel easier to me than softer & slower ones.[/quote']

 

By, "pathetically weak", I was actually referring to the EMOTIONAL energy of the Gary Jules cover. The physical delivery is not weak, at all. It is possible to sing soft or loud with a "pathetically weak" emotional energy.

[kickingtone]

[uSER=718131]kickingtone[/uSER] I can understand your reasons for not wanting to cover this song...at least not for now. But I second Cosmic. I think it would be fun if we just threw up some covers' date=' I'd like to hear this one from you and New2 as well hehe. I think the forum can be a little dry sometimes, but seeing this freedom from you veterans will perhaps inspire us less-experienced ones to want to open up our voices more, make improvements faster, and have fun doing it [/quote']

 

I think it is a great idea: practical participation, comparing notes, parallel improvement and stuff.

 

I've seen folks start similar things on other websites, but it has not been long before self-styled "experts" have moved in and tried to impose their "absolute" opinions on everyone. So, you can't actually discuss anything. The mods, "experts" and a few or their sycophants have got the thing shut down, because folk are learning on their own. If you don't do it their way or like what they like, they get upset.

 

I think the idea could work on this forum, though, because so far there are no cliques. But it would take quite a combination of honesty, open-mindedness and positivity to get it to work.

 

I hope somebody takes it up. I would have a year or two ago, but I've already developed my own methods and set my own long term goals. Once I've got my next year of targets out of the way, I may have the luxury of being able to join in something like you suggest.

 

(I'm also very touchy about what I sing. So, I can't see myself sing that manic song in a month of leap years. )

[Jay1020]

[uSER=718131]kickingtone[/uSER] haha fair enough! I would also like to see the idea come to fruition. I think it'll be very fun. I'ma make another thread in a few minutes asking about favorite songs, and I hope it goes from there

[CosmicDolphin]

 

By, "pathetically weak", I was actually referring to the EMOTIONAL energy of the Gary Jules cover. The physical delivery is not weak, at all. It is possible to sing soft or loud with a "pathetically weak" emotional energy.

 

Well I think they kinda go hand in hand..the emotional and the physical delivery......you can't belt out a song like this out loudly and deliver it have that fragility.

 

There's a lot more of that in music these days, I think it stems from recording technology. We can record really quiet sources, ( voice or instrument ) these days because the noise floor of digital recording is almost non existent. Back in the days of a bands recording around a few mics direct onto analogue tape you had to belt it out to get above hiss..and your backing band.

 

 

 

[CosmicDolphin]

Yeah, it was the same for me, I heard it that night, and proceeded to sing it the same night lol. I can see New2's point...to match the notes, the pitch, it's relatively easy. However, like you said, putting emotion into the song for the appropriate alterations as well as making this cover match your own voice takes a whole lot of effort. I had to go deeper and slightly darker to be able to sing the notes I wanted to that night. A lot of the notes I hit, I did change on purpose, and I'm still tweaking things here, and switching things there. I plan to upload a retake on this cover, but I want to work through it and get it down better first

 

I took it to my singing lesson last week to get some pointers so I will practice it for a while and have another go at it. If I think it's and improvement I will post it up.

 

Let me know if you want the backing track in the original key.

[kickingtone]

 

Well I think they kinda go hand in hand..the emotional and the physical delivery......you can't belt out a song like this out loudly and deliver it have that fragility.

 

The ability to do that is what makes the artist.

 

Listen here to Kate Bush conveying "HAUNTING, PATHETIC AND FRAGILE", all at once, delivered with POWER and VERVE.

 

[video=youtube;h2mVjN0QQTg]

 

There's a lot more of that in music these days' date=' I think it stems from recording technology. We can record really quiet sources, ( voice or instrument ) these days because the noise floor of digital recording is almost non existent. Back in the days of a bands recording around a few mics direct onto analogue tape you had to belt it out to get above hiss..and your backing band.[/quote']

 

Agghhhh...

 

..I think it is commercialization. It has simplified the musical taste.

[CosmicDolphin]

 

Listen here to Kate Bush conveying "HAUNTING, PATHETIC AND FRAGILE", all at once, delivered with POWER and VERVE.

 

 

Well it's interesting....just listen to the hiss at the start for one thing we don't have to deal with nowadays.

 

I don't think it has that same Haunting quality as the Gary Jules cover though.....to me it's has am almost cackly / witchy sound and comes across more like musical theatre performance ..sort of dramatic. I think she's actually singing quite strongly and not in that whispery voice like in Mad World. I don't find it fragile in any way. Another interesting fact, she re-recorded her vocals for it again 6yrs later, it does sound different, it's certainly a cleaner mix from a technical standpoint but I think it loses some of the charm of the original.

 

Actually going by old songs, I've heard you do a little of Sound of Silence which to me is much closer I feel to the vocal style of Mad World ( if you were to remove the harmony )...oh and just listen to the hiss on that on the intro's acoustic guitar !

[kickingtone]

 

Well it's interesting....just listen to the hiss at the start for one thing we don't have to deal with nowadays.

 

I am not hearing much hiss from the recording. I mean, if I start and stop the video, the amount of hiss hardly changes. Could be down to my crap sound card and headphones. But I then tried listening to an Ed Sheeran song, and the amount of hiss seemed to be more!

 

I don't think it has that same Haunting quality as the Gary Jules cover though...

 

I'm not getting "haunting" at all from Gary Jules (thankfully -- I wouldn't want to be haunted by that), even in the sense in which I think you are using the word. All he makes me want to do is shout, "pull yourself together, man!" In that sense, he has succeeded in getting an emotional response.

 

..to me it's has am almost cackly / witchy sound and comes across more like musical theatre performance ..sort of dramatic.

 

Yes. What I meant by "haunting", in this case, is "spooky!" Cathy is a ghost after all, and I think that Kate Bush nails it.

 

I think she's actually singing quite strongly and not in that whispery voice like in Mad World. I don't find it fragile in any way.

 

For me, even a powerful, theatrical, voice can convey "fragile". The sound doesn't have to be physically fragile.

 

I think that Kate Bush captures the feeling of a lost soul wondering the dark, loneliness of "the other side", imploring "HeathCliff" to let her come home, albeit to haunt him because of her unresolved love/hate. Their actual story is quite pathetic, and I think that Kate Bush manages to convey pathetic pleading and fragility, even as she gives the whole thing that spooky ambiance.

 

Seriously creepy, man. Seriously creepy!

 

I don't know how theatre would work if theatrical singing couldn't convey all the emotions. I guess we all tune into different things.

 

There was a video posted some time ago about singing classical vs pop, in which the tutor said that singing pop is "more about the conversation". I totally disagreed with that. I think that he just understands pop better.

 

Another interesting fact' date=' she re-recorded her vocals for it again 6yrs later, it does sound different, it's certainly a cleaner mix from a technical standpoint but I think it loses some of the charm of the original.[/quote']

 

For me, "charm" is not a word that sprung to mind, re the spooky original!

 

But I'd like to hear the update, if you have a link.

 

Actually going by old songs' date=' I've heard you do a little of Sound of Silence which to me is much closer I feel to the vocal style of Mad World ( if you were to remove the harmony )...oh and just listen to the hiss on that on the intro's acoustic guitar ! [/quote']

 

Now, I do like Sound of Silence, and that I do think has a haunting,"reminiscing" quality to it. The dream, though ("the vision that was planted in my brain"), is not a spooky one, but a more positive one of revelation. The "bad dreams in the night" in Wuthering Heights is clearly the spook, Cathy. Very different intentions, imo.

 

But, I find the energy of Sound of Silence quite the opposite to that of Jules' Mad World cover.

 

So, I guess that we are looking in different places for what constitutes energy.

 

Yeah, I've never been impressed just by direct physical energy of a song, which is why I am rarely into any kind of hard (or even medium) rock or metal. To my ears, they only seem to sound frustrated, tortured and weak, which is the opposite of what is intended! Strange as it may be, if find Sound of Silence has more power than any kind of heavy rock.

[CosmicDolphin]

I am not hearing much hiss from the recording. I mean, if I start and stop the video, the amount of hiss hardly changes.

 

It's clearly audible on the intro's of both ..it will be the tape hiss from the analogue recording gear of the day. Once the singing starts it tends to mask the hiss . People just got used to it back then, same with crackly vinyl etc..your brain tunes it out.

 

But I'd like to hear the update, if you have a link.

 

I don't but you should find it if you use Spotify or similar ..from Wikipedia..

 

"The song was significantly re-mixed and given a new lead vocal in 1986 for Bush's greatest-hits album The Whole Story."

 

I've never actually read Wuthering Heights or seen any sort of adaptation so I don't know what it's about. I don't think I even realised the song was anything more than a standalone song for many years. I guess I'm not target audience for that type of stuff. I don't like the song either. Not saying I don't appreciate that it's a unique piece of music but if it came on the radio I'd probably switch channel as it annoys me.

 

I'm more into Electronic music and Sci-Fi novels

 

 

[kickingtone]

 

It's clearly audible on the intro's of both ..it will be the tape hiss from the analogue recording gear of the day. Once the singing starts it tends to mask the hiss . People just got used to it back then, same with crackly vinyl etc..your brain tunes it out.

 

Well, I don't block stuff out that I am actually listening out for!

 

I can hear a small amount of hiss, but it is the same for any video. To be honest, it is dwarfedt by the noise, of my PC, mainly interference between sound and graphics card.

 

I've never actually read Wuthering Heights or seen any sort of adaptation so I don't know what it's about. I don't think I even realised the song was anything more than a standalone song for many years.

 

I knew about the book, although I've never actually read it. I didn't know the name of the song, either, so I made no connection for a long while.

 

But I do recall these guys having to sing it for one round in the Naked Choir competition (which they ultimately won).

 

[video=youtube;nBVq8FtsYyI]

 

That was a bit of a laugh, a male a cappella choir having to sing that. It was the part of the competition where the opponent chose the song for you! I think that was where I thought, "Hey! I've heard that song!" and I saw the title and made the connection with the book. And, like you, the song always had me reaching for the OFF button. I know exactly what you mean by "irritating".

 

(BTW I think the dudes overcooked it with the dramatization.)

 

But then I looked the song up on Wikipedia, and found out a bit about the book. (Some rambling byzantine plot that is so macabre, one critic said that the book was set in Hell.) Anyway, funny enough, once I got the gist of the context, and what the song was about, I started to appreciate it. That has happened with a lot of songs.

 

I guess I'm not target audience for that type of stuff. I don't like the song either. Not saying I don't appreciate that it's a unique piece of music but if it came on the radio I'd probably switch channel as it annoys me.

 

I'm more into Electronic music and Sci-Fi novels

 

 

LOL! Electronic music seriously has me reaching for the OFF button! Most music I don't like I can tune out while it is playing in the background, but not that stuff. Damn! If I want to hear fruit machine music, I can go to a casino!

 

As for novels, I don't read fiction. I'm a philistine, ha, ha!