Members kickingtone Posted January 2, 2017 Members Share Posted January 2, 2017 I got the practising bug, and now it's late...so, how not to disturb the neighbours??? I had to get inventive and impromptu with a lil falsetto and stuff.. https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/ylmu037lv I wonder what it will sound like tomorrow. Flat maybe I find that falsetto has a habit of sounding ok one day and then flat the next, because it is a little harder to track. Once I'm tuned in, I can't tell how well it will track from cold. Anyway, it's a good exercise when it is late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kickingtone Posted January 3, 2017 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2017 Tomorrow has come! It doesn't sound all that bad to my ears. Any comments, please? I think I've definitely improved the tracking on my falsetto etc. I don't think it is bad for a start at exploring dynamics, and it has helped me notice something that improves tracking. Ho hum, such fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CosmicDolphin Posted January 3, 2017 Members Share Posted January 3, 2017 There are much more knowledgable folks on these boards than me that may be able to chime in but I thought it sounded way too light. Maybe it's because you were trying not to wake the neighbours? I'm not familiar with the song but it sounded on pitch for the most part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Janice Yap Posted January 3, 2017 Members Share Posted January 3, 2017 I got the practising bug, and now it's late...so, how not to disturb the neighbours??? I had to get inventive and impromptu with a lil falsetto and stuff.. https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/ylmu037lv I wonder what it will sound like tomorrow. Flat maybe I find that falsetto has a habit of sounding ok one day and then flat the next, because it is a little harder to track. Once I'm tuned in, I can't tell how well it will track from cold. Anyway, it's a good exercise when it is late. Hi Kickingtone! I love your spirit! I used to practice late into the nights as well That said, unless we’re practising softer singing, it’s best to do all the practising when and where we don’t have to hold back our voices - very often, vocal restrictions can be caused simply by holding back the voice. I’ve listened to your track - it sounds like you’re already using both your registers (the chest and head), but not quite using your mix (middle voice) just yet. This often results in the voice feeling a significant change of weight when shifting from the chest to the head (or falsetto) - it can also feel like your voice is at the edge of flipping (or cracking) at any time. Instead of shifting straight to head voice when you feel like your chest voice cannot take you further, try to place those notes in the middle register instead. For example: “When I am down...” Currently: The “am” was sung in head voice, which feels and sounds much lighter in it’s resonance than it needs to be, which can cause unsteadiness. Try: Singing “am” in the middle voice, placing it a the resonance area where your lips are instead of up to where your nose/cheeks are. If you have trouble placing it there, you can try singing and pronouncing the “am” as “yam” for now - you’d find that it’ll sit at a a slightly more comfortable place where your voice doesn’t feel like it’s flipping straight into falsetto but making a transition into your mix instead. If you wanna find out more on how to improve your vocal connection, you can check this out: You can also add a little sob as you are going for that note, to make it sound a little more solid. If dynamics is what you’re after, learning how to sing heavier and lighter in various vocal registers and being able to use all vocal gears are important. It’s a little hard to explain everything through text alone, so here’s something else you can check out to get a better idea: Happy practising and keep it going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kickingtone Posted January 3, 2017 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2017 Thanks for the feedback, folks. :-) I would just like to clarify something before getting to the individual posts. Here is a clip from 4 months ago. (It was for an unrelated specific question and I've improved a lot since then, so it doesn't need review, now). https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/ylmu020lv I sing the song from memory, but, if I remember correctly, it starts quietly. And even though I am holding back because of this, it is STILL too loud to sing at night. So, I would like you to consider the softness and various registrations (whisper/falsetto..) in my latest clip as a deliberate choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kickingtone Posted January 3, 2017 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2017 There are much more knowledgable folks on these boards than me that may be able to chime in but I thought it sounded way too light. Maybe it's because you were trying not to wake the neighbours? I'm not familiar with the song but it sounded on pitch for the most part Thanks for the feedback CosmicDolphin. My main concern was indeed the pitch. "Light" runs the risk of going "vague" pitchwise. Is there really anything like "too light" in terms of mixing it with instrumentals. Are you saying that it would be too light no matter the weight of the background instrumentals? (I won't be doing any covers until at least a year, so I've very limited experience in what works, although I have checked that my full voice is fine in a mix.) "Too light" could also mean, "too light to carry any emotional content". i.e a full-on, airy whisper! That WOULD be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kickingtone Posted January 3, 2017 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2017 Hi Janice, Thanks for the feedback, and the clear breakdown of your points! Interesting videos, too. :-) As I mentioned above, the flip (to in this case chest falsetto) was deliberate, because the night time situation limited the dynamics I could play with. I was basically left with soft chest, whisper and falsetto. So, it was just a bit of a game, trying to do something with them. I definitely wouldn't sing a whole song like that for real! I have to admit, though, that I would have found it difficult to do a mixed voice that was as quiet as the whispered chest. Maybe learning to do a super soft mix is something I should try. I can go up to A4 in mix, so it was actually well within my range. Here is a clip I have posted, before, quite a while ago. Not something my neighbours want to hear at midnight. About that flip to falsetto...not everybody's cup of tea, but I like it stylistically. Here is Art Garfunkel (a bit before your time!) flipping directly to falsetto, just for style.. Sound of Silence (Written by Paul Simon, sung by Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel) At 0:15 onward - Art Garfunkel deliberately flips from chest to falsetto. Ha! ha! I like it. There is no accounting for taste, which is why emotional content can be so individual. Chest: Left its seeds while I wa-as sleeping, and the.. Falsetto: vision that was planted in my brain... [video=youtube;4zLfCnGVeL4] Beauuuurriful! Yeah... and, as you point out in your video, definitely start in a comfortable register for what you want to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CosmicDolphin Posted January 4, 2017 Members Share Posted January 4, 2017 Is there really anything like "too light" in terms of mixing it with instrumentals. Are you saying that it would be too light no matter the weight of the background instrumentals? Not really , I just thought it was too whispery for a lead vocal but if you have to keep quiet at night it's understandable. You can learn to sing quietly without going really light and whispery too though it can be a type of sound to dry your throat after a while as a lot of air passes over your vocal folds. Mixing - You could mix this (or any other style of voice) into a track but the arrangement has to be right or it could potentially be masked by the other instruments. Usually something as light sounding as your first clip would be more of a sound used for some backing vocals so they could be layered without taking over the track. As a lead vocal on something fairly sparse with just one or two instruments I guess it may work. If it's a pre-recorded backing track of a cover song then be guided by the original vocal ( if you are using a backing track that is a close facsimile) as they will have worked all that stuff out when they made the record. Careless Whisper came to mind when I was trying to think of a popular song with light airy vocals.. guessing that's because of George's passing as well but if you listen to it there's nothing competing with his voice in the instruments ( guessing 3k - 5k ) it's all "underneath" him frequency wise. Had they added a strummed acoustic guitar like many ballads it probably would have been detrimental to the vocal track. Notice that in the later chorus section around 3.10 they bring in some fake keyboard strings that do sit in that range but by then George has moved gears out of the light floaty sound and into a stronger more resonant voice. It's all clever stuff when you break it down...the song title isn't even mentioned in the chorus but they used a whispery vocal to tie in with the name ! "Too light" could also mean, "too light to carry any emotional content". i.e a full-on, airy whisper! That WOULD be a problem. No, see example above but it would probably get a bit much for a whole 3 or 4 minutes. Better to sprinkle it into a song and take the listeners on a journey. FWIW I actually think I preferred the 4 months ago version, but I can't access the first one now to compare. How long have you been at this for ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Janice Yap Posted January 4, 2017 Members Share Posted January 4, 2017 Hi Janice, Thanks for the feedback, and the clear breakdown of your points! Interesting videos, too. :-) As I mentioned above, the flip (to in this case chest falsetto) was deliberate, because the night time situation limited the dynamics I could play with. I was basically left with soft chest, whisper and falsetto. So, it was just a bit of a game, trying to do something with them. I definitely wouldn't sing a whole song like that for real! I have to admit, though, that I would have found it difficult to do a mixed voice that was as quiet as the whispered chest. Maybe learning to do a super soft mix is something I should try. I can go up to A4 in mix, so it was actually well within my range. Here is a clip I have posted, before, quite a while ago. Not something my neighbours want to hear at midnight. About that flip to falsetto...not everybody's cup of tea, but I like it stylistically. Here is Art Garfunkel (a bit before your time!) flipping directly to falsetto, just for style.. Sound of Silence (Written by Paul Simon, sung by Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel) At 0:15 onward - Art Garfunkel deliberately flips from chest to falsetto. Ha! ha! I like it. There is no accounting for taste, which is why emotional content can be so individual. Chest: Left its seeds while I wa-as sleeping, and the.. Falsetto: vision that was planted in my brain... [video=youtube;4zLfCnGVeL4] Beauuuurriful! Yeah... and, as you point out in your video, definitely start in a comfortable register for what you want to do! Hi Kickingtone, Ah, I see now what you’re aiming for. I am one for deliberate flips (or intentional vocal breaks too)...I’ve always liked how Dolores O’Riordan, Steven Tyler, Mariah Carey do theirs and work their magic into their songs - I guess as long as the intentional vocal break sounds intentional, it sounds great! Love that song you shared. Love that part too! It sounds more like a light mix he’s using in the part you’ve mentioned, rather than a deliberate flip. Nevertheless, as you’ve said, it’s beautiful, and it is it definitely sounds like he made a deliberate vocal decision to render it that way. Keep singing & drive your neighbours mad til they're madly in love with you! Haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kickingtone Posted January 4, 2017 Author Members Share Posted January 4, 2017 You can learn to sing quietly without going really light and whispery too though it can be a type of sound to dry your throat after a while as a lot of air passes over your vocal folds. It is actually a relatively small increase in air. I think it depends on your type of vocal folds. I can sing like that for a long time with no ill effects. (I know, because, if I get the singing bug in the wrong place at the wrong time, I will whisper sing all day! Worst scenario is getting the singing bug in the street, I would try to sing without anybody else hearing and without moving my mouth. And I have discovered that the softest sounds can carry quite a distance. People apparently way out of range would sometimes turn round in confusion, like something subliminal is stalking them. Fortunately, I am alert and stop immediately! So I haven't been arrested for unstable behaviour, so far. (btw, I don't allow singing like that to introduce "habit") Mixing - You could mix this (or any other style of voice) into a track but the arrangement has to be right or it could potentially be masked by the other instruments. Usually something as light sounding as your first clip would be more of a sound used for some backing vocals so they could be layered without taking over the track. As a lead vocal on something fairly sparse with just one or two instruments I guess it may work. If it's a pre-recorded backing track of a cover song then be guided by the original vocal ( if you are using a backing track that is a close facsimile) as they will have worked all that stuff out when they made the record. Careless Whisper came to mind when I was trying to think of a popular song with light airy vocals.. guessing that's because of George's passing as well but if you listen to it there's nothing competing with his voice in the instruments ( guessing 3k - 5k ) it's all "underneath" him frequency wise. Had they added a strummed acoustic guitar like many ballads it probably would have been detrimental to the vocal track. Notice that in the later chorus section around 3.10 they bring in some fake keyboard strings that do sit in that range but by then George has moved gears out of the light floaty sound and into a stronger more resonant voice. It's all clever stuff when you break it down...the song title isn't even mentioned in the chorus but they used a whispery vocal to tie in with the name ! Thanks Advice fully on-board. But, you know me. After hearing your advice, my instinct is to mix the airy vocals with a guitar and listen very carefully to how the vocals get overpowered, so that it creates an actual "auditory memo", and I truly understand from a practical perspective. And I guess you give your advice from your actual experience of mixing and hearing the effect, not from............. a book on how to mix.... of course. The speed advantage I gain is you telling me what to look out for in order to learn, rather than telling me not to bother to look because somebody else has. And thanks for the example you posted. Had a good listen. Very informative. No, see example above but it would probably get a bit much for a whole 3 or 4 minutes. Better to sprinkle it into a song and take the listeners on a journey. FWIW I actually think I preferred the 4 months ago version, but I can't access the first one now to compare. How long have you been at this for ? I agree. If I were doing a cover, rather than just practising specific registrations, my choice would be much closer to the earlier version, but, by now, delivered with more aplomb, hopefully. It's been four years since I started and I have clips going back all the way. One thing I do is to pick a phrase in a song which exemplifies something I want to work on, and I will work on several clips in parallel over the years. It is quite organic and laid back, and I add to the pool as I go. If you mean how long I've been looking at dynamics, earliest clip is last June, then I put it on the back burner because I felt it was too early. Other basic things were on my to-do list. It is great to be able to look back now and know, "hey, I can do better than that in a single take". First play with dynamics (June). I'm not embarrassed. Learning and improving is a fact of human existence. At some point, I told myself, you have to stop always "singing from memory" and actually hew to the original. Then I realized, omg, I don't have the dynamics! But I had to put that on the back burner at the time, as I said. http://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/ichfilwy002lv Since then, I think I am ready to start tackling dynamics. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kickingtone Posted January 4, 2017 Author Members Share Posted January 4, 2017 Hi Janice, I quoted your post and my computer went berserk and scrambled it. Often can happen if your keyboard sends special characters. Yes, I had another listen and saw that you are correct. Garfunkel uses a light mix. He doesn't flip register. But I do hear a falsetto sound kick into that mix. Nicely accomplished! Not that Paul Simon was attempting to do the same, but I think his voice is too "grainy" or "buzzy" to achieve that particular kind of smooth falsetto sound. That is a tremendous help. Thank you. As you said on your video, if you wish to be able to sing something, start in the correct register. So I have to pay careful attention to which register a singer is using in order to understand what he is doing or try to reproduce it. What I did, was flip register, as you said, which is different, albeit a kind of dynamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CosmicDolphin Posted January 4, 2017 Members Share Posted January 4, 2017 After hearing your advice, my instinct is to mix the airy vocals with a guitar and listen very carefully to how the vocals get overpowered, so that it creates an actual "auditory memo", and I truly understand from a practical perspective. And I guess you give your advice from your actual experience of mixing and hearing the effect, not from............. a book on how to mix.... of course. Well it depends..you could play the guitar so they don't walk over each other which is what happens in Sound Of Silence, you'll notice the vocals are lightest when the guitar is only picking and it's rather far back in the mix, and there are actually two vocals singing in harmony - one panned left the other right but the strummed guitar is quite dark sounding and when it does arrive the vocals are less whispery so they can compete. And I give my advice from having mixed tons of songs, demos , live recordings over 25 years...but...yes also a book..or several books. Zen & The Art of Mixing is a great book, as is Mixing Studios For The Small Studio by Mike Senior who has actually helped me out with some mentoring over the past few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CosmicDolphin Posted January 4, 2017 Members Share Posted January 4, 2017 http://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/ichfilwy002lv Since then, I think I am ready to start tackling dynamics. :-) OK, this sounds out of balance to me...you can almost guess that it would be by looking at the waveform..after years of looking at them from great singers, average ones and awful ones you notice the best ones even "look" smooth just by eyeballing it. So your consonants are jumping out, like " W ise...Men Say ( you start off pitch on the "s" and slide down to it on the "ay") My 2c ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kickingtone Posted January 4, 2017 Author Members Share Posted January 4, 2017 OK, this sounds out of balance to me...you can almost guess that it would be by looking at the waveform..after years of looking at them from great singers, average ones and awful ones you notice the best ones even "look" smooth just by eyeballing it. So your consonants are jumping out, like " W ise...Men Say ( you start off pitch on the "s" and slide down to it on the "ay") My 2c ! Yes, it is the worst bit. The "slide" is deliberate but is meant to be a LOT more subtle (much less of a drop). I am sure there is a technical term for the technique, but I don't know what it is. That is why I put things on the back burner and come back to them at my leisure over the next year... two years... five years! Until they are refined! Thanks, that is very useful feedback. I didn't realize it sounded so exaggerated, but now that you point it out, it is obvious! There is a bit of an irony here. I ALWAYS look at the wave form. I have posted threads on here asking about the waveform of some clips. This was questioned by some very experienced folks (some with twice your experience!), who basically told me that I was wasting my time, and the waveform won't help me. Of course, being my maverick self I chose not to agree with that part (tell me what I can do, not what I can't ). I can sometimes see things like bad onsets to notes and flips or wobbles on a note. Although I know what you mean about the smoothness of the waveform, I haven't found this reliable, because my equipment is so electronically noisy. But even I have seen a trend of my vocals smoothing out over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators davie Posted January 4, 2017 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2017 I think it's good that you're working on singing with dynamics. Nowadays everyone puts too much emphasis on singing loud and singing loud all the time. I find it more interesting to listen to singers who make use of various dynamics and colours of the voice. Judging from your clip, you sound like you're on the right track. One feedback for you, try to lessen the attack on consonants that start the soft phrases for a more smooth delivery. I know you like experimenting with the voice a lot too, have you ever tried working on the 'messa di voce' technique? It really stretches the voice in terms of dynamics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kickingtone Posted January 5, 2017 Author Members Share Posted January 5, 2017 I think it's good that you're working on singing with dynamics. Nowadays everyone puts too much emphasis on singing loud and singing loud all the time. I find it more interesting to listen to singers who make use of various dynamics and colours of the voice. Judging from your clip' date=' you sound like you're on the right track. One feedback for you, try to lessen the attack on consonants that start the soft phrases for a more smooth delivery. I know you like experimenting with the voice a lot too, have you ever tried working on the 'messa di voce' technique? It really stretches the voice in terms of dynamics.[/quote'] Heard of messa di voce. Don't know why I have never checked out what it is before. Sounds interesting. hmmmm.. I can see the potential. Thanks. Funny, but it was onsets and attacks that I was doing, when nightfall interrupted me, and I changed to practising quiet dynamics! I'll definitely tie it in. Yeah, I really like the subtler dynamics, too. As you may have observed from the feedback, I am going to have to listen a lot closer to originals to really understand the subtler requirements, and to listen to myself, so I don't end up exaggerating what I am trying to do, or mix up the various coordinations. That is going to take quite some time. A lot of listening to music, not for pleasure, but for analysis.... hmmmm... Dunno if you remember that you were the one who told me to look at dynamics, and I put it on my to-do list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CosmicDolphin Posted January 5, 2017 Members Share Posted January 5, 2017 Yes, it is the worst bit. The "slide" is deliberate but is meant to be a LOT more subtle (much less of a drop). I am sure there is a technical term for the technique, but I don't know what it is. That is why I put things on the back burner and come back to them at my leisure over the next year... two years... five years! Until they are refined! Thanks, that is very useful feedback. I didn't realize it sounded so exaggerated, but now that you point it out, it is obvious! There is a bit of an irony here. I ALWAYS look at the wave form. I have posted threads on here asking about the waveform of some clips. This was questioned by some very experienced folks (some with twice your experience!), who basically told me that I was wasting my time, and the waveform won't help me. Of course, being my maverick self I chose not to agree with that part (tell me what I can do, not what I can't ). I can sometimes see things like bad onsets to notes and flips or wobbles on a note. Although I know what you mean about the smoothness of the waveform, I haven't found this reliable, because my equipment is so electronically noisy. But even I have seen a trend of my vocals smoothing out over the years. Glissando is the term you are looking for. From what I remember of the song there's no slide there though, if you could get the sheet music you could check. Each word is made up of syllables, and each syllable has a definite note pitch in the song....Wise Men Say...3 notes... you could play them on the piano and work them out. I don't believe there's a 4th note. Mariah Carey might add a 4th but until you've totally nailed it"straight" I'd avoid that stuff. The SoundCloud waveforms are not the most accurate but I used to do the same thing...My mate who is a full time musician ( but not a great singer ) does it too. I had. never heard it mentioned in any singing videos or courses I'd done...and yet..you know what I'm going to say...I got picked up on it almost right away during lessons...it was a lightbulb moment and it took me quite a few months to iron out but it sounds way better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kickingtone Posted January 5, 2017 Author Members Share Posted January 5, 2017 Glissando is the term you are looking for. From what I remember of the song there's no slide there though, if you could get the sheet music you could check. Each word is made up of syllables, and each syllable has a definite note pitch in the song....Wise Men Say...3 notes... you could play them on the piano and work them out. I don't believe there's a 4th note. Mariah Carey might add a 4th but until you've totally nailed it"straight" I'd avoid that stuff. The SoundCloud waveforms are not the most accurate but I used to do the same thing...My mate who is a full time musician ( but not a great singer ) does it too. I had. never heard it mentioned in any singing videos or courses I'd done...and yet..you know what I'm going to say...I got picked up on it almost right away during lessons...it was a lightbulb moment and it took me quite a few months to iron out but it sounds way better. Hang on...I think it is this cover that I am more familiar with...and, listening to it again, my drop was on "say" was actually correct. [video=youtube;vUdloUqZa7w] Listen to the word "say". It drops. Is that a glissando? Isn't it a bit too short? Is there a special term for the "throw" on the s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CosmicDolphin Posted January 5, 2017 Members Share Posted January 5, 2017 Hang on...I think it is this cover that I am more familiar with...and, listening to it again, my drop was on "say" was actually correct. [video=youtube;vUdloUqZa7w] Listen to the word "say". It drops. Is that a glissando? Isn't it a bit too short? Is there a special term for the "throw" on the s? Ah yes, hadn't remembered this version ...yes too short I think to use that term..there's four notes then, you just need to find them all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.