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  • A question regarding gun control..

    Everyone knows that as far as gun regulation is concerned, the sheer number of guns in the US has led to an arms race where a huge number of people have armed themselves to defend against the potential that someone who is most likely armed due to the lax gun laws and easy availability of firearms breaks in their house/attempts to rape them etc etc...



    When did this particular horse bolt and when was the time that the stable door could have been closed to good effect?
    Originally Posted by Tom Fucherheigen


    He is an adult now, but he is a child in the trousers.









    Originally Posted by clay sails


    This is essentially the same as married life, except that when you get married you share space with someone who washes your cum socks.

  • #2
    I thought the famous argument was that while it would be great if the laws prevented people from having guns, criminals don't buy guns legally. They buy them off the black market. So if everybody gave up their guns to be law abiding citizens, they would be perfect victims for criminals who don't buy guns legally.



    You can defend yourself, or wait for the police to fill out a report about it after the fact. "Better to be judged by 12 than be carried out by 6."
    Yer Blues wrote:I am from the Beavis and Butthead generation.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm under the impression that gun ownership in the US is a result of geographic location, combined with cultural heritage.



      If you're in an area that was settled later, the need for a hunting/defense weapon in the home is traditionally more prevalent. If your family was out in the sticks, hunting deer or small game is/was not unusual. My ex BIL was that kind of guy: not inclined to build rockets, but could feed his family year round by hunting and fishing. He preferred bow hunting over firearm as it made poaching easier.



      If there is a history of military service in your family, the idea of owning guns may not be looked upon as "omg what you need that gun for". That is my dad - Army Sgt. from `66-`70. He grew up shooting a .22 for fun, learned more in the Army, taught me how to shoot at age 10.



      US is the 3rd largest country in terms of population, 4th in terms of geographic size, and who knows in terms of cultural heritage. Very large land mass, with a very large number of people that do not share a single ideology. The idea of gun ownership is part of the basic set of laws declared by the founding fathers. Different parts of the country (in different times) have relied upon, and fought against, that basic law. How do we address the problem of crazies having easy access to guns at this point? Hell if I know.
      Originally Posted by mike moriarty


      Looks like an amp for old people.









      Originally Posted by syscrusher


      If the world didn't suck, we would fall off.









      Originally Posted by PerfectTommy


      kudos to Furtive for a clear and well-reasoned discussion. so rare to see something that has been thought through and presented rationally.

      Comment


      • #4






        Quote Originally Posted by Furtive
        View Post

        I'm under the impression that gun ownership in the US is a result of geographic location, combined with cultural heritage.



        If you're in an area that was settled later, the need for a hunting/defense weapon in the home is traditionally more prevalent. If your family was out in the sticks, hunting deer or small game is/was not unusual. My ex BIL was that kind of guy: not inclined to build rockets, but could feed his family year round by hunting and fishing. He preferred bow hunting over firearm as it made poaching easier.



        If there is a history of military service in your family, the idea of owning guns may not be looked upon as "omg what you need that gun for". That is my dad - Army Sgt. from `66-`70. He grew up shooting a .22 for fun, learned more in the Army, taught me how to shoot at age 10.



        US is the 3rd largest country in terms of population, 4th in terms of geographic size, and who knows in terms of cultural heritage. Very large land mass, with a very large number of people that do not share a single ideology. The idea of gun ownership is part of the basic set of laws declared by the founding fathers. Different parts of the country (in different times) have relied upon, and fought against, that basic law. How do we address the problem of crazies having easy access to guns at this point? Hell if I know.




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        • #5
          Was there a particular period time when guns became more readily available or affordable though? Eg mass production combined with an increase in the standard of living? Say, in the 40s or 50s? Or has it just happened gradually/sort of always been like that?
          "You ill mannered sack of ****************e."

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          • #6






            Quote Originally Posted by Calum
            View Post

            Was there a particular period time when guns became more readily available or affordable though? Eg mass production combined with an increase in the standard of living? Say, in the 40s or 50s? Or has it just happened gradually/sort of always been like that?




            I'm not 100% on this, but I'd hazard "always been like that".



            To understand America's fascination with guns, look at our timeline in comparison to number of wars fought by Americans. There has been a war for each generation, since the 1750s. That is the response I provided to a buddy in Mexico, when asked the same question.



            I've brought two foreigners (my wife - Mexican, and a friend - English) to the firing range for their first time. One enjoyed it, the other did not. One took pleasure in the simple act of sending a projectile at a target, the other experienced fear due to the perception of chaos due to noise.
            Originally Posted by mike moriarty


            Looks like an amp for old people.









            Originally Posted by syscrusher


            If the world didn't suck, we would fall off.









            Originally Posted by PerfectTommy


            kudos to Furtive for a clear and well-reasoned discussion. so rare to see something that has been thought through and presented rationally.

            Comment


            • #7
              First, the Bill of Rights, including the fabulously famous 2ed Amendment, was a initially a set of restrictions on the federal government. States, counties, towns, etc could and did have their own laws that were in not the same (e.g. restrictions on free speech or gun ownership) and were not seen as being in conflict with the Bill of Rights because, again, the Bill of Rights were specifically and only restrictions on the federal government. The 14 Amendment and several subsequent Supreme Court decisions basically brought the US Bill of Rights down to all levels of government. So now the city of Baltimore has exactly the same responsibility as the federal government to not favor one religion over another, etc.



              Second, there have been and continue to be restrictions on which arms a citizen can own. The average joe doesn't get his own atomic bomb, for example. And restrictions on how one can buy a firearm have changed too (if you accept Oswald as JFK's killer, he did the deed with a mail order rifle; you can't buy modern rifles via mail order anymore).



              This said, the whole arm yourself to the teeth has become more prevalent since about the mid-1970s.
              Originally Posted by requiem156



              I don't have to find something to dislike - it comes naturally.

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              • #8






                Quote Originally Posted by chainsaw fats
                View Post

                First...



                This said, the whole arm yourself to the teeth has become more prevalent since about the mid-1970s.




                I believe you've racked up more years than me - and will defer to you on this. I see it as a result of general paranoia resulting from growing up in the US during the cold war. Some families didn't give a rat's ass, some built bomb shelters.



                Would be interested to hear from anyone else that grew up during that era.
                Originally Posted by mike moriarty


                Looks like an amp for old people.









                Originally Posted by syscrusher


                If the world didn't suck, we would fall off.









                Originally Posted by PerfectTommy


                kudos to Furtive for a clear and well-reasoned discussion. so rare to see something that has been thought through and presented rationally.

                Comment


                • #9
                  FWIW the percentage of households that own firearms has actually fallen pretty significantly in the past 30 years or so. A heavily urbanized society is a society that doesn't do a lot of hunting. However, the number of firearms owned by private citizens has skyrocketed because of the rise of "DON'T TREAD ON MAH FREEBURTY" types (like my uncle ) in the past 40 years.



                  As for JJ's contention that criminals would just get guns on the black market: a very large percentage of the handguns used in crimes throughout the Northeast come from legal purchases in Southern states that, thanks largely to NRA-sponsored legislation, have almost no limitations on the quantity of handguns that an individual can purchase. Similar situations exist in Illinois (via Indiana) and California (via Nevada). The flow of illegal guns up I-95 is often called the "Iron Pipeline." Given that there is no conceivable reason for a person to buy more than one gun a month unless he is planning to resell them, and that permits for resale are difficult to obtain and the holders thereof audited frequently, it stands to reason that these purchasers are acting as straw buyers who are going to resell the guns illegally. Get rid of the straw buyers and the states that turn a blind eye to them and you'd significantly reduce the quantity of guns available on the street in Philly or DC.
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                  • #10






                    Quote Originally Posted by rusholmeruffian
                    View Post

                    Given that there is no conceivable reason for a person to buy more than one gun a month unless he is planning to resell them, and that permits for resale are difficult to obtain and the holders thereof audited frequently, it stands to reason that these purchasers are acting as straw buyers who are going to resell the guns illegally.




                    I might be ignorant - but do understand, it's genuine ignorance. I don't doubt the "iron pipeline" - although this is the first time I've heard of it, living in northern DE (30 yards from I-95). But as far as purchases go - I bought 2 guns in July online as a single purchase. My FFL guy lives about a half mile away, in my neighborhood. No questions or issue during that purchase. No way would I consider being a straw buyer in this country. To take it a step further - I did buy my dad a gun for father's day. It didn't go into his hands until we completed the ownership transfer at an FFL dealer. I'm not NRA, but believe that individual responsibility is key when it comes to owning a gun in the US. If we have the right to own a gun, then treat that right with respect.



                    Of course, that **************** goes right out the window with people that are willing to disregard all of it for a $20 in hand.
                    Originally Posted by mike moriarty


                    Looks like an amp for old people.









                    Originally Posted by syscrusher


                    If the world didn't suck, we would fall off.









                    Originally Posted by PerfectTommy


                    kudos to Furtive for a clear and well-reasoned discussion. so rare to see something that has been thought through and presented rationally.

                    Comment


                    • #11






                      Quote Originally Posted by Furtive
                      View Post

                      I believe you've racked up more years than me - and will defer to you on this. I see it as a result of general paranoia resulting from growing up in the US during the cold war. Some families didn't give a rat's ass, some built bomb shelters.



                      Would be interested to hear from anyone else that grew up during that era.




                      I was born in 1961.

                      Both my grandfathers hunted and all my uncles hunted. Mostly deer, grouse and pheasants. My dad's father lived in Alaska in the 50's and had a plane. He did a lot of hunting and all my uncles on that side of the family made it up to hunt moose, caribou and sheep.



                      I don't remember ever seeing a handgun. There must have been some but I don't remember ever seeing anyone shoot one and I know I never did.

                      There were a lot of rifles and shotguns, all hunting, certainly no assault weapons.

                      All my uncles including my dad were in the service during the Korean war.

                      None of them ever bragged about being a warrior. Ever.



                      My moms dad had a gun case with 3-4 rifles and 3-4 shotguns. He also had .44 magnum revolver. It was the only handgun I ever knew anyone to own until much later in life. It hung inside his locked gun case which my younger cousin and I broke into several times so we could **************** around with the revolver.

                      We found where he hid the key.



                      None of my neighbors had any hand guns that I was aware of when I was kid. I remember a few shotguns. This was during the "Wonder Years". We all had the run of the neighborhood and were in and out of each others houses all the time. Everyone else's mom was one step away from being your mom. My point being that you had a really strong sense of what everyone else's family was like and they were pretty homogeneous for suburban Minneapolis.

                      People didn't really talk about guns. Not because they were taboo but because no one seemed all that interested beyond hunting.



                      When I first went to collage in the early 80's I NEVER saw anyone with a handgun. None of my very large extended network of friends had one ( I "partied" a lot ).

                      I would have remembered. Hand guns were for shooting people, they had that air of danger surrounding them. Shotguns were for shooting birds. Probably half my close friends had a shotgun or access to their dad's and we went bird hunting frequently enough.



                      I moved to Montana 25 years ago and it was the early 90's when I started running into handguns more frequently. I knew some coke heads when I worked at Big Sky who seemed to want to be all Miami Vice. They had hand guns and were major league idiots, but you know if you want some cocaine at the ski resort you have to deal with those people.



                      Rancher cowboy types all had gun racks in the windows of their trucks and there was usually a gun or two in them partially, I think, because it suited there image but also because on a real working ranch you need a rifle to shoot coyotes and other varmints not to mention to put down stock every now and then and maybe threaten a trespasser.

                      Come to think of it I don't see a whole lot of rifles in truck gun racks anymore. Maybe fear of having them stolen?



                      In the last ten to fifteen years I have run into ****************loads of people out shooting hand guns. I've run into people out shooting assault rifles on quite a few occasions, once I ran into about 10-15 people in paramilitary garb shooting away out on Revenue Flats, a local climbing, hiking, mountain biking spot. I was on my bike. It was pretty ****************ing freaky and there were a lot of bullets whizzing around. I rode out of there as fast as I could.



                      I have met quite a few people who own handguns now and somehow manage to bring it up or just have them sitting around. It just simply was not like this 25 years ago.

                      I also see people doing the open carry thing far more often now than I did when I first moved to Montana and our latest batch of tea partiers have come up with more pro-gun bills in the last 4 years. It's not like Montana has EVER been anti gun in ANY shape form or fashion.



                      And finally, I have now had my fourth almost getting shot by accident incident this last summer out fishing on the Beaverhead, bullets whizzing all over the place, us ducking and yelling as loud as we can to stop ****************ing shooting and they keep on shooting until we float out from their general line of fire, ****************ing idiots.

                      Comment


                      • #12






                        Quote Originally Posted by Calum
                        View Post

                        Was there a particular period time when guns became more readily available or affordable though? Eg mass production combined with an increase in the standard of living? Say, in the 40s or 50s? Or has it just happened gradually/sort of always been like that?




                        The big bump came in the Reagan years. Cocaine cowboys in Miami, the war on drugs, crack, all leading up to Desert Storm. And on from there. Way farther on!



                        Fun fact, not necessarily completely accurate. In 1995, Ruger (RGR) stock was $2.50 a share. In 2005, it was $7.00. In November 2012, it was $ 37.00. Big money.






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                        • #13






                          Quote Originally Posted by Expressway to yr Skull
                          View Post

                          Everyone knows that as far as gun regulation is concerned, the sheer number of guns in the US has led to an arms race where a huge number of people have armed themselves to defend against the potential that someone who is most likely armed due to the lax gun laws and easy availability of firearms breaks in their house/attempts to rape them etc etc...



                          When did this particular horse bolt and when was the time that the stable door could have been closed to good effect?




                          As to the popularity of handguns for competition and recreational shooting, collecting and self defence, I think the post
                          Bloofer Lady Scooter Ride

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            kudos to Furtive for a clear and well-reasoned discussion. so rare to see something that has been thought through and presented rationally.





                            Rosholmeruffian: come on: "Given that there is no conceivable reason for a person to buy more than one gun a month unless he is planning to resell them," are you serious? what about about a collector? is that conceivable? how about a competitor looking for and edge in gear, buying multiple pieces for comparison? is that conceivable? how about someone who intends to make gifts of firearms to others (yes, it happens!); is that conceivable? what about someone who sees a great deal on an item and decides to stock up on several; is that conceivable? think. also, your "percentage" remark is unfounded.
                            Originally Posted by Motorik


                            .... poster boy of coolness. He's all peak-human badass with no negative qualities. He's the likeable guy who kicks the **************** out of bad guys and all the girls love him.









                            Originally Posted by StringJunky


                            Gay lung is just one of those techniques that some guitarists use effectively, and some use waaaaay too much. Like sweep-picking or rasgueaos on a six-string bass. I think twenty years from now, we'll look back and say "Gay lung was over-rated."









                            Originally Posted by Flamencology


                            ...But PerfectTommy is RIGHT.

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                            • #15






                              Quote Originally Posted by Furtive
                              View Post

                              I'm not 100% on this, but I'd hazard "always been like that".



                              To understand America's fascination with guns, look at our timeline in comparison to number of wars fought by Americans. There has been a war for each generation, since the 1750s. That is the response I provided to a buddy in Mexico, when asked the same question.



                              I've brought two foreigners (my wife - Mexican, and a friend - English) to the firing range for their first time. One enjoyed it, the other did not. One took pleasure in the simple act of sending a projectile at a target, the other experienced fear due to the perception of chaos due to noise.










                              Quote Originally Posted by Norsegod
                              View Post

                              I was born in 1961.

                              Both my grandfathers hunted and all my uncles hunted. Mostly deer, grouse and pheasants. My dad's father lived in Alaska in the 50's and had a plane. He did a lot of hunting and all my uncles on that side of the family made it up to hunt moose, caribou and sheep.



                              I don't remember ever seeing a handgun. There must have been some but I don't remember ever seeing anyone shoot one and I know I never did.

                              There were a lot of rifles and shotguns, all hunting, certainly no assault weapons.

                              All my uncles including my dad were in the service during the Korean war.

                              None of them ever bragged about being a warrior. Ever.



                              My moms dad had a gun case with 3-4 rifles and 3-4 shotguns. He also had .44 magnum revolver. It was the only handgun I ever knew anyone to own until much later in life. It hung inside his locked gun case which my younger cousin and I broke into several times so we could **************** around with the revolver.

                              We found where he hid the key.



                              None of my neighbors had any hand guns that I was aware of when I was kid. I remember a few shotguns. This was during the "Wonder Years". We all had the run of the neighborhood and were in and out of each others houses all the time. Everyone else's mom was one step away from being your mom. My point being that you had a really strong sense of what everyone else's family was like and they were pretty homogeneous for suburban Minneapolis.

                              People didn't really talk about guns. Not because they were taboo but because no one seemed all that interested beyond hunting.



                              When I first went to collage in the early 80's I NEVER saw anyone with a handgun. None of my very large extended network of friends had one ( I "partied" a lot ).

                              I would have remembered. Hand guns were for shooting people, they had that air of danger surrounding them. Shotguns were for shooting birds. Probably half my close friends had a shotgun or access to their dad's and we went bird hunting frequently enough.



                              I moved to Montana 25 years ago and it was the early 90's when I started running into handguns more frequently. I knew some coke heads when I worked at Big Sky who seemed to want to be all Miami Vice. They had hand guns and were major league idiots, but you know if you want some cocaine at the ski resort you have to deal with those people.



                              Rancher cowboy types all had gun racks in the windows of their trucks and there was usually a gun or two in them partially, I think, because it suited there image but also because on a real working ranch you need a rifle to shoot coyotes and other varmints not to mention to put down stock every now and then and maybe threaten a trespasser.

                              Come to think of it I don't see a whole lot of rifles in truck gun racks anymore. Maybe fear of having them stolen?



                              In the last ten to fifteen years I have run into ****************loads of people out shooting hand guns. I've run into people out shooting assault rifles on quite a few occasions, once I ran into about 10-15 people in paramilitary garb shooting away out on Revenue Flats, a local climbing, hiking, mountain biking spot. I was on my bike. It was pretty ****************ing freaky and there were a lot of bullets whizzing around. I rode out of there as fast as I could.



                              I have met quite a few people who own handguns now and somehow manage to bring it up or just have them sitting around. It just simply was not like this 25 years ago.

                              I also see people doing the open carry thing far more often now than I did when I first moved to Montana and our latest batch of tea partiers have come up with more pro-gun bills in the last 4 years. It's not like Montana has EVER been anti gun in ANY shape form or fashion.



                              And finally, I have now had my fourth almost getting shot by accident incident this last summer out fishing on the Beaverhead, bullets whizzing all over the place, us ducking and yelling as loud as we can to stop ****************ing shooting and they keep on shooting until we float out from their general line of fire, ****************ing idiots.








                              Thanks, that's very interesting.
                              "You ill mannered sack of ****************e."

                              Kylie Minogue

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