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Why do people seem to have such an issue with jazz music nowadays?!

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  • Why do people seem to have such an issue with jazz music nowadays?!

    Seriously, I have been given so much **************** for liking jazz, it's not funny any more. At best, I've been called a snob. At worst, I've actually been actively singled out for it and bullied and harassed. I'm honestly wondering why people can have some of the weirdest ideas about a single genre of music and give someone hassle for liking it.

     

    Any ideas?

    Originally Posted by Motorik


    [Prog rockers are] all babes. It's like the Miss World contest, but with sudden changes of time-signature.

  • #2
    Are you a snob? Are you critical of other types of music when talking about it?

    Comment


    • PhilGould
      PhilGould commented
      Editing a comment

      Heaven's Gate wrote:
      Are you a snob? Are you critical of other types of music when talking about it?

      Unfortunately, yes. It's not so much the type of music which I'm critical of, given I do listen to more than jazz, but the content. I can't stand 4-chord plodding over basic chordal progressions, it annoys me too much. If you're going to write a song, do it properly!


  • #3
    Young people suck. I know, I am one.
    Originally Posted by Motorik


    [Prog rockers are] all babes. It's like the Miss World contest, but with sudden changes of time-signature.

    Comment


    • Honkridge
      Honkridge commented
      Editing a comment

      Jazz is dead.  Thats why you dont have any friends.


  • #4

    I think I encounter more jazz detractors on musicians' forums than anywhere else.

     

    Admittedly, that's probably because your average lay person assumes that if they don't like jazz, it's because they don't understand it.  I think fewer musicians/guitar players make that assumption.

    Comment


    • rickenvox
      rickenvox commented
      Editing a comment

      d3lled wrote:

      I think I encounter more jazz detractors on musicians' forums than anywhere else.

       

      Admittedly, that's probably because your average lay person assumes that if they don't like jazz, it's because they don't understand it.  I think fewer musicians/guitar players make that assumption.


       what other forums do you visit that aren't musicians forums but talk extensively about music.  I wouldn't expect many jazz detractors on a BMW forum.

      I would expect the same percentages of people who don't like jazz in musician and non-musician populations.

      All kidding aside, I love jazz.  I just think it's funny on this forum how jazz usually means jazz-rock, jazz-funk, or Allan Holdsworth.  I digs jazz all the way from Jelly-Roll Morton and Bix to Ornette and Thelonius. Holdsworth ain't jazz.


  • #5

    1. Unfortunately many people who prefer a genre of music measure other genres  by the standards of their preferred genre.  For example jazz fans dissing dance music or rock for not using enough chords. Such a critique is missing the point, those generes are not about chord changes (usually), they have other ways of creating interest such as lyrics, timbral control, dynamics, etc.

     

    2. Every genre of music has something of a language that needs to be understood to fully appreciate it and evaluate relative quality. The language of jazz is more complex and difficult than many other genres, so it takes commitment and time to appreciate it. 

     

    3. Jazz has become institutionalized and made respectable, many people leery of official "high" culture will reject it because that is a sign that it may be dead and it is now associated with rich people, culture snobs, academia and politicans.

     

    4. Many jazz performers completely neglect all semblance of showmanship and are also sloppy about the music. They throw together pickup bands that never rehearse, perform the same old tired standards, and don't do real arrangements, they just have the soloists do their thing in teh same order on every song. Yawn.  Put together a jazz band that does fresh material, actually rehearses and has clever arrangements and you can attract a broader audience.

    "In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."- George Orwell

    My music: http://www.oranjproductions.com

    The first website dedicated to the the baritone guitar: http://www.thebaritoneguitar.com

    Comment


    • PhilGould
      PhilGould commented
      Editing a comment

      Hard Truth wrote:

      1. Unfortunately many people who prefer a genre of music measure other genres  by the standards of their preferred genre.  For example jazz fans dissing dance music or rock for not using enough chords. Such a critique is missing the point, those generes are not about chord changes (usually), they have other ways of creating interest such as lyrics, timbral control, dynamics, etc.

       

      2. Every genre of music has something of a language that needs to be understood to fully appreciate it and evaluate relative quality. The language of jazz is more complex and difficult than many other genres, so it takes commitment and time to appreciate it. 

       

      3. Jazz has become institutionalized and made respectable, many people leery of official "high" culture will reject it because that is a sign that it may be dead and it is now associated with rich people, culture snobs, academia and politicans.

       

      4. Many jazz performers completely neglect all semblance of showmanship and are also sloppy about the music. They throw together pickup bands that never rehearse, perform the same old tired standards, and don't do real arrangements, they just have the soloists do their thing in teh same order on every song. Yawn.  Put together a jazz band that does fresh material, actually rehearses and has clever arrangements and you can attract a broader audience.


      1. People of all genres do this, so I can't see why jazz should be unfairly victimized or singled out for criticism in this respect. Plus I'd be willing to argue that the grand majority of people listening to music will know the slightest thing about how music is played, much less be able to play it themselves.

      2. So in short, jazz (and other genres such as prog) get left behind because society now is too lazy and too demanding of instant pleasure to take the time to appreciate things and especially young people, many of whom are so ignorant of pretty much anything as to be able to appreciate something good when they see/find it, and who prefer to be spoonfed mush over finding something of substance to digest.

      3. Probably, but they'd be missing jazz's roots as 'common' street music played by often the poorest of society or at least the working classes, considered too coarse and too raucous by the upper classes who preferred high classical music. When people talk about 'jazz' they often seem ignorant of the myriad number of different forms and genres of jazz too, incuding the Latin styles, solo, duet and trio/quartet/band arrangements, music composed for the different instruments etc.

      4. Like no.1 above, this could be applied to any genre so why single out jazz? Plus if you truly want to find it, then you can find jazz musicians and bands doing some great stuff and not just standards but original material too as well as arrangments of pieces from other styles. All it takes is a basic internet search or  even better, going to a jazz recital and finding stuff you like.


  • #6

    I've just realized this thread makes me look like a bit of an elitist...

    Originally Posted by Motorik


    [Prog rockers are] all babes. It's like the Miss World contest, but with sudden changes of time-signature.

    Comment


    • rickenvox
      rickenvox commented
      Editing a comment

      PhilGould wrote:

      I've just realized this thread makes me look like a bit of an elitist...


      I wouldn't worry, you just look uninformed. :mantongue:


  • #7
    rickenvox, I addressed that stuff, and sure, it's mostly true, but there are also interviews from the 50s and 60s with Miles and Dizzy praising Armstrong's music with extreme reference.

    Racial tension was there in the 40s and 50s, but by the time of the 60s Civil Rights movement, Armstrong was widely recognized as an icon and elder statesman. Which is how he continues to be seen; as a figure whose vitality transcended the constraints put on black performers. He never looks weak or deferential.

    Our use of the term 'despise' doesn't really have a foundation.

    Comment


    • rickenvox
      rickenvox commented
      Editing a comment
      Flamenc, yes if the word despise was appropriate (I believe it accurately characterized the sentiment behind using the term Uncle Tom) it was only for a snapshot in time. Armstrong broke his silence on civil rights in the 60s, came around to complimenting Miles and other modern jazz artists music, and was in turn given respect by Miles. But that rift in jazz and space in time where Bird and Diz wanted to be the opposite of Armstrong was totally glossed over by Burn's documentary to support his thesis that there was an unbroken admiration and recognition that Louis was the sole cornerstone of jazz. That was absolute fiction.

  • #8

    I don't have an issue with it.

    http://www.reverbnation.com/thedubiouscapture

    Comment


    • #9

      Jazz hasn't been "cool" since the late 50s. It's a lot of music to digest, much less play.

      Comment


      • PhilGould
        PhilGould commented
        Editing a comment
        Well if people don't want to listen to music of any substance and would prefer no-talent corporate mush, **************** 'em. As to playing, more gigs for the likes of me if people can't/don't want to play jazz recitals.

    • #10
      Yeah, I'm with rickenvox. 3shiftgtr's understanding of jazz elitist is really disconnecting, for me. Maybe it's a California/session thing, but so many of the most critically successful records of recent years have been fusion records of sorts, just not of the rock-based variety.

      Comment


      • PhilGould
        PhilGould commented
        Editing a comment
        Critical success and being good can sometimes be two different things.

      • 3shiftgtr
        3shiftgtr commented
        Editing a comment

        Flamencology wrote:
        Yeah, I'm with rickenvox. 3shiftgtr's understanding of jazz elitist is really disconnecting, for me. Maybe it's a California/session thing, but so many of the most critically successful records of recent years have been fusion records of sorts, just not of the rock-based variety.

        What do you mean disconnecting? My opinions of jazz elitism come from playing gigs. From playing with cats that as soon as someone actually does something adventerous, they snark, and auto criticize because it doesn't fit in with what jazz WAS or how they were taught. Someone has to tell them, and it has to be academic and to some degree, pedantic, that it's o.k. to see something as jazz. Then they can accept it.

         

        I've also played with some world class cats that are generous, open and full on amazing. And I find that the ones who are the MOST generous, MOST open, MOST free on their instrument, are the ones that absolutely understand what I'm talking about and are the ones I have learned the most from. And who consequently have the most to teach. 

        I was playing a gig over Chrismas and after one tune was over the alto player leans over and says..."Hey, they call em avoid notes cuz you are supposed to AVOID them." So guess what I did? I spent the rest of the night trying to make the avoid notes sound right. And the keyboard player comes up during a break and goes on and on about how much fun it is to play with someone who says '**************** the rules use your ear".  I didn't have the heart to tell him that I was just trying to piss off alto douche, but he was listening and adapting and a "thing" was happening when he recognized and responded. THAT is ****************ing jazz, not the cockwasher worried about the ****************ing avoid notes trying to tell me I'm doing it wrong cuz I used em in passing. 

         

        My opinion comes from the gig, not from reading Kurt Rosenwinkle articles. 



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