Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.

Should Liberal Darlings get a 'Pass' when they compare humans to primates?

Collapse
X
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post

    No. More specifically, if Roseanne did not know she was black, Roseanne herself would not have racially motivated intentions, but Jarrett upon hearing it would still be reminded of the joke’s legacy—and she would be stung particularly.*

    Given that Roseanne included the Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian group that many loonies theorized to be in the WH with Obama, it’s hard to imagine Roseanne could make the remark without racial intentions.

    Why did you ask that?

    As for Bush, do you acknowledge that jokes about him were not related to a legacy of dehumanizing whites while using them? Do you think jokes about Michelle looking like an ape were NOT inspired or related to this history? (Do you ever read comments on stories on Fox News? Thousands arrive within hours. I encourage you go to read what people still say about the Obamas—and those are just the people who frequent one site.)



    *For example, did I ever tell you about the time I joked with a black coworker that she was particularly “uppity” one day? I imagine you’re a Simpsons fan; remember when Bart sold his soul and said to his cat, “you’re awfully uppity for someone who eats bugs all day.” I come from a super white part of San Diego, and I didn’t know the history of “uppity” in the southern and eastern US. Even though I said it it without racial intentions, my coworker instantly got a look on her face like she had been crushed. She said nothing and walked away in shock. I’ll never use that term like that again; I now know what it means and know I can’t undo the damage I did that day. Context counts; the listening audience counts.
    Very level headed as always. But humans are pretty good at reading each other. I bet you beyond the initial shock of hearing the term, your co-worker probably figured that the last thing you would do is attempt to racially denigrate someone. Otherwise an apology and a short conversation could easily clear things up.

    I get that there is a greater historical sensitivity, but the alternative, submitting to the idea that what color you are mitigates what it is ok for you to say, regardless of your intent, seems at least as bad, particularly in completely naive cases like the one you described. And once you accept different standards for different colors of people, even with noble and empathetic intentions, I think that starts to poison your thinking in subtle ways.

    As far as Roseanne goes, she's made other comments the don't put her in great light and I'm certainly not going to die on the hill of defending her, however I do think we have to try to take into account the spirit and context in which something is said, rather than check what color everyone was against whatever bad words there were.

    And of course Islam is a religion, not a race. All kinds of folks, Bill Mahr and many of our own forumites denigrate religion regularly. Surely no one is saying that should be verboten.



    While she's talking, I'll use my mind to think of other things. She can't stop my mind!

    Comment


    • #92
      I'm a democrat. I compare most things in human life to primates. I'll be specific:

      -we care more about our own egos than the general population
      -we care more about guns than protecting people
      -we care more about making things urban than what urban means
      -we care more about posting than taking true history into account
      -we care more about getting even than listing to the other side
      -we care more about money than people
      -we care more about barbarism than humanity.

      Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post



        As far as Roseanne goes, she's made other comments the don't put her in great light and I'm certainly not going to die on the hill of defending her, however I do think we have to try to take into account the spirit and context in which something is said, rather than check what color everyone was against whatever bad words there were.
        Yeah, the history of Roseanne gives her a lot less leeway for "spirit and context". Which is one reason why the reaction to this HAS been so severe and swift, I think. Does anyone really buy her "I didn't know she was black" excuse? Even if true, she kinda burned up her get-out-of-racism-free card a while back.

        And of course Islam is a religion, not a race. All kinds of folks, Bill Mahr and many of our own forumites denigrate religion regularly. Surely no one is saying that should be verboten.
        Trying to defend something on the "it's not a 'race' so the comment wasn't 'racist'!" argument is pretty weak. There is nothing magical about 'race' that makes insults about such necessarily worse than anything else. A lot of these things over lap. Religion can be a choice but it can also be a culture and an ethnicity. Which is why insulting Jews is usually seen as worse than insulting Mormons.

        Which is why when people start trying to argue that "insulting Mexicans isn't 'racist' because hispanic isn't a 'race'!" inspires such eyerolls. Take the time and effort to figure out the most exact, proper terminology to identify the nature of the people being insulted if you must. But once you have, the degree of the insult will still be just as bad. It doesn't lessen it all to decide something is an ethnic slur rather than a racial one.

        Denigrating a religion? It's a fine line, but I think as long as you mostly keeping it to the actions and the beliefs and not the people themselves, you're going to be OK.

        I try to be respectful of Christians as people. But once we start talking about things like the End Times or a 6,000 year old Earth, then I can get a bit more dismissive of the subject matter.



        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by guido61 View Post

          Yeah, the history of Roseanne gives her a lot less leeway for "spirit and context". Which is one reason why the reaction to this HAS been so severe and swift, I think. Does anyone really buy her "I didn't know she was black" excuse? Even if true, she kinda burned up her get-out-of-racism-free card a while back.



          Trying to defend something on the "it's not a 'race' so the comment wasn't 'racist'!" argument is pretty weak. There is nothing magical about 'race' that makes insults about such necessarily worse than anything else. A lot of these things over lap. Religion can be a choice but it can also be a culture and an ethnicity. Which is why insulting Jews is usually seen as worse than insulting Mormons.

          Which is why when people start trying to argue that "insulting Mexicans isn't 'racist' because hispanic isn't a 'race'!" inspires such eyerolls. Take the time and effort to figure out the most exact, proper terminology to identify the nature of the people being insulted if you must. But once you have, the degree of the insult will still be just as bad. It doesn't lessen it all to decide something is an ethnic slur rather than a racial one.

          Denigrating a religion? It's a fine line, but I think as long as you mostly keeping it to the actions and the beliefs and not the people themselves, you're going to be OK.

          I try to be respectful of Christians as people. But once we start talking about things like the End Times or a 6,000 year old Earth, then I can get a bit more dismissive of the subject matter.


          No, I think it's an important distinction. One of the reasons racism is so cruel is because it negates who one is as a person and reduces them to one insignificant physical trait that has no bearing on their values, beliefs, loves, hates or aspirations. Where groups are defined by an explicit creed, like religion on the other hand, the creed most certainly does influence all of those things, positively or negatively depending on what the creed is. I have no problem saying the creed of the Muslim Brotherhood sucks, and if that triggers the "racism" alarm it won't worry me too much. Although to say someone looks like they're the Muslim Brotherhood? Yeah, I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean exactly. I'm picturing a beard? Maybe a bandolier? A scimitar?



          While she's talking, I'll use my mind to think of other things. She can't stop my mind!

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

            No, I think it's an important distinction. One of the reasons racism is so cruel is because it negates who one is as a person and reduces them to one insignificant physical trait that has no bearing on their values, beliefs, loves, hates or aspirations. Where groups are defined by an explicit creed, like religion on the other hand, the creed most certainly does influence all of those things, positively or negatively depending on what the creed is. I have no problem saying the creed of the Muslim Brotherhood sucks, and if that triggers the "racism" alarm it won't worry me too much. Although to say someone looks like they're the Muslim Brotherhood? Yeah, I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean exactly. I'm picturing a beard? Maybe a bandolier? A scimitar?
            I think the distinction is one between choice. To the degree religion is a choice? Yeah, it's kinda fair game. But when people go after Jews as an ethnicity? Or hispanics as a group? How is that any different than going after blacks as a race?

            And sure. Go after the Muslim Brotherhood. That's a group people join by choice. Totally fair game. To go after Muslims, period? Well, it gets a bit dicier. How many Muslims in, say, Iran, choose to be Muslim? At some point, sure..you can become an adult and decide to opt out of being Muslim or being religious period, but most are going to hold on to that cultural identity. Just like so many Americans are culturally Christian who don't know the Bible from a box of crayons.

            So it's still fair game, but less so. Jews? Well there's that whole "ethnic Jew" thing so now we're back to almost like a being 'hispanic' thing, if not more so.

            So yeah, I think it's almost a case-by-case basis. Gotta be able to know it when you see it.

            Problem is when we have things like this Roseanne Barr deal, which should be a pretty easy call for anyone. Yet so many people are looking for excuses to excuse her or, at the very least, not denounce it. Is Trump ever going to say anything against it? Hell no. All he can manage is to whine that nobody at ABC ever call him up to apologize as they did to Valerie Jarrett.
            Last edited by guido61; 05-30-2018, 11:50 PM.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post
              Heh, all of them combined probably wouldn't add up to the times W was compared to a monkey.

              Here's a question. If Roseanne thought Jarrett was white, are her comments racist?
              Seems highly unlikely given how she tied the Planet of the Apes comment and the Muslim Brotherhood together and ascribed them to Jarrett.

              And Jarrett isn't even the first black woman from the Obama administration that Roseanne has compared to an ape.
              Click image for larger version

Name:	Barr-Screen-Shot-122213.png
Views:	1
Size:	53.9 KB
ID:	32243150


              Flag a Post
              The Report has been sent.
              [OK]

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by willhaven View Post
                Seems highly unlikely given how she tied the Planet of the Apes comment and the Muslim Brotherhood together and ascribed them to Jarrett.

                And Jarrett isn't even the first black woman from the Obama administration that Roseanne has compared to an ape.
                Click image for larger version

Name:	Barr-Screen-Shot-122213.png
Views:	1
Size:	53.9 KB
ID:	32243150
                Odd, that wasn't a widely publicized back in 2013. somehow, Rosanne was allowed to have a hit TV series 5 years later. Hmmmm...what's changed? I'm stumped! hay - wait a minute - stump...dump.....pump.....I think I'm on to something - stay tuned!!

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by emerson biggens View Post

                  Odd, that wasn't a widely publicized back in 2013. somehow, Rosanne was allowed to have a hit TV series 5 years later. Hmmmm...what's changed? I'm stumped! hay - wait a minute - stump...dump.....pump.....I think I'm on to something - stay tuned!!
                  She didn’t have a show in 2013 so there was no reason for anyone to notice or care about her tweet.

                  Sorry that stumped you for so long.

                  You’re welcome.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

                    Very level headed as always. But humans are pretty good at reading each other. I bet you beyond the initial shock of hearing the term, your co-worker probably figured that the last thing you would do is attempt to racially denigrate someone. Otherwise an apology and a short conversation could easily clear things up.

                    I get that there is a greater historical sensitivity, but the alternative, submitting to the idea that what color you are mitigates what it is ok for you to say, regardless of your intent, seems at least as bad, particularly in completely naive cases like the one you described. And once you accept different standards for different colors of people, even with noble and empathetic intentions, I think that starts to poison your thinking in subtle ways.

                    As far as Roseanne goes, she's made other comments the don't put her in great light and I'm certainly not going to die on the hill of defending her, however I do think we have to try to take into account the spirit and context in which something is said, rather than check what color everyone was against whatever bad words there were.

                    And of course Islam is a religion, not a race. All kinds of folks, Bill Mahr and many of our own forumites denigrate religion regularly. Surely no one is saying that should be verboten.
                    I'll have to write you another response and discuss a difference between what's highlighted above and the (liberal?) tendency to look just as hard (or stronger) at the effects rather than the intentions.... also I need to discuss how people who don't feel the effects may be freer to focus only on intention... and I need to explain why I brought up the Muslim Brotherhood (lots of memes and conspiracy theories during Obama era about Jarrett working for Islamist extremists). Not enough time to organize serious thoughts now, but I'll write eventually.
                    Last edited by arcadesonfire; 05-31-2018, 09:38 AM.
                    My band!:
                    www.steelphantoms.com/
                    my stage stuff:
                    fender jimmie vaughan strat, korg dt-10, ts-9, keeley rat, thoroughly modded big muff, 4ms tremulus lune, eventide timefactor running stereo to a traynor bassmaster (w hotplate) and a fender HRD. Everything ('cept the TimeFactor and dt-10) is modded, with much help from folks at Harmony Central. Thanks everybody!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by guido61 View Post

                      She didn’t have a show in 2013 so there was no reason for anyone to notice or care about her tweet.

                      Sorry that stumped you for so long.

                      You’re welcome.
                      But she was appearing on two nationally available TV shows in 2014 (I'm sure that one as astute about the entertainment biz as you probably knows). Does the pain produced by racial epithets have a short shelf life?

                      In the summer of 2014 Barr joined Keenen Ivory Wayans and Russell Peters as a judge on Last Comic Standing on NBC.

                      On November 28, 2014, Barr's series, Momsters: When Moms Go Bad debuted on the Investigation Discovery cable network, a network that she says she's a 'little obsessed with.' Barr hosts the show as herself.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by emerson biggens View Post

                        But she was appearing on two nationally available TV shows in 2014 (I'm sure that one as astute about the entertainment biz as you probably knows). Does the pain produced by racial epithets have a short shelf life?

                        see post #98.

                        Buy a used calendar or two if it helps.

                        Comment


                        • Roseanne was prime time kids programming.

                          Maher is cable adult programming.

                          They have different standards.
                          Maher couldn't say those things if he were in her shoes.
                          George Washington was the man who never told a lie. Richard Nixon was the man who never told the truth. Donald Trump is the man who doesn't know the difference.
                          Venezuela is what happens when you have Trump without the Madison.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by guido61 View Post

                            see post #98.

                            Buy a used calendar or two if it helps.
                            Dec. 22, 2013, she made that observation. 9 days from 2014. Is that the shelf life of an insult? 9 days and change?

                            Why the thinly veiled hostility in your posts as of late? do you have a simian slur you'd like to toss my way?

                            Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hoot Owl View Post
                            Roseanne was prime time kids programming.

                            Maher is cable adult programming.

                            They have different standards.
                            Maher couldn't say those things if he were in her shoes.
                            Maher was fired from his late night ABC show for saying inappropriate stuff.

                            Yes, premium cable is different. News flash there, folks.
                            Last edited by guido61; 05-31-2018, 10:20 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by emerson biggens View Post

                              Dec. 22, 2013, she made that observation. 9 days from 2014. Is that the shelf life of an insult? 9 days and change?

                              Why the thinly veiled hostility in your posts as of late? do you have a simian slur you'd like to toss my way?
                              Summer starts on January 1st?

                              Yeah, I have a different calendar than you, for sure, it seems.

                              Or did her show air in New Zealand?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X