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  • Mass shootings: "the price of freedom"?

    This phrase gets bandied about in one form or another every time there is a mass shooting, it seems. After the Vegas shooting, Bill O'Reilly was on record saying such things are "the price of freedom" in this country.

    But is it really? Is that really the right argument to be making or is that just pseudo-patriotic claptrap?

    Compare our gun laws to Australia. They have some pretty strict gun laws. Laws that certainly wouldn't fly here unless we amended the Constitution. You can't own a handgun unless you belong to a shooting club and participate in 8 shooting competitions a year. Semi-automatics are available only to 'professional' shooters. Farmers can have certain low-capacity semi-automatics. Almost everyone else is restricted to .22s, shotguns and air rifles.

    I'm not proposing we pursue restrictions so strict. But simply from the philosophical standpoint---even with gun laws THIS strict---can it honestly be said that the Australians are any less "free" than Americans? What "freedoms" (beyond owning and using certain guns themselves) are Australians unable to enjoy that Americans can due to these gun restrictions?


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  • #2
    I'll ask again what other Constitutional rights are you willing to infringe upon to save lives?

    Suspension of the 4th would almost certainly go a long way to cleaning up inner cities yet most of us (me included) would be up in arms if a politician even suggested it.

    Scrapping the internet would put a severe dampening on kiddie porn and terrorist recruitment again it's a no go for me.

    The 2nds an easy target as gun owners aren't a large portion of the population anymore but it's still just as important as every other right.

    So yes unfortunately freedom isn't free and sometimes demands a horrible price.
    Last edited by NOS68; 11-06-2017, 05:04 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by guido61 View Post
      This phrase gets bandied about in one form or another every time there is a mass shooting, it seems. After the Vegas shooting, Bill O'Reilly was on record saying such things are "the price of freedom" in this country.

      But is it really? Is that really the right argument to be making or is that just pseudo-patriotic claptrap?

      Compare our gun laws to Australia. They have some pretty strict gun laws. Laws that certainly wouldn't fly here unless we amended the Constitution. You can't own a handgun unless you belong to a shooting club and participate in 8 shooting competitions a year. Semi-automatics are available only to 'professional' shooters. Farmers can have certain low-capacity semi-automatics. Almost everyone else is restricted to .22s, shotguns and air rifles.

      I'm not proposing we pursue restrictions so strict. But simply from the philosophical standpoint---even with gun laws THIS strict---can it honestly be said that the Australians are any less "free" than Americans? What "freedoms" (beyond owning and using certain guns themselves) are Australians unable to enjoy that Americans can due to these gun restrictions?

      We have a lot of foreigners where I work...we have a large contingent from Buglaria...one of my bosses is from Croatia, and we have a one of folks from Mexico and Latin America. I talked to several of them today about this latest mass shooting in Texas...mainly the Bulgarians and my boss from Croatia and all of them without fail said America's gun policies are idiotic...where they all live it's so much harder to purchase a firearm and nobody owns militarized weapons like AK47s and AR15s, and they all said you don't see these kinds of shooting with type of frequency that we have them in their countries.
      Roll Tide!!!!!

      Comment


      • TrumpIsGreat
        TrumpIsGreat commented
        Editing a comment
        Sounds like you may want to move, maybe they want to move back to their countries ?

      • harrycox1
        harrycox1 commented
        Editing a comment
        Care to address his point? That's all ya got?

      • Tom Hicks
        Tom Hicks commented
        Editing a comment
        I think that's all he's got. if you don't like what right-wing gun culture has done to this country don't fix it just leave.

    • #4
      Originally posted by NOS68 View Post
      I'll ask again what other Constitutional rights are you willing to infringe upon to save lives?

      Suspension of the 4th would almost certainly go a long way to cleaning up inner cities yet most of us (me included) would be up in arms if a politician even suggested it.

      Scrapping the internet would put a severe dampening on kiddie porn and terrorist recruitment again it's a no go for me.

      The 2nds an easy target as gun owners aren't a large portion of the population anymore but it's still just as important as every other right.

      So yes unfortunately freedom isn't free and sometimes demands a horrible price.

      Well, there's a pretty good way to miss a point.

      How about instead of simply replying with the same "freedom isn't free" rhetoric I'm questioning, you try answering the philosophical question I posed:

      Exactly WHICH freedoms are the people in Australia lacking that we have here due to their strict gun laws?
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      • #5
        All of the USA's mass killings/shootings have ONE thing in common.....guns. Nobody can deny that, not even the NRA. Mass killings with a knife? Unlikely. As long as so many guns are available at such ease of acquisition then shootings and killings are just going to have to become accepted as the cost of doing business in America.

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by Hoddy View Post

          We have a lot of foreigners where I work...we have a large contingent from Buglaria...one of my bosses is from Croatia, and we have a one of folks from Mexico and Latin America. I talked to several of them today about this latest mass shooting in Texas...mainly the Bulgarians and my boss from Croatia and all of them without fail said America's gun policies are idiotic...where they all live it's so much harder to purchase a firearm and nobody owns militarized weapons like AK47s and AR15s, and they all said you don't see these kinds of shooting with type of frequency that we have them in their countries.

          A lot of it is the mindset we have here about how we need to protect ourselves. I read an interesting piece today that inspired me to start this thread written by an Australian gun owner who initially opposed their gun ban who has since changed his mind. One thing he wrote that stood out to me was this:

          In Australia we don’t want guns to protect our homes. That idea’s ridiculous. When I was growing up, I kept rifles under my bed. One day I was home sick and I was on my way to the loo when I see this guy at the front door shining a flashlight. I thought: I could get the rifle; and then I thought, I’ll just turn the lights on and he’ll run away, which is just what he did. Why would you shoot anybody?

          http://time.com/4172274/what-its-lik...t-gun-control/


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          • #7
            Originally posted by NOS68 View Post
            I'll ask again what other Constitutional rights are you willing to infringe upon to save lives?

            Suspension of the 4th would almost certainly go a long way to cleaning up inner cities yet most of us (me included) would be up in arms if a politician even suggested it.

            Scrapping the internet would put a severe dampening on kiddie porn and terrorist recruitment again it's a no go for me.

            The 2nds an easy target as gun owners aren't a large portion of the population anymore but it's still just as important as every other right.

            So yes unfortunately freedom isn't free and sometimes demands a horrible price.
            There are many types of "arms" that are restricted or outright prohibited, and yet gun owner's seem to think that the 2nd amendment gives them a specific right to own firearms despite that there is no mention of firearms.

            The Constitution has been amended 27 times, so perhaps it's time to amend it again. Besides, the loss of owning firearms would still allow other types of "arms" wouldn't it?

            Comment


            • #8
              The current interpretation of the second amendment is rather recent.
              The NRA masterfully redefined the argument.
              To you I'm an atheist; but to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition.

              Comment


              • NOS68
                NOS68 commented
                Editing a comment
                link?

            • #9
              Originally posted by guido61 View Post


              Well, there's a pretty good way to miss a point.

              How about instead of simply replying with the same "freedom isn't free" rhetoric I'm questioning, you try answering the philosophical question I posed:

              Exactly WHICH freedoms are the people in Australia lacking that we have here due to their strict gun laws?
              Your missing the point so again I'll ask what other amendmentsare you willing to infringe upon to save lives?

              The freedom to protect themselves wiit a hangun, the freedom to enjoy a day at the range with a handgun or AR, the freedom to hunt with a handgun or AR, the freedom to compete in a 3 gun shoot etc......

              Comment


              • #10
                Originally posted by New Trail View Post
                All of the USA's mass killings/shootings have ONE thing in common.....guns. Nobody can deny that, not even the NRA. Mass killings with a knife? Unlikely. As long as so many guns are available at such ease of acquisition then shootings and killings are just going to have to become accepted as the cost of doing business in America.
                How many guns where used in this mass killing?

                https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

                This one?

                https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

                This one?

                https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ack/index.html

                This one?

                https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

                No need to deny BS that isn't even remotely true.
                Last edited by NOS68; 11-06-2017, 05:59 PM.

                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by BadDaddy View Post

                  There are many types of "arms" that are restricted or outright prohibited, and yet gun owner's seem to think that the 2nd amendment gives them a specific right to own firearms despite that there is no mention of firearms.

                  The Constitution has been amended 27 times, so perhaps it's time to amend it again. Besides, the loss of owning firearms would still allow other types of "arms" wouldn't it?
                  I agree!

                  Roll Tide!!!!!

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Originally posted by BadDaddy View Post

                    There are many types of "arms" that are restricted or outright prohibited, and yet gun owner's seem to think that the 2nd amendment gives them a specific right to own firearms despite that there is no mention of firearms.

                    The Constitution has been amended 27 times, so perhaps it's time to amend it again. Besides, the loss of owning firearms would still allow other types of "arms" wouldn't it?
                    Than I suggest you get to work amending it, until then the 2nd stands. And to even suggest it doesn't give a right to own firearms is so farking ridiculous I honestly can't believe you posted that lol.
                    Last edited by NOS68; 11-06-2017, 06:05 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      Originally posted by Hoddy View Post

                      I agree!
                      So Hoddy have you destroyed all your guns?

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        Originally posted by NOS68 View Post

                        Your missing the point so again I'll ask what other amendmentsare you willing to infringe upon to save lives?
                        The ones that doing so doesn't ACTUALLY infringe on any ACTUAL freedoms.

                        The freedom to protect themselves wiit a hangun, the freedom to enjoy a day at the range with a handgun or AR, the freedom to hunt with a handgun or AR, the freedom to compete in a 3 gun shoot etc......
                        Yeah, I covered that in the OP. Outside of the "freedom" to use those guns themselves?---I couldn't think of anything either.

                        Kinda like arguing that restricting the use of heroin infringes upon the freedom to enjoy using heroin.
                        Last edited by guido61; 11-06-2017, 06:05 PM.
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                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Originally posted by NOS68 View Post

                          So Hoddy have you destroyed all your guns?
                          No...but I don't favor outlawing all guns...only certain ones. I did destroy my AK47 a few months ago...I got permission from our company to cut it up into chunks with our steel saw. County law enforcement came out to document it and to make sure I was the legal owner before I destroyed it. I had no use for it anymore and didn't want to sell it...I wanted it destroyed.

                          Roll Tide!!!!!

                          Comment













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