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  • Should hacking by another nation be considered an act of war?

    Looks like the EU is considering making it so under their laws...

    http://www.idgconnect.com/blog-abstr...idered-act-war

    What do you think?

    If the hacking took down our electrical grid and led to billions in financial losses and possibly the loss of human life, I could see the USA considering the hack an act of war and responding accordingly, but I doubt we would if another country merely tried to access computer systems in search of state secrets. Maybe that distinction doesn't matter? Again, what do you think? Should all hacking attacks on the US that are sponsored by foreign governments be considered acts of war?

    **********

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    - George Carlin

    "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

    - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

    "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

    - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

  • #2
    Depends.
    All nations tolerate spying, digitally or otherwise, because they all engage in it.
    But if the hacking involved taking down the grid or otherwise destroying property, especially on a massive basis, I think you would see most citizens considering this to be an act of war.
    Last edited by RogueGnome; 11-06-2017, 05:32 PM.
    To you I'm an atheist; but to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition.

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    • #3
      That's why its called cyber warfare
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      • #4
        Originally posted by RogueGnome View Post
        Depends.
        All nations tolerate spying, digitally or otherwise, because they all engage in it.
        But if the hacking involved taking down the grid or otherwise destroying property, especially on a massive basis, I think you would see ost citizens considering this to be an act of war.
        This, IMO it depends on the outcome and/or goals of the hack.

        Though I wouldn't say we tolerate spying we know it's going on and try and do all we can to stop it.
        Last edited by NOS68; 11-06-2017, 01:28 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post
          Looks like the EU is considering making it so under their laws...

          http://www.idgconnect.com/blog-abstr...idered-act-war

          What do you think?

          If the hacking took down our electrical grid and led to billions in financial losses and possibly the loss of human life, I could see the USA considering the hack an act of war and responding accordingly, but I doubt we would if another country merely tried to access computer systems in search of state secrets. Maybe that distinction doesn't matter? Again, what do you think? Should all hacking attacks on the US that are sponsored by foreign governments be considered acts of war?
          only if it works both ways
          As a human being, you come with the whole range of inner possibilities
          from the deepest hell to the highest states.

          It is up to you which one you choose to explore
          .

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          • #6
            Originally posted by onelife View Post

            only if it works both ways
            So only if similar hacking attempts by the US Government are also considered acts of war?

            **********

            "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

            - George Carlin

            "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

            - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

            "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

            - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post
              Should hacking by another nation be considered an act of war?

              Looks like the EU is considering making it so under their laws...

              http://www.idgconnect.com/blog-abstr...idered-act-war

              What do you think?

              If the hacking took down our electrical grid and led to billions in financial losses and possibly the loss of human life, I could see the USA considering the hack an act of war and responding accordingly, but I doubt we would if another country merely tried to access computer systems in search of state secrets. Maybe that distinction doesn't matter? Again, what do you think? Should all hacking attacks on the US that are sponsored by foreign governments be considered acts of war?
              In this as in many other things, there are varying degrees of hacking, but in some instances, hacking is indeed an act of war.

              Computer hacking began as a game; a way for computer programmers to show off and have a little fun at others' expense. It turned serious when hackers used their abilities to ''punish'' companies they didn't like. Then the companies fought back and started hacking in order to gain an advantage in business.

              Then governments got involved and started hacking each other for even more malicious purposes. One example is when the Untied Skates and Israel joined forces to attack the control mechanisms in Iran's nuclear materials refineries. Then, Kim Jong Un launched a cyberattack on Sony, exposing everything from salaries to the plots of upcoming productions. If this continues to escalate, corporate cyberspying will damage the marketplace as company secrets are stolen.

              Worse still would be a cyberattack on a country's industrial and financial network. An economy could be ruined by making electronic funds transfers unreliable, for example. Or if the control mechanisms at a nuclear power plant, a hydroelectric dam or the grid controls for the electrical utilities were hacked and disables. Or worse, re-programmed to turn on or off when they shouldn't.

              The ultimate cyber warfare would of course involve the military. Consider what would happen if someone faked the nuclear launch codes and sent them to guided missile submarines or underground launch facilities and ordered up an attack. With no confirmation other than the books on the shelves, commanders might launch their weapons, unknowingly starting World War Three, rather than ending it.

              I'm sure others can think of other situations where hacking with malice aforethought would cause great trouble for the victim nation, but you get the idea. Hacking is no longer a game for individuals and the governments who are doing it aren't in it for kicks. If someone who masterminds such an attack causes death and destruction, I think he or she might be given a seat in the electric chair. It would only be fitting.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post
                Looks like the EU is considering making it so under their laws...

                http://www.idgconnect.com/blog-abstr...idered-act-war

                What do you think?

                If the hacking took down our electrical grid and led to billions in financial losses and possibly the loss of human life, I could see the USA considering the hack an act of war and responding accordingly, but I doubt we would if another country merely tried to access computer systems in search of state secrets. Maybe that distinction doesn't matter? Again, what do you think? Should all hacking attacks on the US that are sponsored by foreign governments be considered acts of war?
                I suspect that the US and UK governments both engage in hacking of other governments to some extent, and if that's true, it'd be a bit hypocritical to view it differently for other nations.

                I view it in the same way that I view government espionage - morally questionable and potentially very dangerous, but it is always to be expected, and guarded against. Making laws about it won't change anything.
                Strangers on this road we are on,
                and we are not two, we are one.

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                • #9
                  If said hacking takes the lives of citizens, then yes it could be considered an act of war.

                  Otherwise no, just hack back.
                  tRump is NOT great, nor will history EVER say he was.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post
                    So only if similar hacking attempts by the US Government are also considered acts of war?
                    yes
                    As a human being, you come with the whole range of inner possibilities
                    from the deepest hell to the highest states.

                    It is up to you which one you choose to explore
                    .

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gromit View Post

                      I suspect that the US and UK governments both engage in hacking of other governments to some extent, and if that's true, it'd be a bit hypocritical to view it differently for other nations.

                      I view it in the same way that I view government espionage - morally questionable and potentially very dangerous, but it is always to be expected, and guarded against. Making laws about it won't change anything.
                      If the hacking is done in an attempt to gain information - for espionage purposes, then I would generally agree with you. If it is malicious and causes physical harm or loss of life, then I would tend to consider it an act of war, as opposed to espionage. YMMV
                      **********

                      "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

                      - George Carlin

                      "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

                      - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

                      "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

                      - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Fear speculating and paranoia mongering.

                        Planting the seeds of dissent are the usual antecedents precipitating conflicts, followed by rabble rousing. The we have certain political players soap-boxing how we must protect ourselves (by buying into the military industrial complex they're heavily invested in) citing all kinds of threatening hobgoblins - like Iraq, for instance - and the IM buy into it for the sake of patriot duty or some such smokescreen. But, it all starts with propositions like this thread starter.

                        Military hardware is always in a state of advancement with itchy trigger-fingered, brain dead uniformed mobs salivating for the next theater proving ground to employ it. Tell me how that continuously occurs. How does it get sparked? By instilling paranoia and selling fear.

                        The acts of cyber aggression becoming easier and easier to commit can make anyone an aggressor. The internet and wireless communication interception is child's play so we have to ask ourselves how to thwart attack by children. If we can't, and continue to knowingly expose ourselves to it, then any blame needs to be redirected. But, no, we react exactly like children and push back rather than walk away.

                        In the 2nd WW the German code was busted when their Enigma machine was captured. The German high command never took to task baiting their correspondences with misinformation to measure the enemy's reaction to it. Had they done that they would have learned that Enigma had been compromised. From there the necessary steps to protect their sensitive communications would have been academic.

                        Here we are poo-pooing cyber attack as an act of war, lol. Aw, Igor stumble into our magazine and get our powder all wet? Bad, bad Igor!

                        North Korea's Kim Jong Un has demonstrated the child for us who cites anything that rubs him wrong as an act of war. Pretty damned silly but formally declaring war for eaves-dropping isn't so much an act of aggression as it is an act of invitation to be eaves-dropped upon through lax security. You can't have it both ways. A man who unwittingly drops a 10-dollar bill on bowery street deserves to lose his money.

                        Fisher House Foundation

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                        • #13
                          The EU comes up with some wacky stuff from time to time. This one can probably be filed under unenforceable and self defeating, along with straight bananas.
                          flip the phase

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                          • #14
                            Tough question. Because in the end, if we're hacked, it's ultimately our fault.

                            You can't hack what isn't "hackable".

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                            • #15
                              If it's done with the intent of harming persons or assets, or compromising sensitive information, yes.
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