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  • #31
    Originally posted by capitalist View Post
    Uh, many of the owners are siding with the players that are kneeling. So, good luck with that. Also, many court decisions have ruled that Constitutional rights do not end at the door of an employer.
    They sided with the players in regard to what Trump said. I doubt they are siding with players in terms of what's happening to NFL ratings as a result of the protests.

    Regarding rights not ending at an employer's door: Of course, many rights extend inside your employment. Nobody would suggest you aren't entitled to 4th or 5th Amendment protections at work. But a function of the courts is to balance rights between competing interests. Your 1st Amendment rights don't automatically override your employer's property or contract rights.

    From Rule 5 (Players, Substitutes, Equipment, General Rules), Article 8 (PERSONAL MESSAGES) of the offical NFL Rulebook:

    PERSONAL MESSAGES

    Throughout the period on game-day that a player is visible to the stadium and television audience (including in pregame warm-ups, in the bench area, and during postgame interviews in the locker room or on the field), players are prohibited from wearing, displaying, or otherwise conveying personal messages either in writing or illustration, unless such message has been approved in advance by the League office. Items to celebrate anniversaries or memorable events, or to honor or commemorate individuals, such as helmet decals, and arm bands and jersey patches on players’ uniforms, are prohibited unless approved in advance by the League office. All such items must relate to team or League events or personages. The League will not grant permission for any club or player to wear, display, or otherwise convey messages, through helmet decals, arm bands, jersey patches, or other items affixed to game uniforms or equipment, which relate to political activities or causes, other non-football events, causes or campaigns, or charitable causes or campaigns. Further, such armbands and jersey patches must be modest in size, tasteful, noncommercial, and non-controversial; must not be worn for more than one football season; and if approved for use by a specific team, must not be worn by players on other teams in the League.


    I suspect the league and the owners will continue to remain relatively quiet and hope this blows over, but I suspect they will have their hands forced if viewership continues to drop. As of now, it's dropping.

    Gotta be careful about pissing off customers.
    Last edited by rbstern; 09-24-2017, 03:57 PM.

    Current global warming temperature trend: 0.05ºC per decade, plus or minus 0.1ºC (source: UN IPCC AR5) ...Yes, the error rate is higher than the estimated rate of change.

    "Anthropogenic global warming is a proposed theory whose basic mechanism is well understood, but whose magnitude is highly uncertain. The growing evidence that climate models are too sensitive to CO2 has implications for the attribution of late-20th-century warming and projections of 21st-century climate. If the recent warming hiatus is caused by natural variability, then this raises the question as to what extent the warming between 1975 and 2000 can also be explained by natural climate variability." --Dr. Judith Curry, chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by guido61 View Post

      How is kneeling while the national anthem is being played "preaching" to anyone? It's a personal thing. It's THEIR business. You rather they feel FORCED to do something they don't personally agree with?

      Is anyone even watching the games during the national anthem? Isn't that when everyone is still getting settled in or taking a piss or whatever? Colin Kaepernick was NOT the one to make a big deal out of it. He did it quietly and personally. He wasn't "preaching" to anyone.



      Yes, the employer has rights too. But this isn't about players kneeling against the wishes of their employers, is it? So why are you trying to make THAT the issue here?


      They probably could. But, for the most part, it seems like the teams are supporting the players.

      OTHO, we have a POTUS telling these private businesses that these players should be fired. I just LOVE LOVE LOVE all the conservative/libertarian hypocrisy at play here.

      Don't you?
      LOVE THINE EMENY !! )
      __________-------------------------------------__________________________---------------
      "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." ---Albert Einstein

      What is more liberal than this ?? )
      We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union ...

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by rbstern View Post

        They sided with the players in regard to what Trump said. I doubt they are siding with players in terms of what's happening to NFL ratings as a result of the protests.

        Regarding rights not ending at an employer's door: Of course, many rights extend inside your employment. Nobody would suggest you aren't entitled to 4th or 5th Amendment protections at work. But a function of the courts is to balance rights between competing interests. Your 1st Amendment rights don't automatically override your employer's property or contract rights.

        From Rule 5 (Players, Substitutes, Equipment, General Rules), Article 8 (PERSONAL MESSAGES) of the offical NFL Rulebook:

        PERSONAL MESSAGES

        Throughout the period on game-day that a player is visible to the stadium and television audience (including in pregame warm-ups, in the bench area, and during postgame interviews in the locker room or on the field), players are prohibited from wearing, displaying, or otherwise conveying personal messages either in writing or illustration, unless such message has been approved in advance by the League office. Items to celebrate anniversaries or memorable events, or to honor or commemorate individuals, such as helmet decals, and arm bands and jersey patches on players’ uniforms, are prohibited unless approved in advance by the League office. All such items must relate to team or League events or personages. The League will not grant permission for any club or player to wear, display, or otherwise convey messages, through helmet decals, arm bands, jersey patches, or other items affixed to game uniforms or equipment, which relate to political activities or causes, other non-football events, causes or campaigns, or charitable causes or campaigns. Further, such armbands and jersey patches must be modest in size, tasteful, noncommercial, and non-controversial; must not be worn for more than one football season; and if approved for use by a specific team, must not be worn by players on other teams in the League.


        I suspect the league and the owners will continue to remain relatively quiet and hope this blows over, but I suspect they will have their hands forced if viewership continues to drop. As of now, it's dropping.

        Gotta be careful about pissing off customers.
        I don't think the ratings are down so much or consistently enough that it can be attributed to any one thing.
        ______________

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rbstern View Post

          Here's what I think the problem is for a lot of fans: People watch sports as an escape from real life problems. They don't want entertainers (movie stars or pro athletes), paid with the fan's dollars, preaching to them about ANYTHING. "Play the game and entertain me, please."

          As for constitutional rights: It's simply not an issue. Everyone has a right to state their opinion but, not to be free from the consequences of voicing those opinions. Try standing in front of your employer's place of business with a controversial political sign on the weekend, and you may find you don't have a job on Monday. The employer has rights, too, and you protesting at his/her his place of business while in his/her employ is not a protected right of yours (unless you have a contract that says otherwise).

          I don't know what the NFL collective bargaining agreement says about this issue, but I suspect that owners can terminate player contracts for conduct that is detrimental to the commercial interests of the team.

          The NFL has no rules requiring players to stand for the national anthem...and after the support the players received this weekend from the NFL commissioner, team owners and coaches this weekend...I seriously doubt you'll see any action taken against those players and coaches who peacefully protested during the national anthem this weekend.
          Roll Tide!!!!!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by guido61 View Post
            How is kneeling while the national anthem is being played "preaching" to anyone? It's a personal thing. It's THEIR business. You rather they feel FORCED to do something they don't personally agree with?
            The NFL's job is to protect the business interests of the franchise owners. Consumers are entitled to respond in any way they like to the message they see. Ultimately, that's what we're talking about: Is the protesting likely to be a detriment to the league's interests?

            I believe it is.

            Many members of the American public don't agree with the implied message behind the kneeling (which is basically a gesture supporting BLM message regarding victimization). Some of the consumers look at these athletes, earning millions of dollars per year, and will simply reject that message, some to the point where it turns to disdain for the product.

            This is pretty basic marketing/PR stuff, from a business standpoint.

            Is anyone even watching the games during the national anthem? Isn't that when everyone is still getting settled in or taking a piss or whatever? Colin Kaepernick was NOT the one to make a big deal out of it. He did it quietly and personally. He wasn't "preaching" to anyone.
            Pretty obtuse observation. If he wasn't preaching to anyone, he wouldn't have done this on national TV.

            Yes, the employer has rights too. But this isn't about players kneeling against the wishes of their employers, is it? So why are you trying to make THAT the issue here?
            The rules do suggest otherwise (see my prior post). And it certainly will be the issue, if the $$$ are impacted enough.

            Right now, the NFL and the owners are hoping they can whistle their way past this graveyard. They already have enough problems with CTE and wife beating players.

            They probably could. But, for the most part, it seems like the teams are supporting the players.
            The owners care about money. They will act accordingly.

            OTHO, we have a POTUS telling these private businesses that these players should be fired. I just LOVE LOVE LOVE all the conservative/libertarian hypocrisy at play here.

            Don't you?
            He's entitled to his opinion. Is it good politics? I don't know. Doesn't seem it on the face of things. But somehow, he got elected with similar tactics, so I'm not ready to define the wisdom of this latest choice.

            Current global warming temperature trend: 0.05ºC per decade, plus or minus 0.1ºC (source: UN IPCC AR5) ...Yes, the error rate is higher than the estimated rate of change.

            "Anthropogenic global warming is a proposed theory whose basic mechanism is well understood, but whose magnitude is highly uncertain. The growing evidence that climate models are too sensitive to CO2 has implications for the attribution of late-20th-century warming and projections of 21st-century climate. If the recent warming hiatus is caused by natural variability, then this raises the question as to what extent the warming between 1975 and 2000 can also be explained by natural climate variability." --Dr. Judith Curry, chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology

            Comment


            • #36
              Where were you clowns when these a-holes were disrespecting our flag? Were was tRump's outrage? There was none...in fact he called them 'fine people'.

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              Roll Tide!!!!!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Hoddy View Post
                The NFL has no rules requiring players to stand for the national anthem...and after the support the players received this weekend from the NFL commissioner, team owners and coaches this weekend...I seriously doubt you'll see any action taken against those players and coaches who peacefully protested during the national anthem this weekend.
                I have always believed it's about the money. If the owners' pocketbooks take heat, the league will start to define and enforce rules with the players.

                Believe me, I'm sure they would rather this issue went away quietly. It won't.


                Current global warming temperature trend: 0.05ºC per decade, plus or minus 0.1ºC (source: UN IPCC AR5) ...Yes, the error rate is higher than the estimated rate of change.

                "Anthropogenic global warming is a proposed theory whose basic mechanism is well understood, but whose magnitude is highly uncertain. The growing evidence that climate models are too sensitive to CO2 has implications for the attribution of late-20th-century warming and projections of 21st-century climate. If the recent warming hiatus is caused by natural variability, then this raises the question as to what extent the warming between 1975 and 2000 can also be explained by natural climate variability." --Dr. Judith Curry, chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology

                Comment


                • #38
                  Funny tRump uses stronger language to describe Kaepernick then he does the KKK, Nazis and white nationalists.
                  Roll Tide!!!!!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Hoddy View Post
                    Where were you clowns when these a-holes were disrespecting our flag? Were was tRump's outrage? There was none...in fact he called them 'fine people'.
                    If they showed up at a football game, and I was commenting about football, and somebody posted about it in the thread, I promise I would have voiced an opinion.

                    Not a fan of Nazis, but also not sure it has anything to do with this issue.

                    Current global warming temperature trend: 0.05ºC per decade, plus or minus 0.1ºC (source: UN IPCC AR5) ...Yes, the error rate is higher than the estimated rate of change.

                    "Anthropogenic global warming is a proposed theory whose basic mechanism is well understood, but whose magnitude is highly uncertain. The growing evidence that climate models are too sensitive to CO2 has implications for the attribution of late-20th-century warming and projections of 21st-century climate. If the recent warming hiatus is caused by natural variability, then this raises the question as to what extent the warming between 1975 and 2000 can also be explained by natural climate variability." --Dr. Judith Curry, chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rbstern View Post

                      The NFL's job is to protect the business interests of the franchise owners. Consumers are entitled to respond in any way they like to the message they see. Ultimately, that's what we're talking about: Is the protesting likely to be a detriment to the league's interests?

                      I believe it is.

                      Many members of the American public don't agree with the implied message behind the kneeling (which is basically a gesture supporting BLM message regarding victimization). Some of the consumers look at these athletes, earning millions of dollars per year, and will simply reject that message, some to the point where it turns to disdain for the product.

                      This is pretty basic marketing/PR stuff, from a business standpoint.
                      . When TV ad revenues decrease as a result of this, get back to me. In the meantime, this isn't costing them anything.

                      But I don't know that employers CAN force their employees to stand for the National Anthem. Have courts ever ruled on this? We know they can't force employees to engage in prayer. How is this any different?


                      Pretty obtuse observation. If he wasn't preaching to anyone, he wouldn't have done this on national TV.
                      . Lol. Where was he supposed to do it? He's required to be on the field at that time. He wasn't the one who asked the cameras to zoom in on him or have the media make a big deal out of it.

                      The rules do suggest otherwise (see my prior post). And it certainly will be the issue, if the $$$ are impacted enough.

                      Right now, the NFL and the owners are hoping they can whistle their way past this graveyard. They already have enough problems with CTE and wife beating players.



                      The owners care about money. They will act accordingly.



                      He's entitled to his opinion. Is it good politics? I don't know. Doesn't seem it on the face of things. But somehow, he got elected with similar tactics, so I'm not ready to define the wisdom of this latest choice.
                      I'm sure his 35% love it. But that isn't the point. "Good politics"' or not, it isn't part of his job description to tell employers to fire people over this.

                      Imagine if Obama had said car companies should fire employees who disagree publicaly speak out again environmental regulations or some such.
                      ______________

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rbstern View Post

                        I have always believed it's about the money. If the owners' pocketbooks take heat, the league will start to define and enforce rules with the players.

                        Believe me, I'm sure they would rather this issue went away quietly. It won't.
                        Trump is making sure of that, isn't he?
                        ______________

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by guido61 View Post

                          I don't think the ratings are down so much or consistently enough that it can be attributed to any one thing.

                          [J.D. Power] asked more than 9,200 people who attended either one football, basketball or hockey game whether they tuned into fewer games and why. Twenty-six percent of those who watched fewer games last season said that national anthem protests, some of which were led by Colin Kaepernick, were the reason.

                          In the survey, that was the leading reason for watching fewer games.

                          http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...uned-nfl-games
                          Last edited by rbstern; 09-24-2017, 04:43 PM.

                          Current global warming temperature trend: 0.05ºC per decade, plus or minus 0.1ºC (source: UN IPCC AR5) ...Yes, the error rate is higher than the estimated rate of change.

                          "Anthropogenic global warming is a proposed theory whose basic mechanism is well understood, but whose magnitude is highly uncertain. The growing evidence that climate models are too sensitive to CO2 has implications for the attribution of late-20th-century warming and projections of 21st-century climate. If the recent warming hiatus is caused by natural variability, then this raises the question as to what extent the warming between 1975 and 2000 can also be explained by natural climate variability." --Dr. Judith Curry, chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rbstern View Post


                            [J.D. Power] asked more than 9,200 people who attended either one football, basketball or hockey game whether they tuned into fewer games and why. Twenty-six percent of those who watched fewer games last season said that national anthem protests, some of which were led by Colin Kaepernick, were the reason.

                            In the survey, that was the leading reason for for watching fewer games.

                            http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...uned-nfl-games
                            are ad revenues down?
                            ______________

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by guido61 View Post
                              . When TV ad revenues decrease as a result of this, get back to me. In the meantime, this isn't costing them anything.
                              Hadn't looked at any of this until this thread.

                              https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeoza.../#5be0d072226c

                              But I don't know that employers CAN force their employees to stand for the National Anthem. Have courts ever ruled on this? We know they can't force employees to engage in prayer. How is this any different?.
                              The NBA has successfully fined a player for not standing during the anthem. The NFL has routinely demonstrated it can force a player to speak to media on gameday (see Marshawn Lynch's history with fines and the media).

                              The leagues have a LOT of control over player conduct during gameday. They are selling a product, and player behavior is part of the product. The rules and contracts reflect that.

                              Lol. Where was he supposed to do it? He's required to be on the field at that time. He wasn't the one who asked the cameras to zoom in on him or have the media make a big deal out of it.
                              Standing silently during the national anthem isn't an endorsement of the anthem. However, kneeling is a deliberate act where you are trying to make a distinction about how you feel, and making a public display of it.

                              I'm sure his 35% love it. But that isn't the point. "Good politics"' or not, it isn't part of his job description to tell employers to fire people over this.
                              He's a politician, pandering to a demographic. That's almost the entire job.

                              There are lots of things that aren't in the job description of the federal government. When has that stopped them?

                              Imagine if Obama had said car companies should fire employees who disagree publicaly speak out again environmental regulations or some such.
                              Not exactly a great anecdote.

                              How about, "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon?" That was in a criminal judicial matter, where a man was going to be tried for murder, in a highly public case where it was already going to be problematic to find impartial jurors. Wildly irresponsible public statement by the nation's top law enforcement official.

                              Politicians sometimes say stupid things about cultural happenings. Trump moreso than most, but it's not exclusive to him.

                              Current global warming temperature trend: 0.05ºC per decade, plus or minus 0.1ºC (source: UN IPCC AR5) ...Yes, the error rate is higher than the estimated rate of change.

                              "Anthropogenic global warming is a proposed theory whose basic mechanism is well understood, but whose magnitude is highly uncertain. The growing evidence that climate models are too sensitive to CO2 has implications for the attribution of late-20th-century warming and projections of 21st-century climate. If the recent warming hiatus is caused by natural variability, then this raises the question as to what extent the warming between 1975 and 2000 can also be explained by natural climate variability." --Dr. Judith Curry, chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by rbstern View Post



                                The NBA has successfully fined a player for not standing during the anthem. The NFL has routinely demonstrated it can force a player to speak to media on gameday (see Marshawn Lynch's history with fines and the media).

                                The leagues have a LOT of control over player conduct during gameday. They are selling a product, and player behavior is part of the product. The rules and contracts reflect that.
                                . The NBA fine is interesting. Did the player try to fight it in court?

                                Rules about speaking to the press and doing other things that don't conflict with your personal religion and creeds is a separate issue. It is completely different for the team to say "you can't write 'down with the USA' on your helmet". It's another thing to say you MUST participate in a team-organized patriotic statement.

                                It's hard for me to believe the courts wouldn't decide that businesses must provide employees the opportunity to opt-out of such things. Regardless of whether they are "good for business" or not.

                                My guess is no one has ever taken such a thing to court before?



                                Standing silently during the national anthem isn't an endorsement of the anthem. However, kneeling is a deliberate act where you are trying to make a distinction about how you feel, and making a public display of it.
                                . Then he would have made a big deal out of doing so. He had a huge public platform and instead choose to just silently kneel. If the press hadn't gone out of their way to make a big deal out of it, no one would likely even have noticed.



                                He's a politician, pandering to a demographic. That's almost the entire job.
                                . It exceeds his authority to suggest businesses fire certain people. Full stop.



                                Not exactly a great anecdote.

                                How about, "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon?" That was in a criminal judicial matter, where a man was going to be tried for murder, in a highly public case where it was already going to be problematic to find impartial jurors. Wildly irresponsible public statement by the nation's top law enforcement official.

                                Politicians sometimes say stupid things about cultural happenings. Trump moreso than most, but it's not exclusive to him.
                                Did he say that Zimmerman should be convicted? Did he say his boss should fire him?

                                Not an great analogy either.

                                If Trump had simply said "I think these players should stand for the national anthem" it wouldn't be anywhere near as big a deal as it is him suggesting how such players should be dealt with by private businesses.

                                And if that what was he had said, then your "Trayvon" analogy would be more spot on.
                                Last edited by guido61; 09-24-2017, 05:11 PM.
                                ______________

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