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How The Transgender Crusade Made Me Rethink My Support For Gay Marriage

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  • Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

    And if I saw Caitlyn Jenner in a super market checkout line I certainly wouldn't feel like I had to point out he's a dude, and can't actually know it it's like to feel like a woman as he's never been one. I agree, that would be kinda dickish. But it would be far more dickish to legislate that other people have to act as if he's a woman, which is what you're doing if you say that a proprietor can't say men only in the men's room, or athletic league can't say men only in the men's division. Man, how many medals do you think he would have one if he competed as a woman back then?

    You're fixated on peeing and Olympics, both small parts of life.

    I have to be honest with you, as a man, I like to do my bathroom business in private. I'm forced at work to share a bathroom with other men. I wouldn't be comfortable having to share a bathroom with women, or those who identify as women.
    __________________________________________________
    Politics are like sports, where both teams suck

    Maybe we can all just agree that Bush was stupid and Cheney was lying and call it a day. - guitarcapo

    Originally posted by Grumpy_Polecat View Post
    For the record: Hitler using gas to exterminate his presumed enemies does not equal the use of chemical weapons.
    Reprehensible as it was, gassing was a conventional and accepted method for execution at the time. It is a stretch to equivocate the two.

    Comment


    • Opposite Day
      Opposite Day commented
      Editing a comment
      Just trying to inject some rationality and sanity into the discussion.

    • E-money
      E-money commented
      Editing a comment
      Policing people's genitalia in order to determine where they squat aint rational OD, and it certainly isn't conservative.

    • Belva
      Belva commented
      Editing a comment
      Genetalia Cop. Good band name.

  • Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

    *tsk* *tsk*

    bigotbigotbigot!
    So you agree that imaginary friends is weird?

    Comment


    • Opposite Day
      Opposite Day commented
      Editing a comment
      So you agree that bigotbigotbigot!

  • Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

    Except you're the one acting that way, with your infantile references to peepee checks.
    I'm just responding to the simplistic arguments that I'm given. "That what gender a person is is OBVIOUS. Why are we even discussing something so OBVIOUS?" Would you rather I dance around the mention of genitalia like you do?

    I'm simply saying that if we continue to separate sexes as we have traditionally done with bathrooms, locker rooms, etc.,
    What we have "traditionally done" is little more than a peepee check for separating the sexes. But we can't SAY that, apparently, lest we sound infantile...

    the fact that some people feel psychologically that they're the opposite gender should not disallow administrators of those facilities from restricting them based on physical gender where they have before.
    Yes. the peepee check. But so? And this is a big deal...why? Why do we need the administrators of those facilities to restrict based on physical gender? What does this accomplish for anyone? Who has benefited from this tradition and who will be harmed if we change it?

    And not get out our torches and pitch forks and chant bigotbigotbigot or try to sue them into destitution (as satisfying as we may find that). And of course that goes more for athletics, where instead of being expected to share facilities with the opposite sex we now require that women compete at a disadvantage, all to preserve an idea everyone understands is false.
    Not sure what "sharing facilities" matters as regards people who all identify as the same gender. As I said earlier, if people really believe that some sort of harassment or abuse is at risk here, then they should probably be arguing more for separation by sexual orientation rather than by physical genitalia. (I would disagree with that argument as well for other reasons, but at least there would be some logic behind it.)

    But I do agree there are things that will have to be worked out regarding sport competition one way or the other. But I wouldn't recommend making broad-based decisions for all transgender people just because a few of them might be pretty good athletes.
    Last edited by guido61; 09-07-2017, 02:12 PM.
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    Comment


    • Originally posted by RogueGnome View Post
      I have never believed int he 'slippery slope' theory, myself.
      Please provide a link to the veracity of this.
      'The problem with this reasoning is that it avoids engaging with the issue at hand, and instead shifts attention to extreme hypotheticals. Because no proof is presented to show that such extreme hypotheticals will in fact occur, this fallacy has the form of an appeal to emotion fallacy by leveraging fear. In effect the argument at hand is unfairly tainted by unsubstantiated conjecture.
      Example: Colin Closet asserts that if we allow same-sex couples to marry, then the next thing we know we'll be allowing people to marry their parents, their cars and even monkeys.
      source
      So you only want to talk about requiring people act as if reality is what it's not in one specific case, but don't want to address the problems with that kind of thinking in general. Seems a bit short-sighted to me but ymmv I guess.



      While she's talking, I'll use my mind to think of other things. She can't stop my mind!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

        And if I saw Caitlyn Jenner in a super market checkout line I certainly wouldn't feel like I had to point out he's a dude, and can't actually know it it's like to feel like a woman as he's never been one. I agree, that would be kinda dickish. But it would be far more dickish to legislate that other people have to act as if he's a woman, which is what you're doing if you say that a proprietor can't say men only in the men's room, or athletic league can't say men only in the men's division. Man, how many medals do you think he would have one if he competed as a woman back then?
        They CAN say that. They just can't be the ones to decide for other people that "YOU'RE a man and YOU'RE not". Or, at the very least, the government can't.

        Again---I really can't think of anything LESS conservative than allowing one person, or group of people, to decide for another individual WHO they are and to be able to tell them that THEY are wrong.

        Bottom line---if it doesn't affect you, then why do you care? I don't care if the person across the street from me is a man or a woman unless maybe I wanna ask them out on a date. I don't care if they wear pants or a dress. I don't care if they pee standing up or sitting down. IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

        Why do you think its yours?
        Last edited by guido61; 09-07-2017, 02:17 PM.
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        Comment


        • Originally posted by NOS68 View Post

          Larry why do you keep ignoring this question?
          Yes we are all made in God's image, I am not sure about how that relates to person being confused on their gender.

          Remember the bible also says 1cor 14:33, For God is not the authorofconfusion, but of peace,,,, so guess who may be the author?
          Last edited by LARRY L; 09-07-2017, 02:34 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

            You can call it slippery slope if you want. Once you require that people act as if reality were not reality all kinds of weird stuff can happen.

            Everything we perceive as reality is a manifestation of our mind based on input from our nervous systems.

            Who's mind has a more accurate perception of reality? yours, mine or that of the person who self-identifies as transgender?

            As a human being, you come with the whole range of inner possibilities
            from the deepest hell to the highest states.

            It is up to you which one you choose to explore
            .

            Comment


            • Originally posted by guido61 View Post

              They CAN say that. They just can't be the ones to decide for other people that "YOU'RE a man and YOU'RE not". Or, at the very least, the government can't.

              Again---I really can't think of anything LESS conservative than allowing one person, or group of people, to decide for another individual WHO they are and to be able to tell them that THEY are wrong.

              Bottom line---if it doesn't affect you, then why do you care? I don't care if the person across the street from me is a man or a woman unless maybe I wanna ask them out on a date. I don't care if they wear pants or a dress. I don't care if they pee standing up or sitting down. IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

              Why do you think its yours?
              I'm guessing that it's more rooted in theology than political ideology.
              Like you said, nothing conservative about forced genital checks.
              Last edited by E-money; 09-07-2017, 02:39 PM.
              __________________________________________________
              Politics are like sports, where both teams suck

              Maybe we can all just agree that Bush was stupid and Cheney was lying and call it a day. - guitarcapo

              Originally posted by Grumpy_Polecat View Post
              For the record: Hitler using gas to exterminate his presumed enemies does not equal the use of chemical weapons.
              Reprehensible as it was, gassing was a conventional and accepted method for execution at the time. It is a stretch to equivocate the two.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by LARRY L View Post
                Yes we are all made in God's image, I am not sure about how that relates to person being confused on their gender.
                I think the question is did God make transgender people 'that way' or is it the previously discussed 'God gave people free will' thing again?

                As a human being, you come with the whole range of inner possibilities
                from the deepest hell to the highest states.

                It is up to you which one you choose to explore
                .

                Comment


                • Originally posted by onelife View Post

                  I think the question is did God make transgender people 'that way' or is it the previously discussed 'God gave people free will' thing again?
                  hermaphrodites include plants and other animals.

                  From Wiki:
                  A rough estimate of the number of hermaphroditic animal species is 65,000.

                  How much free will does a snail have?

                  Zip
                  665 - Neighbor of the Beast

                  Originally Posted by RobRoy: I believe that the only way Obama will remain in power is if he suspends elections. And at that point he is no longer president. He is dictator. But I don't believe he will even survive that long. It could be suicide, impeachment by BOTH parties, you name it.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by guido61 View Post

                    I'm just responding to the simplistic arguments that I'm given. "That what gender a person is is OBVIOUS. Why are we even discussing something so OBVIOUS?" Would you rather I dance around the mention of genitalia like you do?What we have "traditionally done" is little more than a peepee check for separating the sexes. But we can't SAY that, apparently, lest we sound infantile...Yes. the peepee check. But so? And this is a big deal...why? Why do we need the administrators of those facilities to restrict based on physical gender? What does this accomplish for anyone? Who has benefited from this tradition and who will be harmed if we change it?Not sure what "sharing facilities" matters as regards people who all identify as the same gender. As I said earlier, if people really believe that some sort of harassment or abuse is at risk here, then they should probably be arguing more for separation by sexual orientation rather than by physical genitalia. (I would disagree with that argument as well for other reasons, but at least there would be some logic behind it.)But I do agree there are things that will have to be worked out regarding sport competition one way or the other. But I wouldn't recommend making broad-based decisions for all transgender people just because a few of them might be pretty good athletes.
                    It's hard to discuss the issue with someone who doesn't seem to understand the difference between "identifying" and being. A man who "identifies" as a woman, has never been a woman, has really no reference to know what it feels like to be a woman, but for whatever reason he really thinks he should be one, to the point of mutilating his body to conform with that perception in many cases (although that doesn't seem to help much). Ok. That's his right, I suppose. If he competes against women in athletics, he will on average, be dominant. This is not because he's a woman who's really good at sports . It's because HE'S A MAN. Men have more robust skeletal structure, more muscle mass, and greater athletic aptitude in general, in a addition to the peepees you often cite (someone was paying attention in sex ed!). This is one front where reality smacks you in the face again. I don't think society will crumble if we have unisex locker rooms, but I certainly don't think we have to disrupt the whole custom of separating genders because leftists believe feeling something makes it so.



                    While she's talking, I'll use my mind to think of other things. She can't stop my mind!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by onelife View Post


                      Everything we perceive as reality is a manifestation of our mind based on input from our nervous systems.

                      Who's mind has a more accurate perception of reality? yours, mine or that of the person who self-identifies as transgender?
                      Heh, you know I love an esoteric philosophical discussion as much as anyone, but I think we have to agree on some practical realities to function as a society.



                      While she's talking, I'll use my mind to think of other things. She can't stop my mind!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BA.Barcolounger View Post

                        How old were you when you CHOSE to be heterosexual?
                        It appears as if this question was never answered.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

                          Heh, you know I love an esoteric philosophical discussion as much as anyone, but I think we have to agree on some practical realities to function as a society.

                          We do, but blurring the lines on gender identity probably isn't going to lead to the breakdown of western civilization.

                          My guess is that you'd feel differently if somebody close to you was a Transgender person.
                          Last edited by E-money; 09-07-2017, 03:16 PM.
                          __________________________________________________
                          Politics are like sports, where both teams suck

                          Maybe we can all just agree that Bush was stupid and Cheney was lying and call it a day. - guitarcapo

                          Originally posted by Grumpy_Polecat View Post
                          For the record: Hitler using gas to exterminate his presumed enemies does not equal the use of chemical weapons.
                          Reprehensible as it was, gassing was a conventional and accepted method for execution at the time. It is a stretch to equivocate the two.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

                            It's hard to discuss the issue with someone who doesn't seem to understand the difference between "identifying" and being. A man who "identifies" as a woman, has never been a woman, has really no reference to know what it feels like to be a woman,
                            Let's stop right here. Where do you get that they "have no reference to know what it feels like to be a woman?" How do you know this?

                            Do you know any TG people? Have you spoken to any young TG kids? How can you possibly say to the person who says they have always known since they were a little kid that they were a girl that they "have no reference to know what it feels like to be a woman?" Try explaining to the parent that no matter how hard they tried to convince their kid that he was a boy that he kept saying "no, mommy, I'm a girl" that they "have no reference."

                            How can you possibly be the authority on this?



                            but for whatever reason he really thinks he should be one,
                            Not "should be one". "IS one". Clearly, it's you who doesn't understand the difference being identifying and being. I know it is important to you to keep holding on to this idea that these people wake up one morning and "choose" to be the "other" sex, but it doesn't work that way.

                            As I said to Larry, you keep speaking in these absolutes as if you know certainly things are 100% true with nothing to support except that "you know" and "that's the way it's always been". Well, these people tell me otherwise. So I should believe you instead of them? Why? You aren't in their heads or in their bodies. They are.

                            to the point of mutilating his body to conform with that perception in many cases (although that doesn't seem to help much). Ok. That's his right, I suppose. If he competes against women in athletics, he will on average, be dominant. This is not because he's a woman who's really good at sports . It's because HE'S A MAN. Men have more robust skeletal structure, more muscle mass, and greater athletic aptitude in general, in a addition to the peepees you often cite (someone was paying attention in sex ed!). This is one front where reality smacks you in the face again. I don't think society will crumble if we have unisex locker rooms, but I certainly don't think we have to disrupt the whole custom of separating genders because leftists believe feeling something makes it so.
                            And I don't think we have to maintain customs that don't work for certain people and haven't worked for them simply because it's makes the rightees feel more cozy and safe.
                            Last edited by guido61; 09-07-2017, 03:22 PM.
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