Members xtianmind Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 I was in a band for about 3 years. I ended up leaving a couple of months ago. I was the lead keyboardist, the lead singer, and the composer for the group. In other words the front man. The main reason I left was because we were getting lots of schedule gigs, for no pay. We would play at very little clubs, usually festivals. When we would get a club gig, they would say, come an audition, and we like it next time it will be paid. We would show up, and the club was empty. And we would never hear back from them after the audition. If we did hear back from them, it would be to come and play for free again. I get a call from the bassist, the owner of the band, not too long ago. He tells me how he has scheduled 6 gigs and he really needs my help. He tells me If I can come to one of the practices. I say okay, to take a look at his new keyboardist, as I have always wanted to sing without playing an instrument. He has two new keyboardist, plus no singer at the moment. The two new keyboardist, are very low skilled. Don't have timing, and the songs sound like a mess. He ask me to play a song, and all of a sudden the group sounds complete and the sound is great. After practice he tells me, about the gigs. He tells me, they are just for promotion, and you know that they do not pay at those. He explains how he doesn't want to seem irresponsible and cancel the events, and he feels that the band is not ready to go without me. All of them but one are free gigs, 1 hour each. The one that is paid is for 4 hours and we split $150 with 8 band members, including me. He pretty much begs me, and bugs me through text, and hopes that I say yes. What kind of sane person would schedule these types of gigs? I stand my ground and say, if they are not fairly paid, I can't go. Did I do the right thing? This Sunday they will be driving about 60 miles to play for free, with a band that is a mess right now. The bassist will be doing the singing, as he has little experience singing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 I was in a band for about 3 years. I ended up leaving a couple of months ago. I was the lead keyboardist, the lead singer, and the composer for the group. In other words the front man. The main reason I left was because we were getting lots of schedule gigs, for no pay. We would play at very little clubs, usually festivals. When we would get a club gig, they would say, come an audition, and we like it next time it will be paid. We would show up, and the club was empty. And we would never hear back from them after the audition. If we did hear back from them, it would be to come and play for free again. I get a call from the bassist, the owner of the band, not too long ago. He tells me how he has scheduled 6 gigs and he really needs my help. He tells me If I can come to one of the practices. I say okay, to take a look at his new keyboardist, as I have always wanted to sing without playing an instrument. He has two new keyboardist, plus no singer at the moment. The two new keyboardist, are very low skilled. Don't have timing, and the songs sound like a mess. He ask me to play a song, and all of a sudden the group sounds complete and the sound is great. After practice he tells me, about the gigs. He tells me, they are just for promotion, and you know that they do not pay at those. He explains how he doesn't want to seem irresponsible and cancel the events, and he feels that the band is not ready to go without me. All of them but one are free gigs, 1 hour each. The one that is paid is for 4 hours and we split $150 with 8 band members, including me. He pretty much begs me, and bugs me through text, and hopes that I say yes. What kind of sane person would schedule these types of gigs? I stand my ground and say, if they are not fairly paid, I can't go. Did I do the right thing? This Sunday they will be driving about 60 miles to play for free, with a band that is a mess right now. The bassist will be doing the singing, as he has little experience singing. Go to Backstage With The Band and search the topic. It has been discusses about 11,000 times and pretty much beaten into the ground with no consensus. FWIW I agree with you. It's one thing to play a free gig because it can open a door for you later It's another to do so because it's about all you can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TieDyedDevil Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 He explains how he doesn't want to seem irresponsible and cancel the events, and he feels that the band is not ready to go without me. IOW, he tried to guilt you into bailing him out of his mess. Walk away. The only irresponsible act in this story was the drummer's having booked six gigs without a functional band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members niceguy Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 What do I think of playing for free? I think it's bull{censored} and I don't engage in such idiotic behavior. I live in NYC, and I've parted ways with several bands who were just fine with playing for free. I look at their Facebook pages now, and they're ejaculating and orgasming about their next big "gig," where they once again will play to a room of their wives, coworkers, and friends. The money they "earn" from the gig will be about $20 in tips----all of which was given by their wives, coworkers, and friends. Rock and {censored}ing roll, indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 5, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 5, 2012 When a club owner asks me to play for free, I ask how many drinks he comps a week...'why a few...but not many; it would be bad for business..' 'Yep, which is why I won't comp you a gig, it is bad for MY business...' To the OP: you did exactly the right thing. You walked away, and just tell the 'owner' of the band that if there is no money in it, then you are not into taking a loss for his rinkydink gigs. Oh, sure, there are the people who tell you that you should play for the love of music...ask them to try telling a music store owner they should give them a brand new Martin or Taylor for the love of music.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 I'm assuming that the band that wanted you did original music? I think that's an important part of the discussion, if we're talking about money. Because here is the reality - DJ's and solo performing musicians can get gigs anywhere because they're inexpensive and usually provide background music for an already existing crowd. Cover bands can sometimes get gigs at places with built-in crowds, but even cover bands need to develop followings because it's expensive to hire a cover band (compared to a DJ.) All original bands pretty much HAVE to have their own crowd, because there's practically no place to play any more where you have a pre-existing crowd that wants to hear original music. Which creates a chicken/egg scenario - how do you develop a following when there's no place to play? And so original acts end up at these venues that want them to play for the door or whatever.* It's easy for us to sit here and say "Oh, don't play for free." But if I put together an all original band right now, where I live, there's no way we'd be able to get a decent paying gig. Still, you want to get paid SOMETHING. *DISCLAIMER - There are still actual music scenes in some cities in the US, where an all original band can ask a decent amount of money. But only if the band already has a following. My take would be this - if you're in an all original band, the most important thing for you to do is work on having a really fun live show that people can dance like crazy to. High energy music. And then work like mad to develop a following - making money is not as important at first as developing a following. I'd consider playing for free ONLY if there were going to be tons of potential fans there. But the only way to gain a following is to make it really fun to attend your concerts. If your concerts consist of 5 guys gazing at their shoes while playing depressing music, you're doomed. Unless you've already sold a million CD's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Bartus Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 Here's the real problem: if you are good at what you do -- a professional -- then playing for free is totally and diametrically opposed to what you should be doing. Antithetical. The only free gigs I do are for legitimate benefits and charities, certainly not for clubs just trying to make a profit. There are plenty of "jammers" who will show up and play for free; club owners often understand that they get what they pay for. There are some that will take advantage of just having any warm body on a stage, and there are lots of hobbyists and amateurs who will work for free just to have a place to play. It's bad enough that club musicians aren't earning much more than they were in the 1980s. It's bad enough that bands are having a real tough time making a go of it when club owners can hire a solo, duo, or (God forbid) a DJ. And now they want us to play for free??? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chevybusa Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 Your post is actually about two things... A) yes you did the right thing, and as someone else said, walk away...hell, RUN, and don't ever look back!!! LOL B) I've ALWAYS been against playing for free since I started gigging back in the day...I can't tell you how many bands I either left of got kicked out of because one or more members wanted to play for free (usually for "exposure" LOL) and I refused...the problem is that there are always going to be those musos out there that are so {censored}ing desperate to get on a "stage" (even if that stage is just the floor of some {censored}ing dive bar with 3 or 4 barflies ignoring them playing while they face the bar and drink) that it's always gonna be an issue. Then there;s the guys that have really good day jobs and just do it as a hobby, and just want to play for fun, they could care less about the money cuz they're already making bank. And I guess at some level there is the issue of personal choice, I mean it's America, if some muso wants to play for free that's their own personal business, I sure as hell don't agree with it but hey, what can you do? It sucks, but then again like I said it usually boils down to the fact that for some reason there's this huge part of a lot of musos that just want to get on a stage and play for others, no matter how completely {censored} the conditions, they don't care, there's just something that drives them to do so...I've never understood it, but it's always been there, probably always will.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beatpoet Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 Back when I was in a band which didn't have a booking agent, not getting paid was pretty much the deal. It's why the grassroots band scene in the UK is so slack and if I'm honest, {censored}e. Playing for free is wasted game, unless you're happy just playing in front of the other bands on that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 Wow, that's the most activity I've seen on this forum in months... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Roberts Posted April 7, 2012 Members Share Posted April 7, 2012 I think it would be a mistake to go back to that band under those circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xtianmind Posted April 8, 2012 Author Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Also a reason that I left was because I felt like I was the guy that all the weight was lying on. Everyone else wasn't even as dedicated, did low skilled work, like shake a shaker, and scratch a guiro. In my opinion, the very little money that we ever did see, got split up to so many people, that I would see very little compared to all the work I actually did. Writing songs is not easy, learning new songs on the keyboard takes time, learning new songs on the voice takes time. Doing vocal exercises, keyboard exercises takes time. Going to practice takes time. Yet all these other people were getting a share of the pie for looking pretty on stage, and moving side to side as "dancers." It got to the point where I just thought, enough is enough. I am starting my own band. And if this band ever grows, I am going to be the owner, because I am doing most of the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beatpoet Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Well there's the thing, don't take it upon yourself to do all that non-music work in a band for free! I made that mistake in a band in the past (out of commitment to the music) and came out of it a nervous wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted April 9, 2012 Members Share Posted April 9, 2012 What Do You Guys Think of Playing for Free? Not much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xtianmind Posted April 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted April 9, 2012 Not much. I'll be sure to invite you to my parties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted April 9, 2012 Members Share Posted April 9, 2012 What kind of sane person would schedule these types of gigs? The kind of person that owns the band and plays bass. Yes Bluestrat is right, this subject has gone round and round w/out a general consensus. You left the band you had because you weren't getting paid and NOW a band you'll just be sitting in with wants to use you and not pay you. That part is a no-brainer. Don't do it.....The second part is : you'll get experience fronting an act w/out having to play an instrument. Is that worth it to you? Perhaps?? I would guess that the "band" will video a show (or shows) to create "video evidence" that they are an existing gigging band (and maybe start an epk).~If audio/video is GOOD he'll use this to book shows and generate income (with or without you since this is not a band you are invested in but rather is just an act you're sitting in with).~If audio/video is BAD there will be Youtube video (for all to see) of you fronting a "band" that is shakey or bad. .....just food for thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted April 9, 2012 Members Share Posted April 9, 2012 A consensus was reached: when you play for free, you actually lose money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted April 9, 2012 Members Share Posted April 9, 2012 A consensus was reached: when you play for free, you actually lose money. When YOU play for free you lose money.When we play for talent buyers in the winter it pays for half of our annual salary in summer clientele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted April 9, 2012 Members Share Posted April 9, 2012 When YOU play for free you lose money. When we play for talent buyers in the winter it pays for half of our annual salary in summer clientele. I don't recall the discussion being about auditions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 9, 2012 Members Share Posted April 9, 2012 I don't recall the discussion being about auditions I think he was talking about showcasing for talent buyers. JP is a full time musician. When I was with an agency full time,we did some showcase gigs as a band to play for agents and bookers for nightclub chains, etc. In that instance, playing for free was well worth it. But those days are gone for part timers like most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 10, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 10, 2012 I re-read the OP, and...you were with this band for 3 years? I'm curious: was this originally a hobby band, or was the intention to gig? I mean 3 years...I have only done that once, and the time was spent crafting both an original show, and a cover act, with 4 part harmonies, etc...the cover act was gigging in under a year, the orginals version took over two years...and it was the covers side that made us break up...after five years together...1986 to 1991...many lessons learned...especially about being an 'originals act' in Los Angeles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xtianmind Posted April 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted April 10, 2012 I re-read the OP, and...you were with this band for 3 years? I'm curious: was this originally a hobby band, or was the intention to gig? I mean 3 years...I have only done that once, and the time was spent crafting both an original show, and a cover act, with 4 part harmonies, etc...the cover act was gigging in under a year, the orginals version took over two years...and it was the covers side that made us break up...after five years together...1986 to 1991...many lessons learned...especially about being an 'originals act' in Los Angeles... When we started it was a band that was going to look for gigs, to earn money. Not a hobby band. Although, I loved it so much, that I didn't have much of an opinion for playing for free. In fact, I was available for any gig scheduled. Never getting paid. There was a period of time that I moved to another state. We had a few clubs that we would get called to play regularly. Apparently when I was gone, they got called by many of these places. I was informed that they blew it at some of these places. So we never step foot in those places again, due to them not calling us back. The owner/bassists philosophy is, we will not stop playing so "our fans" would see that we are still gigging. Mainly our fans were Facebook fans, and myspace fans back then, that rarely showed up at our gigs. Sure they'd hit the like button when they heard we were gigging, but that's about it. I don't mind being 1/4 owner of a band that is making money. But to be 0% percent owner of a band, that is dependent on me to gig, plus no pay, made me realized that I must set a new journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted April 10, 2012 Members Share Posted April 10, 2012 I think he was talking about showcasing for talent buyers. JP is a full time musician. When I was with an agency full time,we did some showcase gigs as a band to play for agents and bookers for nightclub chains, etc. In that instance, playing for free was well worth it. But those days are gone for part timers like most of us. I understood exactly what he was saying- I was just pointing out that he was comparing apples to oranges. I used to do showcases.. Never considered THOSE as playing for free. I was just standing by my original statement that when you play for free you lose money. Auditions and showcases are a whole different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 10, 2012 Members Share Posted April 10, 2012 I understood exactly what he was saying- I was just pointing out that he was comparing apples to oranges. I used to do showcases.. Never considered THOSE as playing for free. I was just standing by my original statement that when you play for free you lose money. Auditions and showcases are a whole different story. Oh, ok. I'm a little slow sometimes. Getting worse the older I get, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Poker99 Posted April 10, 2012 Members Share Posted April 10, 2012 All of them but one are free gigs, 1 hour each. The one that is paid is for 4 hours and we split $150 with 8 band members, including me. lol run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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