Noob topic

[sabriel9v]

I'm more active within the music biz forum and not really this one, but I digress...does anyone think it's possible for major labels to sidestep physical distribution and focus mainly on digital distribution? Like I picture some seriously futuristic stuff where you can purchase a physical copy of a cd at a mom and pop store, but when you go into a large retail chain like Wal-Mart or Target, you would have to go to a music kiosk, scroll through the digital selections and purchase your music that way. I personally think this would greatly decrease the overhead costs for majors.

[slight-return]

 

but when you go into a large retail chain like Wal-Mart or Target, you would have to go to a music kiosk, scroll through the digital selections and purchase your music that way.

 

 

I'm not quite clear on what delivery mechanism you mean - as in how, to where, the data is xfered

[sabriel9v]

Haha, I just posted this in the fx forum, um ok...example:

 

You want the new John Mayer record (yuck btw, but he's a superstar so I'll use him as an example). If you're at Wal-Mart or Target, you would simply hit up a music kiosk, make your selection and voila a zip file or something like it is sent to your e-mail and it contains a digital copy of John Mayer's new album and the artwork. You can do all of this while conveniently shopping for your food, hygiene products and all the other crap you buy at Wal-Mart.

 

If the consumer wants to get Mayer's new cd, but also casually browse for more music, they would go to a traditional mom and pop store and buy a physical copy of the cd. Consumers could browse the aisles, purchase vinyl and in general buy music the way it's been purchased for the past century. The hope is that it will bring additional revenue back into these record stores, but also decrease the physical distribution costs for labels.

 

I'm not sure if the majors would be the first to bite down on the concept because 1) they'd be afraid to cut out the huge retail chains, but also 2) they lack foresight. I could really see this concept working great for indie labels and if they see enough success the majors will follow.

[slight-return]

I don't suppose it's too different than the "crippleweb" target, REI, etc use now (those little terminals that let you order stuff, basically, from the target website) I think B&N allows you to order books, etc

though I don't know the extent of their electronic media services (though that might be picking up with the nook)

 

I'd probably think it'd work better on a user acct system (like amazon stuff or audible stuff ) as sending actual content via email attachment can be tricky and it has the added benefit of steering/tracking customers and customer experiences

 

I suppose on the con side of an email only drop is immediacy that can trigger an impulse buy could be diminished the "oh, I'm going to listen to it when I hit the car" type deal

 

I also wonder if peeps would use the kiosk or just figure "I'll do it when I get home" from their own system

 

I think there have been a few "burn your own mix of single" type kiosk pilot programs which is sort of a hybrid...haven't heard how they are faring

[sabriel9v]

 

I don't suppose it's too different than the "crippleweb" target, etc use now ( those little terminals that let you order stuff, basically, from the target website ) I think B&N allows you to order books, etc though I don't know the extent of their electronic media services (though that might be picking up with the nook)

 

 

Thats exactly where I got the concept from. I also rent a lot of movies from the little dollar movie kiosks and that got me thinking.

 

But it's very tricky because I would assume that the kiosks would essentially be huge hard drives and technically they could crash. Plus like you said, ideally, people would need to set up user accounts ahead of time in order to speed up the process. But something tells me, someone out there is going to mastermind this concept and they're going to make a {censored}load of money. Nonetheless, I feel this is a great concept for a mid-large sized indie label. They're already not putting as much revenue into their acts and really it would be a godsend for them if someone like Target or like you said Barnes and Noble allowed them to install a digital product machine into their stores. They can rely on the mom and pops for everything else.

[slight-return]

I've never used those movie vendors - I get the impression they spit out an actual DVD (that you have to return) -yes?

 

I suppose HDD failure is something to consider, but coinstars, etc have HDDs in em anyway

One problem I find with the kiosks is input device -- (nastied up keyboard, missing trackball, etc) probably more at target than other places

 

[and I suppose you can't comparison shop]

 

One downer on locking out competition, SCOTUS is hearing Bilski right now

 

eh, dunno just throwing around some thoughts

[sabriel9v]

 

One downer on locking out competition, SCOTUS is hearing Bilski right now

 

 

Err, what?

[slight-return]

 

Err, what?

 

 

The Supreme Court of the United States is listening to a case (Bilski v. Kappos - aka "Bilski")

that concerns itself with weather biz methods are patentable subject matter (depending on how the ruling goes dwn, it could have impact on method claims elsewhere)

 

so the practicals for this situation - depending on the ruling, it could be harder to protect against others adopting a similar biz method

[sabriel9v]

Yeah, I read about that after you posted it. I didn't get the full details and there was a lot of political language in the document I read, I suppose I'll just wait until theres a final verdict.

[slight-return]

I wouldn't put it as the pivotal thing in terms of go/no go

and I'm not going to bore anyone with some of the nuances that could effect things (like method attached to a physical device or transformation...which is one of the big issues under legal examination)

 

but it could potentially effect how many could jump on the bandwagon if/when a system like the one proposed gets traction

 

eh, I think you got a handle on that, but figured I'd mention it anyway

[sfarfsky]

Maybe if they could put the music onto my mp3 player/phone/disc. I don't want to mess with going home and then transferring some {censored} to disc or to an mp3 player.

 

Its kinda like the kiosks that sell mp3 players at airports. if I didn't have the foresight to bring a media player wtf makes them think I'll have a laptop to transfer music to a device?

[slight-return]

Maybe if they could put the music onto my mp3 player/phone/disc.

 

I suppose there is a possibility something like USB port , but I have some concerns there

 

-a few of the popular players try to maintain vertical market control by keeping their management control proprietary, so it may not be "write to generic storage" as much as we'd like

 

-proprietary connection cables (unless the user is carrying a cable or has a USB male connector inbuild like a creative, or maybe wireless like a ZUNE or the seemingly stillborn Tao/soniqcast stuff)

 

-it'd require local storage and/or bigger communication pipe (now, some jukeboxes do have a similar methodso it's not an absolute killer, but it could increase installation costs)

 

-Gum in the USB port (seriously, it's been one of my gripes with kiosks...seems like they can get worn out, vandalized, treated not-so-delicately, probably H1N1'd at some places)

 

 

not insurmountable stuff, but concerns none-the-less

 

Alternatively - MS (on the Zune) and Nintendo (with the DSi) have taken a somewhat different approach that sort of obviates the problem -- they do away with the kiosk and use a "marketplace" arrangement on the client devices themselves (they are wireless enabled devices)

[rhino55]

 

Alternatively - MS (on the Zune) and Nintendo (with the DSi) have taken a somewhat different approach that sort of obviates the problem -- they do away with the kiosk and use a "marketplace" arrangement on the client devices themselves (they are wireless enabled devices)

 

 

Hello itunes

[slight-return]

 

Hello itunes

 

 

I haven't used the ipod since gen 2 (don't get my wrong, I can still remember the applesoft reset vector from the ][ era, so it ain't n anti-apple thing) - I wasn't aware that the new gen ipods were wireless enabled

(maybe I'll give em another look next product cycle - provided they dump their proprietary management SW)

 

I mean all the species of "smartphones" are, but those are kind of more multipurpose than just players and there are all kinds of "marketplaces" for that, not to mention just straight web

 

but none of it's particularly new

 

 

I mean, hello Audible...they predate the ipod and itunes

(I'm a legacy member, so I suppose that's one reason I'm not "itnes is the default and the innovator" - as I was purchasing and downloading stuff to my Rio for a couple of years while the world eagerly awaited this new ipod thing)

[richardmac]

I don't see anything else happening but an extension of the current path - online digital sales will continue to go up, CD sales will continue to go down, less stores will continue to carry fewer CD's, and eventually the CD market will hit a bottom floor and sit there - places like WalMart will carry maybe the 200 best selling CD's (current and past.)

 

I do not ever forsee a time when people would, en masse, purchase something while they were out, in electronic format when they can do so right now without leaving the house (iTunes, etc.)

 

I do like the new Bandcamp model - you buy the CD online and it gets shipped to you in a few days, but you get to download the CD digitally immediately. I do see that model catching on.

 

I also see the greedy record companies (those who are still in business) pushing very hard to raise online digital prices. iTunes fought it for a long time and eventually caved. Thanks for playing, Apple.

 

And I see more and more artists dumping their labels when their contract runs out. The big name artists will sign promo deals instead, the little name artists will go DIY.

 

That's what my Magic 8 Ball says.

[slight-return]

 

I don't see anything else happening but an extension of the current path - online digital sales will continue to go up...

 

 

I do have concerns (just concerns - I have no manic 8 ball )that a kiosk type system might be kind of an ISDN type deal...getting leapfrogged by tech early in its life as a product

 

this may already have happened as we get "smartphone convergence" (I'm a little bit of a late adopter on that b/c I tend to need my phones ruggedized - so I keep separate systems for audio, phone, etc)

and as generl devices (like players, game handhelds, etc) integrate more general functionality too

 

where the "kiosk" moves into the device

 

When I have used in-house kiosks, they really struck me as "crippleweb" and it tends to make the shopping experience frustrating as I can't punch out for supporting info (reviews, technical info, databases say IMDB or something that can help me find a title or something I may have forgotten)

 

I suppose I've used em more as "redpohones" -- I know what I want and the retail salesperson says "we'll have to special-order it" - they just wind up doing a glorified web order

 

 

BUT that's just ONE user and ONE type of customer experience, I'm open to others and I realize I am an outlier on some parts (like most folks Don't need a ruggedized phone, most people don't run the audioprogramming I do) or that maybe a different execution of the kiosk idea would work

[sabriel9v]

I don't see anything else happening but an extension of the current path - online digital sales will continue to go up, CD sales will continue to go down, less stores will continue to carry fewer CD's, and eventually the CD market will hit a bottom floor and sit there - places like WalMart will carry maybe the 200 best selling CD's (current and past.) I do not ever forsee a time when people would, en masse, purchase something while they were out, in electronic format when they can do so right now without leaving the house (iTunes, etc.) I do like the new Bandcamp model - you buy the CD online and it gets shipped to you in a few days, but you get to download the CD digitally immediately. I do see that model catching on. I also see the greedy record companies (those who are still in business) pushing very hard to raise online digital prices. iTunes fought it for a long time and eventually caved. Thanks for playing, Apple. And I see more and more artists dumping their labels when their contract runs out. The big name artists will sign promo deals instead, the little name artists will go DIY. That's what my Magic 8 Ball says.

 

You seem to be the type of person who just sings this song...what do we do about free music, how come cd sales are down, why won't more people purchase cds. I see you repeating this same melody over and over again. One day, somebody is going to sit down and labor over these problems and find some sort of solution to solve one of them. Meanwhile you'll still be singing your same song

 

You mentioned the bandcamp thing, thats been going on forever. Amazon has had an mp3 store for years and more people will purchase from itunes anyway because they have ipods and people will inherently believe there are less compatibility issues. Itunes already has that market cornered.

[richardmac]

 

You seem to be the type of person who just sings this song...what do we do about free music, how come cd sales are down, why won't more people purchase cds. I see you repeating this same melody over and over again.

 

 

Repeating? Go back and read what I wrote. "How come CD sales are down" is not a phrase that I used in my post. I was merely pointing out the obvious. I've stopped worrying about why people don't buy as many CD's. Not sure why you feel the need to be insulting.

 

In terms of the Bandcamp thing - Bandcamp is allowing you sell downloads online as well as (now) physical CD's. iTunes does not have the physical CD market cornered, because they don't sell them. People still buy physical CD's via the Internet. I just cashed a check from CDBaby today. The difference between CDBaby and Bandcamp is that, as of right now, CDBaby houses and ships your CD's, and Bandcamp doesn't, but Bandcamp does not charge any fee. Yet.

[sabriel9v]

 

Repeating? Go back and read what I wrote. "How come CD sales are down" is not a phrase that I used in my post. I was merely pointing out the obvious. I've stopped worrying about why people don't buy as many CD's. Not sure why you feel the need to be insulting. In terms of the Bandcamp thing - Bandcamp is allowing you sell downloads online as well as (now) physical CD's. iTunes does not have the physical CD market cornered, because they don't sell them. People still buy physical CD's via the Internet. I just cashed a check from CDBaby today. The difference between CDBaby and Bandcamp is that, as of right now, CDBaby houses and ships your CD's, and Bandcamp doesn't, but Bandcamp does not charge any fee. Yet.

 

 

Who cares? You can do the same thing with amazon and itunes. An independent artist can print up cds at kunaki and sell their digital product through the amazon and itunes stores. Bandcamp can't compete with itunes right now.

 

I want you to critique my idea, criticize it, debate, don't talk about something that already exists and we know it works. Show some foresight and take the points in my thread to the mat!

[richardmac]

OK. Let's have a look at the example post you did, which said, in edited format:

 

1. "You want the new John Mayer record. If you're at Wal-Mart or Target, you would simply hit up a music kiosk, make your selection and voila a zip file or something like it is sent to your e-mail and it contains a digital copy of John Mayer's new album and the artwork. You can do all of this while conveniently shopping for your food, hygiene products and all the other crap you buy at Wal-Mart."

 

Email would not work for some people because their ISP's limit the size of files that are attached to email messages. Employers are notorious for doing this also. So let's mod it and say that it emails you a URL where you can download the CD - a special link for just you. So instead of sitting at my computer and having tons of different online stores to choose from, I'm going to pay money to buy from one online store at a physical store, which will then send me a link? No instant gratification? How in any way, shape, or form is this better for the customer than just going to iTunes or amazon on their own computer? It isn't. Labels have experimented with downloadable albums in places like Walmart already - you buy what is essentially a gift card and it allows you to go back to your computer and download the thing. And this strategy has been a major failure. So I'd argue this has already been tried and it failed.

 

The only way you could make this work is to make the price way lower. Like if I could buy a download card for $5, or download the thing online for $10, I'd buy the card. But you and I both know that ain't gonna happen.

 

2. "If the consumer wants to get Mayer's new cd, but also casually browse for more music, they would go to a traditional mom and pop store and buy a physical copy of the cd. Consumers could browse the aisles, purchase vinyl and in general buy music the way it's been purchased for the past century. The hope is that it will bring additional revenue back into these record stores, but also decrease the physical distribution costs for labels."

 

What few mom and pop stores have survived are very much struggling. I don't see a strategy for turning this trend around. Fewer and fewer people buy CD's - about 25% less per year for the past several years. There won't be any mom and pop music stores soon. How will these stores increase CD sales?

 

3. "I'm not sure if the majors would be the first to bite down on the concept because 1) they'd be afraid to cut out the huge retail chains, but also 2) they lack foresight. I could really see this concept working great for indie labels and if they see enough success the majors will follow."

 

It's not going to work at all because music kiosks in a store don't make sense when people already have something better at home (computers on the net.) The mindset of a store purchase is instant gratification. People will still buy a CD (though in fewer numbers) because they instantly own the thing and they can toss it in the car stereo on the way home.

 

Interesting side note - You mention John Mayer - my wife just bought his new CD yesterday, at Target I think, for $9.99. Go on iTunes and it's $10.99. Or a special version with other ish for $12.99. It's a buck more with zero packaging. It should be the other way around.

[sabriel9v]

 

It's not going to work at all because music kiosks in a store don't make sense when people already have something better at home (computers on the net.) The mindset of a store purchase is instant gratification. People will still buy a CD (though in fewer numbers) because they instantly own the thing and they can toss it in the car stereo on the way home.

 

 

Thats how the mom and pop record stores will continue to make sales because people will always purchase cds and vinyl. One thing they have towards their advantage is holding record release parties and having in store performances. It makes the music more real and adds to the experience of purchasing the album. But I can't answer how the stores will increase cd sales, thats largely a question of how they individually run their business and not something that can be drafted in one giant email and sent to every store in America.

 

 

Email would not work for some people because their ISP's limit the size of files that are attached to email messages. Employers are notorious for doing this also. So let's mod it and say that it emails you a URL where you can download the CD - a special link for just you. So instead of sitting at my computer and having tons of different online stores to choose from, I'm going to pay money to buy from one online store at a physical store, which will then send me a link? No instant gratification?

 

 

I agree with you. This is the biggest flaw within this model, a person can just sit at home and dl via amazon, itunes, bandcamp, reverbnation or wherever and have it sent directly to hard drive and not their email account. The only thing I could say in defense is that there are several people, like my middle aged parents for example, who will almost never purchase music online (unless its for me). They're so used to going into a store (not just a smaller record chain, but any store usually Best Buy or Target) and purchasing a cd. People like my parents are the kind of shoppers who will get music on an impulse buy and think about delivery methods later. They can follow the instructions on a kiosk to set up a quick account and once the account is setup, they will make purchases from that same machine when they're shopping. I suppose they will do it just because it's there and they can lump that digital product together with all the other shopping expenses they've accumulated that day.

 

One major issue I see is that you would need to categorize the machines. Who wants to scroll through 300,000 titles of rock, jazz, r&b, rap, pop, and so on. You would need individual hard drives/kiosks for the different genres.

Ultimately, I view this system as a gamble, but I honestly believe something like it will work.

[slight-return]

 

They're so used to going into a store (not just a smaller record chain, but any store usually Best Buy or Target) and purchasing a cd. People like my parents are the kind of shoppers who will get music on an impulse buy and think about delivery methods later. They can follow the instructions on a kiosk to set up a quick account and once the account is setup, they will make purchases from that same machine when they're shopping.

 

 

I fear (just a fear - not a fact. It probably comes from my anecdotal experiences, just like the thoughts about your folks -- so it's gonna have that bias inbuilt)

the patience level of a shopper used to that retail situation of buying Brick&Mortar and not too patient with online shopping won't have the patience/drive to adopt the kiosk experience (as it has the overhead of setting up accounts, learning to navigate -- which you are doing in public in a kiosk type situation and not have the familiarity of the physical product and, potentially, the retail staff* that they are familiar with in the traditional shopping experience)

 

*Yes, we could ad staff, but that's a big increase in overhead, and in a bad-case scenario that "brick&mortar" style user may just wind up having the retail staff, essentially do all the kiosk navigation for them.