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  • #91
    I dunno, I've read magazines and books, seen movies and even heard from musicians I was related to or friends with when I was a kid and teenager (the 70s and 80s). There was always someone talking about how they were better for not doing what so-and-so did. I'm sure Bob Dylan had fire in his belly and said, "I'm not going to do what those jerks think I should do, I'm going to do what *I* want to do."


    I'm sure he did. I just can't picture him looking down on the guys in The Band because they played cover songs instead of doing their own ****************, you know? Or did they only earn his respect when they became willing to play the songs HE wrote?

    Yeah, a lot of people talk about how they feel better for not doing what so-and-so did. Happens in all walks of life, not just music. Usually it comes from a place of their own insecurity. So people who do that might want to consider trying to reach towards being above it.

    And, to be perfectly frank, I'd have little issue with listening to Dylan talk about what he would or would not do, because he's proven he can be successful with his choices. But the guys who just WISH they could be as successful with their choices? Nah. Just comes across as insecure to me...sorry.

    Asking about why someone talks about why they don't want to do something is funny, because by their stating what they don't want to do, it shows part of the reason why they DO the things they do.


    No it doesn't. It's just an observation.

    People can't do everything, so choices have to be made. Some people are like, "Well, I like this music, but not this, so I'll play the first kind." Others, due to personality, passion or whatever, state it more forcefully as "I'm definitely not doing THAT!" In both cases, you get a sense that the person is focused. In the latter sense, I can see how it would offend *some* people (like yourself). But I can only see it really offending you if it applies to you and you are insecure about what you're doing in the first place. "Hey, I *resemble* that remark!!"


    That's pretty backwards. Seems to me the defensive and insecure one is the person putting others down in the FIRST place.
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    • #92
      If your idea of a cover band is The Band...
      __________
      Your god doesn't exist but my god does and he is all loving. If you disagree with me I'll kill you. - Prince Ea

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      • #93
        If your idea of a cover band is The Band...


        They started out playing other people's music, didn't they?
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        • #94
          They started out playing other people's music, didn't they?


          I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. You're trying to equate cover bands with The Band? WTF? There is no shame in being in a cover band. But you are pretending it is something that it isn't. Let's be realistic here. I absolutely agree that playing covers is a viable road for a musician. One that I rode, as you know, for a good while. But to think of the world of cover bands like, "Well, The Beatles played covers and The Band played covers... therefore I am owed the respect of The Band!"

          It doesn't work that way. You can want it to, but it ain't gonna happen.

          So that's my point. I guess maybe I should shut up and not point out the futility of what you're saying. Because I then in turn am hoping you'll see this a different way and that appears futile. but understand this, I'm not downing anything, I'm only pointing out that for me personally, resenting the lack of respect isn't worth it. If that matters to you, do something you know that will gain you respect instead of wishing it never rained or there were no bad days..
          __________
          Your god doesn't exist but my god does and he is all loving. If you disagree with me I'll kill you. - Prince Ea

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          • #95
            I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. You're trying to equate cover bands with The Band? .


            No, I was simply trying to point out that I doubt Dylan actually has disdain for those who play other people's music or work as professional musicians doing so instead of writing their own "art". The Band was just a backing band for some other dude when he ran across then, IIRC, and then he hired them to be such.

            But to think of the world of cover bands like, "Well, The Beatles played covers and The Band played covers... therefore I am owed the respect of The Band!"


            No one has said that, I don't think. But similarly, to suggest that one only plays their own original music, or only plays covers that they personally believe have a certain degree of artistic merit doesn't earn them the respect of Dylan either, does it?

            I'm only pointing out that for me personally, resenting the lack of respect isn't worth it


            I got that point the first time you made it. Problem is, I'm not resenting anyone. I'm not complaining that there is a lack of respect. Just noting that it exists and therefore I questioned it. I'm just giving an opinion based on observations. I've already stated that. But if you feel the need to keep believing that I do even though I've already told you otherwise....

            If that matters to you, do something you know that will gain you respect instead of wishing it never rained or there were no bad days..


            Doesn't seem to me that I'm the one here complaining about rainy days in the music business or that I'll never agree to playing for money if I've got to put a pair of galloshes to do so, but whatever...
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            • #96
              No, I was simply trying to point out that I doubt Dylan actually has disdain for those who play other people's music or work as professional musicians doing so instead of writing their own "art". The Band was just a backing band for some other dude when he ran across then, IIRC, and then he hired them to be such.



              No one has said that, I don't think. But similarly, to suggest that one only plays their own original music, or only plays covers that they personally believe have a certain degree of artistic merit doesn't earn them the respect of Dylan either, does it?



              I got that point the first time you made it. Problem is, I'm not resenting anyone. I'm not complaining that there is a lack of respect. Just noting that it exists and therefore I questioned it. I'm just giving an opinion based on observations. I've already stated that. But if you feel the need to keep believing that I do even though I've already told you otherwise....


              OK... then I misread your post. Sorry about that.
              __________
              Your god doesn't exist but my god does and he is all loving. If you disagree with me I'll kill you. - Prince Ea

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              • #97
                ... Yeah, a lot of people talk about how they feel better for not doing what so-and-so did. Happens in all walks of life, not just music. Usually it comes from a place of their own insecurity. So people who do that might want to consider trying to reach towards being above it.

                And, to be perfectly frank, I'd have little issue with listening to Dylan talk about what he would or would not do, because he's proven he can be successful with his choices. But the guys who just WISH they could be as successful with their choices? Nah. Just comes across as insecure to me...sorry.

                ...


                By this standard there would never by any new music - ONLY covers - because all of us insecure people would just do covers instead of anything creative...

                I'm successful in life because I do what other people don't.

                I make a living outside music with creativity. Making a simple copy of what someone else has done (musically or otherwise) doesn't interest me.
                Just-Got-Lucky
                ----------------
                My blogs: http://lwgat.blogspot.com/
                My Music: http://www.fall-to-earth.com

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                • #98
                  True Tim,
                  Everyone has their own line in the sand. I was playing with a band that was opening for huge acts like Linda Ronstat, Santana, etc. and then I started doing solo gigs playing flamenco guitar. The band got maybe 50-100 a man per gig and the solo gigs payed an average of 500.00
                  I took a solo gig only to find out the band got a festival gig the same day. I was earning a decent living at my day gig, but the 1-2k a month I was getting for playing made a huge difference as to what I could provide for the wife and kids. I caught a lot of flack for doing the solo gig, and it was a step towards making the money a real part of gigging. I'd always done paying gigs, but the money was always just enough to cover expenses of the gig itself-by the time you factored in the gear, the gas, the time, I wasn't really making any money. But at 500. a gig, I was making money. And i was playing music I loved. The fact that I was playing society gigs, corporates, and weddings did not tip the balance towards the band. I like the music I was playing more than the band's music. They were doing cooler gigs, but i was playing better music. That was the deciding factor. The money was gravy.

                  Once I realized I could earn that kind of money playing, it seemed like that would be the way to go. I put together a trio, and after several years working our way up, we found the band doing the same sort of gigs for the same kind of money per man. I completely understand why a guy would not want to do this kind of work. But I'm 54 years old, and I spent many years playing clubs for gas and gear money.

                  So what's my line in the sand? Playing music I don't like. Paying to play. Playing for nothing. Playing with weak musicians. Hauling tons of gear. Being expected to bring a crowd to a gig. Getting home at 3am. Doing promotion. And a whole lot more. The list gets longer the older I get.

                  Did I get pushed out of shape by the treatment we got at the gig in the OP? No, go back and read it. We were amused if anything. That crap happens in one form or another on many corporate gigs. You just keep playing and keep smiling. As I recall, there's all kinds of BS playing clubs too. Creepy managers, drunks, etc. Main difference to me is the $.





                  Why is this always an issue with you? Let it go, man. Some people don't want to do what you do or what MartinC does and express it that way. Big deal. I know what I personally prefer to do and what I don't want to do. I could go into detail, but I won't.

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                  • #99
                    By this standard there would never by any new music - ONLY covers - because all of us insecure people would just do covers instead of anything creative...

                    I'm successful in life because I do what other people don't.

                    I make a living outside music with creativity. Making a simple copy of what someone else has done (musically or otherwise) doesn't interest me.


                    I get what you're saying, but actually, we wouldn't have ANY music whatsoever. There would be people telling the creative person "That sucks" and their insecurity would take over, they'd agree "yeah, I guess it kinda does," and perhaps one of the greatest songs EVER would be killed before it was even began. I do agree though, if people suddenly collectively decided that they could not create new music to ever match the previous works before that music would be dead and there would be no new music. The proliferation of tribute bands makes me wonder if that is indeed the future. As much as I like tribute bands, man, I hope not...

                    My approach to music is as a creative outlet. The structure is covers, the contents within are passion and creativity. It seems like a lot of bands don't really approach the music that way, they just play what they've always played. When it gets exciting is when they take chances with it, even if they are 'just' covers.
                    (This is my Non-Signature.)

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                    • By this standard there would never by any new music - ONLY covers - because all of us insecure people would just do covers instead of anything creative...


                      Well, THAT'S an odd mis-perception of what I've been talking about. What does talking about one feeling superior doing what they do vs. what somebody else does have to do with creativity? I don't get the connection.

                      Guthrie or Dylan or whoever were incapable of writing and performing his own music without having to express his disdain for guys who played in Broadway shows to do so? I seriously doubt that would be the case.
                      _________________________________________________
                      band websites:
                      http://www.JumpStartYourParty.com
                      https://www.gigmasters.com/Rock/Jump-Start
                      https://www.facebook.com/JumpStartYourParty
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                      • ... My approach to music is as a creative outlet. The structure is covers, the contents within are passion and creativity. It seems like a lot of bands don't really approach the music that way, they just play what they've always played. When it gets exciting is when they take chances with it, even if they are 'just' covers.


                        Me too. I love to mess with arrangements on covers.

                        I think a lot of people's interests (including musicians) gets ossified with age. I grew up with X and now that's it. My wife grew up with Hank Williams, Horton, etc. and while she will listen to some new stuff she isn't happy without Hank and friends.

                        I think this is the genesis (no pun intended) of "tribute bands."

                        To me recorded music gets old after a while - boring. So I always listen to new stuff. Creatively playing stuff on the other hand never gets old because there's always something to mess with.
                        Just-Got-Lucky
                        ----------------
                        My blogs: http://lwgat.blogspot.com/
                        My Music: http://www.fall-to-earth.com

                        Comment


                        • True Tim,
                          Everyone has their own line in the sand. I was playing with a band that was opening for huge acts like Linda Ronstat, Santana, etc. and then I started doing solo gigs playing flamenco guitar. The band got maybe 50-100 a man per gig and the solo gigs payed an average of 500.00
                          I took a solo gig only to find out the band got a festival gig the same day. I was earning a decent living at my day gig, but the 1-2k a month I was getting for playing made a huge difference as to what I could provide for the wife and kids. I caught a lot of flack for doing the solo gig, and it was a step towards making the money a real part of gigging. I'd always done paying gigs, but the money was always just enough to cover expenses of the gig itself-by the time you factored in the gear, the gas, the time, I wasn't really making any money. But at 500. a gig, I was making money. And i was playing music I loved. The fact that I was playing society gigs, corporates, and weddings did not tip the balance towards the band. I like the music I was playing more than the band's music. They were doing cooler gigs, but i was playing better music. That was the deciding factor. The money was gravy.

                          Once I realized I could earn that kind of money playing, it seemed like that would be the weay to go. I put together a trio, and after several years working our way up, we found the band doing the same sort of gigs for the same kind of money erp man. I completely understand why a guy would not want to do this kind of work. But I'm 54 years old, and I spent many years playing clubs for gas and gear money.

                          So what's my line in the sand? Playing music I don't like. Paying to play. Playing for nothing. Playing with weak musicians. Hauling tons of gear. Being expected to bring a crowd to a gig. Getting home at 3am. Doing promotion. And a whole lot more. The list gets longer the older I get.

                          Did I get pushed out of shape by the treatment we got at the gig in the OP? No, go back and read it. We were amused if anything. That crap happens in one form or another on many corporate gigs. You just keep playing and keep smiling. As I recall, there's all kinds of BS playing clubs too. Creepy managers, drunks, etc. Main difference to me is the $.


                          This is a great post, MartinC.

                          Yeah, if you are making 5-10x what you could make in a band, why not? And it's not like you are playing crap you can't stand. I understand someone like guido saying things like a real professional musician can play any music, any time, for any money. Yeah, but I've found that bands on their first few albums almost ALWAYS sound better than a solo artist with some backup guys. The backup guys are the professionals, but they are just playing and creating parts for money. It's a JOB. It's the same as doing bumpers or radio commercials to them, so their vibe is minimal. The band is doing it because they LOVE what they are doing and you can hear that on the recordings. I have always believed that and always will. So, you get to have your cake and eat it too by playing music you love AND getting paid very well to perform it. Fantastic!

                          I've done different gigs over the years and what I found is that I'm most comfortable playing rock music, being the bandleader, doing more than just play guitar by singing lead simultaneously and having the right people in the group that support and encourage what I do, rather than people that put in the minimum effort or worse, try to destroy it. When it's all coming together like this, like it is right now, it's great. I'm hoping it will continue.

                          So, what falls by the wayside? Some of those other lines in the sand: lots of travel (my wife has medical problems, so I need to be around her), playing with different musicians all the time, lots of money in turn for playing songs I can't stand to play, having every single weekend and/or night booked up with gigs, things like that. They are different for everyone.

                          Like you, I'd rather play less gigs for more money. I've been in bands that beat their chest and say "look how many gigs we did over the past several months." Yeah, but how much did you make per night? I'm making almost double or even triple what those bands made AND I get to have time to spend with friends and family. It's working out very well for me at the moment.

                          So, don't think that I was attacking you as some sort of sell-out. Not at all. I wouldn't like to be treated like some slave with someone acting like "I *OWN* you" kind of crap and whether or not that is actually happening, I might interpret it as such. But if I loved the music enough (and the money), I might put up with it for a few hours like you do. I definitely wouldn't if I had to play country all night long *and* be treated as a gorilla in a cage. It would just be a bad experience all around for me then.
                          (This is my Non-Signature.)

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                          • Well, THAT'S an odd mis-perception of what I've been talking about. What does talking about one feeling superior doing what they do vs. what somebody else does have to do with creativity? I don't get the connection.

                            Guthrie or Dylan or whoever were incapable of writing and performing his own music without having to express his disdain for guys who played in Broadway shows to do so? I seriously doubt that would be the case.


                            The inertia of a big, stone wheel always tries to roll over everything else. So a big block of "superior minded" people liking one thing can squash out/make it harder for creative folks interested in something else.

                            Kind of like a lot of folks here interested in "music as a business" versus "muso's."
                            Just-Got-Lucky
                            ----------------
                            My blogs: http://lwgat.blogspot.com/
                            My Music: http://www.fall-to-earth.com

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                            • Kind of like a lot of folks here interested in "music as a business" versus "muso's."


                              Each has to be judged on its own merits. A music-as-a-business operation would be judged as successful based primarily on how well it does as a business, I would think. A "muso" operation would have other criteria.

                              My only gripe ever with the "muso" types are those who put down the music-as-a-business types because they feel it isn't successful on criteria the model never attempts to be. (Or to at least emphasizes as a priority.)

                              I respect the hell of out someone like Madonna for what she's accomplished in the music business. Seems to me she's accomplished virtually every goal she's set out to do. To criticize her because she's never written a symphony would be kinda dumb.

                              Similarly, it would be wrong for me to criticize someone who obviously puts playing what they like to play over how much money they can make with it because they don't make much money with it. I don't think I've ever done that, but if I have feel free to point it out and I'll extend a retraction and an apology.

                              My only *head scratch* with those types is when they talk about how for them it isn't about the money, and then bitch because some club owner just fired them or reduced their pay or they can't find gigs. So yeah, I've probably made comments in those situtations that are somewhat critical.
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                              https://www.gigmasters.com/Rock/Jump-Start
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                              • My only gripe ever with the "muso" types are those who put down the music-as-a-business types because they feel it isn't successful on criteria the model never attempts to be.


                                My only gripe with cover bands types are those that seem surprised they are not respected on artistic merits.

                                The following is not a criticism of cover bands. By and large, cover bands tend not to be interpreters. They tend to emulate. This is based on what I've heard in the performances and what I hear here from a lot of the players here on this board. A large percentage of players claim they go for the "note for note" approach. There is certainly nothing wrong with that and makes sense if you're looking to optimize your return on investment. The investment includes rehearsal time. It has been stated several times in this forum by some, that interpreting or creating new and fresh arrangements is too time intensive.

                                So now we have a conscious move from artistic expression and toward providing a service. Once again, nothing wrong with that. That is a choice, and one I've made at various times. Now David, I can't help but hear some frustration from you in your quote below. I truly understand it and empathize. Really...

                                ...when did it start becoming acceptible for other musicians to do so? When did this attitude of "I only do what I want they way I want to do it, and I'd never sacrifice my art for MONEY, and those that do are somehow beneath me and if you're not doing it for the art, then you aren't doing anything worthwhile" become prevelant in the industry?

                                Fine--play music for whatever reasons please you in whatever manner you choose---that's what it's all about (that's what most ANYthing in life is all about, really...) but to look down upon others with a "I'd never do THAT gig...or play THAT song...or put THAT on..." attitude? What's THAT all about?


                                So what's that all about? It's not right. I agree. It seems unfortunate but inevitable to me. Cover musicians tend to be less artistic and creative. You yourself have said so many times. So a guy who writes his own music and his band are writing their parts, the shallower of them are going to cop an attitude. And it goes back and forth from camp to camp. The disrespect. "Some creativity! The guy can barely play a lead solo!" to "Those guys are fags in their monkey suits and kissing ass!"

                                Now, the OP's attitude seemed spot on. That sounds frustrating, but surely not surprising. Just as some musicians expecting a certain respect and being denied it. It's shallow and it's uncool for these musicians to "put on THAT..." attitude", but frankly a lot of cover musicians will be waiting a while for that respect. Whenever I chose to go note for note covers, I accepted that. That is the trade off. And then you cash your check. It's not fair but it pays.

                                This occasional referring back to the old days, etc. "Hey! They were cover bands!" You know, it was pretty standard for a good musician to interpret. A note for note cover musician can not compare themselves to a classical musician. Or The Beatles doing the Isleys Twist and Shout. They interpret, cover bands don't. Issac Stern is reading note for note and yet his interpretation of a piece will be night and day from Itzhak Pearlman's.

                                This means by definition cover band musicians score a little or a lot lower on artistic merit. That's no mystery. So where did the attitude come from? It's not right, but it's not surprising...
                                __________
                                Your god doesn't exist but my god does and he is all loving. If you disagree with me I'll kill you. - Prince Ea

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